RESTO Project Dog House: 1996 Challenger

[rjcress]

And the lake report:
I actually only ran the boat about 1/2 of the time this weekend, my friend drove it the rest of the time while I was driving the big boat.
The Challenger ran so well that I've actually been waiting for and expecting something to go wrong. Probably have about 3.5 or 4 hours of running time on it and maybe 10 gallons of gas. The only sorta bad thing was that the lower starter allen bolt wiggled loose and fell out. I could have swore that i put blue threadlocker on it, but I didn't see any residue. The other 2 bolts held the starter in fine and I put the bolt back with ample threadlocker when I found it.

For once, I FINALLY didn't have to pull the boat home to fix something. I left it on the trailer at my parent's/brother's lake house since this is a short week and we will be back there soon.

Now to find a convenient supply of the appropriate full synthetic oil. The local Walmart had it all winter, but is always out now.

 

[Clirry]

Convenient supply of the appropriate full synthetic oil? Does it meet seadoo requirements?

 

[rjcress]

Convenient supply of the appropriate full synthetic oil? Does it meet seadoo requirements?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.
I've identified a few options for oil that meet SD requirements as API-TC. I was researching this last night and read on here and another forum where several people state that you should use synthetic oil in any SD Rotax motor bigger than the 720... which includes this 787. Tom at SES (engine shop) also said to use synthetic. I don't have a SeaDoo dealer that is convenient to get XPS-II. I had been using the Quicksilver API-TC oil from Walmart, but read last night that this is not full synthetic (gray bottle) and will gum up the raves. At my local Walmart is has been a crap-shoot whether they have the black bottle full synthetic in stock. However, I just noticed on walmart.com that they say I can get it via "site to store" within a day... so maybe that is my most convenient option.

I thought I had another gallon on my big boat... which it turns out I did not, so I was running low on oil at the lake this weekend. The Marina sells Amsoil, but only had "HP Marine Synthetic", which confused me with a dual TC-W3 AND API-TC ratings. I used that and it seemed to work fine, but I read that this is similar to the Quicksilver in the gray bottle... it is API-TC rated, so OK, but not the ideal choice. The marina doesn't stock Amsoil Interceptor, which I've read is the best choice.

I even considered signing up as an Amsoil distributor, but something about the way they sell doesn't "feel" right to me. I have wholesale relationships with a variety of companies through my business, and NONE have any sort of annual fee to sell their products.

 

[jhjesse]

Most people i know just order in bulk from the net.
Here are a couple of places:
How close are you to Greenville, NC.? - Overton's Marine is located there.
http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Doo-XP-S-Stroke-Synthetic-Gallons/dp/B001KI2MIY
http://www.jmcamper.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=256
http://www.parkeryamaha.com/xp-s-synthetic-oil-gallon.aspx
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ski-Doo-Can...ic-Engine-Oil-Case-of-3-Gallons-/180982192523
http://www.xtremepowersportsstore.c...E-SYNTHETIC-OIL-detail.htm?productId=17165278
There is probably more.

 

[suke]

Most people i know just order in bulk from the net.
Here are a couple of places:
How close are you to Greenville, NC.? - Overton's Marine is located there.
http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Doo-XP-S-Stroke-Synthetic-Gallons/dp/B001KI2MIY
http://www.jmcamper.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=256
http://www.parkeryamaha.com/xp-s-synthetic-oil-gallon.aspx
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ski-Doo-Can...ic-Engine-Oil-Case-of-3-Gallons-/180982192523
http://www.xtremepowersportsstore.c...E-SYNTHETIC-OIL-detail.htm?productId=17165278
There is probably more.

He's pretty far from Greenville. I have 2 walmarts( actually 3) local to me. One carries the black bottle stuff all the time. They've now changed the packaging, but apparently it's still the same. They have the old ones still in stock last I checked though.

 

[rjcress]

He's pretty far from Greenville. I have 2 walmarts( actually 3) local to me. One carries the black bottle stuff all the time. They've now changed the packaging, but apparently it's still the same. They have the old ones still in stock last I checked though.

Yeah. Greenville is too far. Good thought though.
Looks like Xtreme has the best deal. 3 gallons for $122 shipped via USPS parcel post.
With tax, 3 gal of Quicksilver synthetic will be $124 at Walmart via site to store. I think I'll get a couple at Walmart for this weekend (hope to be running my Challenger, the GTX and my Dad's new SeaDoo quite a bit) and order the XPS for ssslllloooowwww USPS delivery.

Seriously though, what is this stuff made of, Unobtainium mixed with gold dust?

 

[jhjesse]

Yeah. Greenville is too far. Good thought though.
Looks like Xtreme has the best deal. 3 gallons for $122 shipped via USPS parcel post.
With tax, 3 gal of Quicksilver synthetic will be $124 at Walmart via site to store. I think I'll get a couple at Walmart for this weekend (hope to be running my Challenger, the GTX and my Dad's new SeaDoo quite a bit) and order the XPS for ssslllloooowwww USPS delivery.

Seriously though, what is this stuff made of, Unobtainium mixed with gold dust?

Yep...heavy on the gold dust.

Be careful mixing brands. Certain brands mixed together will gel.

 

[Guest_User]

Yep...heavy on the gold dust.

Be careful mixing brands. Certain brands mixed together will gel.

haha, I drove past Overtons this morning on te way home to New Bern.

drove from 6:30 PM and got there 9:30 towing a POS Uhaul 6x12...

anyways, you guys and your oils, Bah! just fork over for the good stuff and stop screwing around... what`s next RJ, another blown motor...:facepalm::lol:

 

[suke]

haha, I drove past Overtons this morning on te way home to New Bern.

drove from 6:30 PM and got there 9:30 towing a POS Uhaul 6x12...

anyways, you guys and your oils, Bah! just fork over for the good stuff and stop screwing around... what`s next RJ, another blown motor...:facepalm::lol:

Woah! When did you move to NC? What brought you down here?

 

[racerxxx]

haha, I drove past Overtons this morning.

Andy, you were about 2 miles from my sisters place. If you're coming back up do you think you could swing by and pick up my BIL's 87 Ford Ranger? Save a brotha a trip down and back? He's taunting me with scrapping it and I want it. Unfortunately it's a no start, gonna need to trailer it. :Angel:

 

[rjcress]

haha, I drove past Overtons this morning on te way home to New Bern.

drove from 6:30 PM and got there 9:30 towing a POS Uhaul 6x12...

anyways, you guys and your oils, Bah! just fork over for the good stuff and stop screwing around... what`s next RJ, another blown motor...:facepalm::lol:

Glad you made it and welcome to NC.
I'll stop by next time my wife visits her dad just outside of New Bern. You can take me for a ride in your pristine jet boat so i can see how a better-than-new boat operates.
I think you will find the people MUCH more hospitable and easy to get along with than those on the Jersey shore. Just don't go to the drug store down town and ask for a Coke. They don't think that is funny.

... and by "the good stuff", what are you referring to? I'm not trying to save money by going with an inferior oil... I'm OUT of oil and looking for something that I can run that won't damage my engines. Having trouble finding any locally at the moment.

 

[rjcress]

No luck tracking down XPS oil within range to pick it up for this weekend, so yesterday I ordered 3 gallons of XPS-II from the xtremepowersportstore link that jhjesse posted. $121.47 shipped via USPS parcel post.
I also picked up 2 gallons of Mercury Quicksilver synthetic from Wally-world to get me through the weekend while waiting for the XPS. I'll mix a little of each in a cup before I pore it in the Challenger and see if it appears to gel any.

I found it interesting is that Quicksilver has changed the bottle and label on the full synthetic PWC oil, as Suke mentioned. I was a bit baffled to see that neither the new label or the website that you go to when you scan the QR code on the label list API-TC. It says:
"Recommended for use in all two-stroke personal watercraft engines. Can be used in oil-injected or pre-mix applications." and "Exceeds JASO FD and ISO EGD"... but I don't know if/how JASO and EGD relates to the API-TC rating.
This thread on the oil site sheds a little light on it, but I'm still a touch confused.http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=772276

This one closes with an apparent answer from Mercury,
http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?59454-Looks-like-Quicksilver-is-changing-the-bottle/page2 but the Mercury guy never actually says that it meets API-TC, so I've emailed for clarification.

I find it baffling that they took off the warning not to use where TCW3 is required and the API-TC specification.
The SKU on the new and old bottle is the same, btw.

Anyhow, I bought the last 2 of the old black bottles and will stay away from the new gray bottled full synthetic until I've done some research to confirm it is the same.
Although this should be a moot point for me, as I've got the XPS on the way and don't expect to burn through more than 2 gallons of oil this long weekend.

Anyhow, I'm THRILLED to have a week where I can post about oil instead of posting about another engine failure.
I guess that will be next week....

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Don't jinx yourself man. I need to make it out to your lake one of these weeks and see how your boat runs. I just want another basis for comparison for getting mine just right. You've done all the necessary pump work. I'm still holding off on getting a new prop, which is the ONLY thing I haven't changed. I've tried other props, but they were for my XP and I'm not convinced that they're close enough in pitch to rule the prop out as the cause of my woes. Did you ever buy new rave valves?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

PS, on the topic of oil, I buy Amsoil from a local guy who has a little warehouse full of the stuff. He always has my 2-stroke oil on hand and it's the same price as the walmart stuff. I'll bet there's a guy or a business like that in your area too. There is a $20 annual "membership" they charge you to be able to buy the stuff, but at the rate we use oil, it comes out to like one shipping cost.

 

[rjcress]

Don't jinx yourself man. I need to make it out to your lake one of these weeks and see how your boat runs.

Sure. Just give me a week or two notice so I can bring the Challenger home from Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia.

I just want another basis for comparison for getting mine just right. You've done all the necessary pump work. I'm still holding off on getting a new prop, which is the ONLY thing I haven't changed. I've tried other props, but they were for my XP and I'm not convinced that they're close enough in pitch to rule the prop out as the cause of my woes. Did you ever buy new rave valves?

So far I'm happy with my Skat 17/22 swirl, but don't have any other experience to compare it to.
I did not buy raves... just cleaned them up and reinstalled.

 

[rjcress]

PS, on the topic of oil, I buy Amsoil from a local guy who has a little warehouse full of the stuff. He always has my 2-stroke oil on hand and it's the same price as the walmart stuff. I'll bet there's a guy or a business like that in your area too. There is a $20 annual "membership" they charge you to be able to buy the stuff, but at the rate we use oil, it comes out to like one shipping cost.

I considered getting the membership, but am so thoroughly turned off by their sales model (too MLM for me), that I wont. It just seems so scammy. If their product really is so awesome, then they shouldn't sell it like snake oil.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

If their product really is so awesome, then they shouldn't sell it like snake oil.

Man, I couldn't agree with you more on that. If the guy's warehouse wasn't so close and convenient, I'd probably look for another alternative. Cutco knives are another amazing product that has a lousy sales model. I guess they make a lot more money this way, I don't see why else they'd sell like this.

 

[Guest_User]

Glad you made it and welcome to NC.
I'll stop by next time my wife visits her dad just outside of New Bern. You can take me for a ride in your pristine jet boat so i can see how a better-than-new boat operates.
I think you will find the people MUCH more hospitable and easy to get along with than those on the Jersey shore. Just don't go to the drug store down town and ask for a Coke. They don't think that is funny.

... and by "the good stuff", what are you referring to? I'm not trying to save money by going with an inferior oil... I'm OUT of oil and looking for something that I can run that won't damage my engines. Having trouble finding any locally at the moment.

Thanks, we just got back to NJ 4:30am today. I`m beat... well at least where we live here in NJ the people are nice for the most part. I`m not on the beach, we are on 2 bays and a creek...lol... so I don`t have to deal with that Benny mentality directly... most of the time they cause problems on the roads and in establishments with their Northern attitudes...
I do see plenty of PA people in NC tho, wow...lol...

quicksilver is decent oil, in fact most oils will do the job, the key points are some protect better than others... Manufacturers oils such as Mercury, I wouldn`t hesitate at all to use the quicksilver in a mercury powered boat.
years ago I`ve done extensive research on automotive 4 stroke, 2 stroke oils, and and just about every ones brand of oil filter. we actually had a decent group of guys discussing this for a few years, bc it took a long time to acquire and test data and filters, anyways in regards to Amsoil, I don`t really care about the snake oil scam that most think it is, I base mine on results. however I do know what works and what doesnt work for "me". simply got tired of looking for oil and traveling from place to place only to find the shelves empty.
I usually always purchase oil online.
Mystik lubricants made by Citgo = good stuff IMHO
Amsoil good stuff IMHO

heck I even liked Yamalube also made by Citgo, and most riders hate it... my machines were always taken care of, so no oil raves or BS to ruin my day...

Klotz and other racing oils all have their purpose, are they good oil, absolutely...

again, the key is to choose the correct formula, your price point and just go with it...

I doubt you`ll get anything to gel in a short time. prolonged use in bulk can cause issues with incompatible oils.
most of the areas of concern were the oil filters themselves besides how clean or well lubricated any oil claims to be...

as far as Amsoil, well I`m not going to cheerleader, or ring the dinner bell, and I don`t care how the Amatuzio family made their fortune, all`s I care about is it kicked M1`s azz years ago, was the first real synth and continues to evolve and get better and better IMHO... the price point is good for the selection between automotive oils and Interceptor compared to others. and as others have stated, the initial membership quickly gets absorb in the saving if you plan on purchasing more than one case a year. and us 2 stroke users, we do that in style!...lol...
Their tier`d system is a paycheck/credits for the sponsors and at least they are up front about it. at least I knew before I started buying their products about 25+ years ago...

so in the end use what works for you and is easily attainable... that`s the ticket!

Glad you got your boat back together and running!!!
it will be some time before we can get out on the water, so much to do!
and the New Bern area and the community where we live is absolutely awesome! we can`t wait to start enjoying the parks, downtown, and the river...
we already had the both Shiba`s in Lowes shopping for stuff for the home...lol...

Ride on brotha!

 

[rjcress]

Ran well today, once it started.
I put the DESS key on, get 2 beeps, press the start button and hear the solenoid click behind me... and nothing.
After about 10-15 pushes the starter spins normally and the engine starts.
Same routine the other 3 times that I started it.

Tomorrow I will disconnect the power from the hot side of the the starter solenoid and test resistance across the solenoid terminals with the start button depressed and not. I expect to get infinite resistance when start button not pressed, and also most of the time when the start button is depressed.
I hope so, at least, as a solenoid replacement will be easier than changing the starter.
If it is a bad solenoid and I can't get a new one quickly, can I manually jump the solenoid to start the boat, if the DESS key is in place? Hmmmm. Would probably create a small firework sized spark, so maybe not the best idea.

I figure it is either that or the starter.
Of course, my spare starter is at home.

On a funny note, a couple of weeks ago the bottom end of the engine locked up. My Father was with me and we were riding from my marina to his house right after a big storm and right at dusk. Should have been a 10 minute trip, but ended a few HOURS later when SeaTow delivered us back to my dock at the marina in 37 mph winds that had built up while we were stranded. Today, as I was passing the spot where the engine had started to slow down before the bottom end locked up, the engine was purring like a kitten... then it died instantly.
It is safe to say that my heart sank as I said "Oh no! Not again!"... and a few other things.
After a few seconds i realized that as I was bouncing around in the heavy chop and swells I had knocked the key off of the DESS post with my left arm.
That was a relief!
I put the key back on the post and pushed the start button over and over until the starter started spinning and restarted the engine. No other issues. whew!

 

[rjcress]

Was thinking while walking the dog this morning... if one of the starter bolts wiggled loose last weekend, I suppose that either the bolts holding the positive or negative leads on starter could have also come loose. I'll check them as well.

 

[rjcress]

No such luck... starter connections are all tight and clean.

I can measure the voltage on the hot side of the solenoid (12.68V, just like at the battery), hear the solenoid click when i press the start button, but am not getting voltage on the other side of the solenoid.

What is baffling me is that it passed the continuity test. I removed the red wire from the battery to the solenoid and the other red wire from the other side of the solenoid, then pushed the start button. Resistance dropped to less than .2 ohms (1.0 ohms is what the manual says is a bad solenoid).

The battery is reading about 12.68V right now.
The control leads coming out of the MPEM are reading 11.8V when the DESS key is in place and the start button is pushed.
I don't know enough about the starter solenoid to know if that is a normal control circuit output voltage, or if that voltage is insufficient to fully active a working solenoid. The manual says that it should read 12V, if not the MPEM may be bad.
If I short across the solenoid posts, the starter fires every time.

So to add a twist to this situation, I found that if I press the start button without the DESS key in place, it turns the gauges on (as it is supposed to). The starter seems to fire almost every time...or maybe 75% of the time... if I quickly put the DESS key on after the gauges are on, then press the start button.
Also noticed that if the radio is on when the starter button is pushed, the radio gets quiter and goes from clear to static until the button is released... even if the starter doesn't fire.

I've also tested the DESS key and start switch, per the manual... both passed. I was thinking that the starter solenoid is failing, but now I'm not sure. I'm wondering if the battery may be bad. A bad battery would cause strange behavior in the electrical system, right?
The battery was in the boat when I bought it and is labeled "4/12". It was dead when I got it, but appeared to take a charge fine. I guess I should have it load tested.

 

[m.colley]

had a similar experience in the last two weeks and load tested the battery myself after replacing starter solenoid to no avail. Charge your battery to full charge and reinstall, using your meter check your voltage across terminals, you should see something in the 13.4 volt range or so, next check voltage across terminals while trying to turn engine over, if your voltage drops below the10.5-11v range, you might want to invest in a new battery. Seadoo's don't tolerate low cranking voltage well.


Martin

 

[rjcress]

The past few days I've been pressing the start button just before I put the DESS key on and the starter spins almost every time I press the start button (after the DESS key, that is). That is the good news.
The bad is that it seems to be getting harder to start. The starter cranks for sometimes 10 seconds or more before it fires at all, and then I have to give it gas to get it going. I changed the plugs yesterday to a different old set and will see how it does today. (note to self: order more spark plugs ASAP) Starter sounds like it may be spinning a bit slow, so I'm wondering if it is related to my theory about the battery being weak. Still at the lake, so haven't had a chance to take the battery to be load tested (we are in a rather remote location). I'm carrying my jumpstart pack now, just in case. I think I'll go hook it up and see if that makes a difference.

Tested compression right after a long ride yesterday with both plugs out and it was 140 MAG and 145 PTO.
Will go test it again soon while it is cold.

Also, seems to be reving slower than it did before when I am starting from a stop and trying to get up on plane.
Lost about 100 RPM at idle as well. If the engine craps on me again I may just jump in the water and swim away.

Got almost 10 hours on the engine since the last install, btw. Still running pre-mix with Quicksilver synthetic at about 64:1 to supplement the oil injection system. I am almost out of oil, so I can't do this now, but when I get a couple more gallons I'll fill the injection oil tank and fill the gas tank. Then I'll run the boat a while and see how much gas and oil is needed to refill both tanks. This should give me an idea what the average ratio of gas to oil is from the injection system. As it is, i can see that the injection system is using oil, and it appears to be quite a bit, but I don't have a good way to know if it is injecting enough, or if I need to keep adding oil to the gas.

Also interesting, xtremepowersports cancelled my XPS oil order and I got a cryptic system generated status update message. Had to read through the variable fields to figure out that the order was cancelled. When I called they seemed surprised that I got that email instead of the one written in a more narrative form that explained that they are having hazmat shipping challenges and can't ship any oil right now. So, I guess I won't have XPSII waiting for me when I get home.

In other news, the boat is working pretty well once I am up and running. Seems to pull to the right a bit at speed, so I many need to adjust the steering linkage. Otherwise, having fun with it.

 

[Guest_User]

why are you still adding oil to the fuel tank???

with 10 hours on the engine it is surely broken in by now...

maybe your 100 rpm loss is from the extra oil and not enough fuel in the carb settings...

maybe your idle is low bc of the same, or new engine requires a little more idle screw adjustment.

remember 1500 rpm in water, and better than 3000 rpm out of water, I have seen it go to 3300 out of water with and idle speed of 1500.

depending on pitch, an aftermarket impeller will have more load than stock, so there could be a change in idle speed for some right there...

 

[rjcress]

In short, since Tom at SES said to remove the drive shaft from the oil pump and just do premix, and I instead left the drive shaft in, I want to verify that sufficient oil is being provided by the oil pump before I stop pre-mixing. i know it is using oil from the injection tank, just not how much it is using.

I adjusted idle speed a couple of times in the first hour of this engine's breaking when I was running 32:1 premix + whatever the injection system was adding. Expected it to speed up slightly as it broke in and I scaled back the premix, but it slowed by about 100 RPM instead.

I think the next step is to remove the air box so I can check the carb screw settings and make sure they are still at the factory settings. I doubt they've vibrated and changed, but that seems like the logical next thing to check.

Oh, and it occurs to me that I need to read the RAVE section of the manual more closely to understand how they work, as it could be that the difference I'm feeling in acceleration has to do with the RAVEs not working properly.