RESTO Project Dog House: 1996 Challenger

[rjcress]

The good news is in the post above. The Challenger engine held together for over 5 hours of use this weekend.

However, I have an issue that has been persistent through the last 3 engine installs and I could use some help sorting out where to start.
When I rebuild the carbs and installed them with the factory settings (1.5 on the low speed and 1/8 on the high speed, with about 31 for pop-off pressure), the engine started quickly with just a little choke (if any) and no throttle.

Sadly, I've removed the engine 3 times since then. I must have bumped something along the way, as after the past 3 installs it takes 10-15 seconds of cranking to get it to start. Choke or no choke seems to make no difference. It only starts when I advance the throttle to 75% or more. Initial idle is rough for about 2 seconds, then it settles in and purrs along at 1500 rpm (in the water).

I don't unhook the cables when I pull the engine. I leave the carbs connected to fuel and controls and set the assembly to the starboard side of the engine bay. So, I assumed that the low speed jet(s) must have gotten bumped and maybe one of them was out of adjustment.

Yesterday, I ran both low speed screws in all the way, then backed them out 1.5 turns... which put them in the same spot they were before... so, no change in behavior.

I'm thinking that the next step is to pull the air box and verify both the high speed screw settings and re-test the pop-off pressure.
I'll also verify that the choke is still connected and working, although I'm pretty sure I checked that a couple of weeks ago.
Any other thoughts on what could be causing this?

Oh, and right before I put it on the trailer last night to bring it home, I pulled away from the dock a couple hundred yards (required throttle to get it started), pulled the DESS key, waited a few seconds, put the key back on, pushed the start button and it started instantly. I did that 3 more times, waiting as much as 15 seconds before restarting, and it started instantly each time. If this carb had a float bowl, I might think that the bowl was leaking, and that it took several seconds of cranking to refill the bowl on a cold start. Since these carbs don't have bowls, I'm not sure where to start.

Also, I've noticed that in the first 5-10 minutes that the engine is running it sometimes boggs a bit when I go from idle to get the boat up on plane. Seems to hang around 4k rpm for several seconds before jumping up to 5k and up to about 6,700 until on plane. Tach shows right at 7k when at full speed. If it has been running for a while longer, then it pretty reliably jumps up to over 5k almost instantly when I give it full throttle and very quickly advances through 6k, to 6,700 as the boat quickly jumps up on plane. I plan to pull the RAVE covers to verify that they are moving freely, and likely will pull the whole assemblies to see how they look. When running normally, the RAVEs kick in around 4,200 and drop off around 5,100 when decreasing throttle.

No idea if those are related, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are.

Thoughts?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

No comments from this corner, but I AM very curious as I seem to have the same issue. What RPM do you go up to when you're on plane? Does your hit all 7k? Mine can't seem to get past 6600. Also mine starts rather hard as well.

 

[rjcress]

No comments from this corner, but I AM very curious as I seem to have the same issue. What RPM do you go up to when you're on plane? Does your hit all 7k? Mine can't seem to get past 6600. Also mine starts rather hard as well.

I thought of you this weekend every time it bogged when trying to get on plane. The bizarre thing is that the bogging was not consistent.


OH! Remembered one more thing... the first time I fired this engine (in my garage, for about 5 seconds), I noticed a tiny bit of fuel dripping off of the starter bolt that goes into the bottom of the engine. Looked like it MAY have leaked from the input line, as the hose was bent at an odd angle from the clamp that holds the hose steady and is bolted to the starter (the clamp rotated when I tightened the bolt). I loosened the clamp, centered it so it wasn't torquing the fuel line, then started it again. I didn't see any gas that time.

At the lake, I leaned in the engine bay for the first 5 minutes that the engine ran and looked at the area where the gas drip had been , and saw no gas. I also checked it the first 5 times I ran the engine, and after I shut it down each time. Never saw any more gas drip or smelled gas in the engine bay.
BUT... since that is the only place that I've seen a gas leak and the symptoms I'm experiencing seem likely to be fuel delivery related, I'm thinking I should probably take the carbs off and give them a thorough once over. I used purple locktite as directed when I rebuilt them, but wonder if one of the screws has wiggled just loose enough that the carbs don't hold pressure in all situations.

 

[dbracela]

I have a similar issue, anxiously awaiting to hear your fix. The only thing I haven't tried yet are new fuel pumps. They're sitting on the kitchen table waiting for the rain to stop.

Glad to hear you got to enjoy the boat for the weekend

 

[rjcress]

I have a similar issue, anxiously awaiting to hear your fix. The only thing I haven't tried yet are new fuel pumps. They're sitting on the kitchen table waiting for the rain to stop.

Glad to hear you got to enjoy the boat for the weekend

Sorry to hear that. They say that misery loves company, but I'd be happier if none of you fine folks ever had to suffer through the problems I've had.
Then again, if none of you ever had issues, then this forum wouldn't be so useful. :facepalm:

 

[rjcress]

Anyone have thoughts before I pull the carbs?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Just for fun, when you have em off, check your RV clearance. I'd be curious to know what it is... Just stick a feeler gauge in there and see what you can wedge in between the RV and cover.

 

[rjcress]

Just for fun, when you have em off, check your RV clearance. I'd be curious to know what it is... Just stick a feeler gauge in there and see what you can wedge in between the RV and cover.

Dude. We may have to talk about what you call "fun"

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Dude. We may have to talk about what you call "fun"

Wouldn't it be fun if that was your problem? (or mine, as I plan to compare your findings to my rig)

 

[rjcress]

Wouldn't it be fun if that was your problem? (or mine, as I plan to compare your findings to my rig)

Yeah, I guess it would.
I would be really surprised also, as Tom at SES said that he checked that, and the issues I've had with starting were on 2 different engines... but hey, anything is possible.

 

[rjcress]

Got the new upholstery from Kieth on Monday.
Been too busy to deal with it so far.

 

[rjcress]

The upholstery is still in the box in my garage. I finally got started putting the new Black Tip covers on GTX seats last night.
I got the back section done and it looks pretty good. Just got started on the front section when I decided it was too late and I was exhausted from the long weekend, so I put it away to finish later. I figured the 2 sections of the GTX seat will be a good warm-up for the Challenger seats. I think I need to do some more reading though, as I'm finding that to get all the wrinkles out I have to pull it really tight. Then the staples want to tear through the fabric instead.
Also, really kicking myself for not removing the carbs yet to send to Tom at SES. He called about a week and a half ago to check on how the latest engine was doing and I described the starting and "loading up" issues from above. He said it sounded like fuel problem and offered that if I sent him the carbs he would go through them for me. I said that I would, but haven't removed them yet. Maybe I'll go do that now before work.

BTW, we got rained out 2 weeks ago and had funeral last weekend, so this past weekend we left the Challenger at home and took the GTX the lake for final shake-down before putting it up for sale. It ran beautifully and now has over 10 perfect hours and 110 miles on the rebuilt engine. I feel comfortable selling it now, so as soon as I finish the seat cover I will detail it and sell it.

 

[jhjesse]

The upholstery is still in the box in my garage. I finally got started putting the new Black Tip covers on GTX seats last night.
I got the back section done and it looks pretty good. Just got started on the front section when I decided it was too late and I was exhausted from the long weekend, so I put it away to finish later. I figured the 2 sections of the GTX seat will be a good warm-up for the Challenger seats. I think I need to do some more reading though, as I'm finding that to get all the wrinkles out I have to pull it really tight. Then the staples want to tear through the fabric instead.
Also, really kicking myself for not removing the carbs yet to send to Tom at SES. He called about a week and a half ago to check on how the latest engine was doing and I described the starting and "loading up" issues from above. He said it sounded like fuel problem and offered that if I sent him the carbs he would go through them for me. I said that I would, but haven't removed them yet. Maybe I'll go do that now before work.

BTW, we got rained out 2 weeks ago and had funeral last weekend, so this past weekend we left the Challenger at home and took the GTX the lake for final shake-down before putting it up for sale. It ran beautifully and now has over 10 perfect hours and 110 miles on the rebuilt engine. I feel comfortable selling it now, so as soon as I finish the seat cover I will detail it and sell it.

Glad you got the new seat covers. Good luck on the installation.
As far as the starting issue, might try running the blower for a couple minutes before trying to start. This gets fresh air into the engine compartment. Also check for exhaust leaks that might be robbing the engine compartment of oxygen.

 

[rjcress]

As far as the starting issue, might try running the blower for a couple minutes before trying to start. This gets fresh air into the engine compartment. Also check for exhaust leaks that might be robbing the engine compartment of oxygen.

Thanks for the tip. I have had the same starting issue persistently while starting when the engine hatch has been open for a while or closed, fan running or not. I haven't seen any exhaust leaks, but will keep an eye out next time it is in the water.

 

[rjcress]

Another thought... Found these in the troubleshooting section of the manual:
"Jet pump cavitation :
• Poor start / acceleration of boat • Trailing edge of impeller is damaged • Check / Replace"
-hmmm... I originally read "poor start" as meaning that the engine took some cranking to get it started. I'm wondering if what they meant is more like "takes longer than it should to go from a stop to getting up on plane".

"Jet pump ventilation :
engine does not react quickly when pushing on throttle lever (assuming that engine is correct)
• Pump improperly sealed to ride shoe; insufficient sealant on the ride shoe or missing neoprene seal
• Retaining screws of intake grate; air comes from inside the boat.
• Retaining screws of ride shoe; air comes from inside the boat.
• Through-hull seal around drive shaft ; air comes from inside the boat"

I think this gives me a few other things to check.

*Question* I've pulled the engine several times over the course of this year, and been reinstalling the jet pump with the same neoprene seal. ie. it didn't have a neoprene seal at all when I got it. I put a new one in when I installed the engine after the initial rebuild. I've had the jet pump off probably 4 more times, and have been reusing the seal. Should I have used a new neoprene seal each time?
I'm thinking that I may have just sent the carbs off to be checked out, when the real problem could be something simple like I have bent impeller vanes and/or a poorly sealed pump because I've been reusing the neoprene seal.

I had not really considered any of these as potential causes because I thought that any air leak would cause cavitation, which would result in very quickly getting high rpms, but little forward thrust. I've been seeing somewhat the opposite... decent thrust, but _sometimes_ very slow reaction to throttle increases.

Thoughts?

 

[Guest_User]

doubtful, longer /slower acceleration times could happen from a impeller that has to tall of a pitch for it`s application. If your impeller is stock, I doubt that issue is your problem... At least Tom will go thru your carbs and they will be good when you get them back, so that`s ONE thing to cross off the list if it did not fix your issue... but this time, you won`t FRY and engine...

good luck Homie!

(off topic)
Hey RJ, finally went out today with the boat! ran great! we cruised the Trent River, then back under the bridge to New Bern and down the Neuse River before we turned around... I lost my Depth gauge, come to find out it came off the epoxy... this must have happen while the boat was in transit from NJ to NC...

 

[rjcress]

Glad to hear you got the boat out and were able to explore the new area.

I'm running a Skat 17/22 swirl impeller, but I don't think it is a mismatched impeller. Sometimes it does fine, other times advancing the throttle doesn't result in a corresponding increase in RPM... other times it does.... so an intermittent issue.

 

[Guest_User]

Glad to hear you got the boat out and were able to explore the new area.

I'm running a Skat 17/22 swirl impeller, but I don't think it is a mismatched impeller. Sometimes it does fine, other times advancing the throttle doesn't result in a corresponding increase in RPM... other times it does.... so an intermittent issue.

skat 17\22 seems to be the right prop listed, however our challenger 1800 did not like them... I`ll sacrifice a few mph anytime for good/great acceleration and planing out with using a Solas over the skat anytime... but hey that`s just me.

I`d have to say rule out your fueling issues first, bc the RAVE are all clean and functioning correctly yes?

 

[rjcress]

skat 17\22 seems to be the right prop listed, however our challenger 1800 did not like them... I`ll sacrifice a few mph anytime for good/great acceleration and planing out with using a Solas over the skat anytime... but hey that`s just me.

I`d have to say rule out your fueling issues first, bc the RAVE are all clean and functioning correctly yes?

I looked for a Solas, but found a Skat for 1/2 price and am happy with it. I don't think either is a bad choice.

I feel the RAVEs kick in around 5200, and they drop off around 4300 on the way back down.

I feel when

 

[racerxxx]

skat 17\22 seems to be the right prop listed, however our challenger 1800 did not like them... I`ll sacrifice a few mph anytime for good/great acceleration and planing out with using a Solas over the skat anytime... but hey that`s just me.

I`d have to say rule out your fueling issues first, bc the RAVE are all clean and functioning correctly yes?

The Challenger I repowered this spring got the Solas 15/23's (Andy's recommendation) and that boat pulled nice and the holeshot was awesome. If and when I decide to break the bank the Speedster will be getting a pair of them, but for now my originals are still like new. But then again, 1/2 price beats a sharp stick in the eye!

 

[rjcress]

The Challenger I repowered this spring got the Solas 15/23's (Andy's recommendation) and that boat pulled nice and the holeshot was awesome. If and when I decide to break the bank the Speedster will be getting a pair of them, but for now my originals are still like new. But then again, 1/2 price beats a sharp stick in the eye!

(read in the voice of Homer Simpson while mesmerized by a donut) "mmmmmmmmm. Speeeeeedster"

I've almost got the Challenger done and stumbled across a 98 speedster on CL for $3500. With the total refurb, new engine, new mats, new upholstery, new jet pump & impeller, new stereo, etc, I'm hoping to get more than that for the Challenger.
I would say that there may be a speedster in my near future, but I think my wife would have me committed.

But seriously... it would be awesome... at least until the men with the white coats showed up.

 

[racerxxx]

(read in the voice of Homer Simpson while mesmerized by a donut) "mmmmmmmmm. Speeeeeedster"

I've almost got the Challenger done and stumbled across a 98 speedster on CL for $3500. With the total refurb, new engine, new mats, new upholstery, new jet pump & impeller, new stereo, etc, I'm hoping to get more than that for the Challenger.
I would say that there may be a speedster in my near future, but I think my wife would have me committed.

But seriously... it would be awesome... at least until the men with the white coats showed up.

Oh, I'd blow out the Challenger for the Speedster on any day that ends in "Y".

 

[Guest_User]

Oh, I'd blow out the Challenger for the Speedster on any day that ends in "Y".

Oh jeez!:facepalm::willy_nilly: :lols:

RJ, maybe take up another hobby, say making boxes out of match sticks, cheap too!... J/K...

you need another project like a 3rd foot... :lols:

 

[rjcress]

Oh jeez!:facepalm::willy_nilly: :lols:

RJ, maybe take up another hobby, say making boxes out of match sticks, cheap too!... J/K...

you need another project like a 3rd foot... :lols:

Agreed. Not sure what I was thinking. :facepalm:
Anyhow, the Speedster seller didn't want to answer pretty much any of my questions, just kept saying "come see it and check it out for yourself" when I would ask even simple stuff. It was a 4.5 hour round trip drive to see it, so I eventually gave up on the idea.

In other news...
Tom at SES rebuilt my carbs and I should get them today or tomorrow. Y'all might find this email exchange interesting:
Tom to Jeff:
"Hi Jeff
got carbs done we just ran them they are working perfect. the mixture screws are set so all you have to do is set your idle, they were in really bad shape we had to replace both high speed bypass's and both needles the pop off was virtually 0 lbs. they are now at 38 lbs, i believe that this was your hard stating issue.
Thanks Tom"

Jeff to Tom:
"Bad in what way? Dirty?
They were rebuilt and had good pop-off a couple of months ago. Would love to know how they went down-hill so fast."

Tom to Jeff:
"The seats were grooved horribly I couldn't get them to hold any pressure even with the heaviest spring.
also one of the diaphragms had a whole in it. high speeds were out to far and the check valves in the fuel pump
were bad. the fuel pump side had replacement bolts that were two short and were holding with one or two threads."

So, it appears that either the rebuild kit I got from OSD was complete crap, or I did a terrible job on the rebuild.

Very anxious to get the carbs installed and see how it runs.

 

[Guest_User]

sounds like good news RJ, yeah ya never know how the previous owner or work done to the boat affected any of the parts. I can understand the seats being ugly from wear and water corrosion etc etc...

good luck, looks like you be up and running soon...:thumbsup: