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RESTO Project Dog House: 1996 Challenger

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Pale Rider said:
That`s an indication your carb setting were off right there somehow, or the oil pump was not adjusted correctly... oil displaces fuel. running to heavy oil concentration can be to lean for sure...
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I was thinking that since I was running it so fat on oil before, that I would have to adjust the idle post break-in... so it didn't alarm me that I was losing RPM as I weened off of pre-mix. Looking back, shouldn't weening off of the extra pre-mix have increased rpm instead of lowering it?
 
Sorry to hear about the motor. I admire your positive attitude with all the adversity you’ve faced. No matter what the situation you’ve managed to keep pluggin’ away and haven’t let it get you down.

Summer’s just getting underway and I’m sure you’ll have the boat squared away mechanically very soon and be back on the water with it.
 
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Pulled the jet pump and it spins freely... so it is the engine that is locked up, not the jet pump. :(

So much for this being a relatively simple refurb.

I don't know enough about the internals of the engine to comment with any authority on why it is likely to have happened. But I agree with the comments about lots of people running with oil injection pumps and not having problems. That would appear to suggest that the oil pump is not a time bomb waiting to go off. At the same time, I get what Tom said and can follow that logic.
Moving forward though I will leave the pump off and just run pre-mix like Tom says.
SBT also recommends that the injection pump be blocked off and use of pre-mix instead.

I'm not ready to throw SES under the bus just yet. They have made this as pain free as possible for me. I know that the first re-rebuild was my fault for running it too lean and I told Tom as much. They honored the "no questions asked" warranty and got it back to me FAST. Tom told me he would turn it around quickly this time too. I don't know if today's failure is because of the oil injection system failing, because SES only did the top end on the re-rebuild, or something else. What I do know is that the damage has been done and worrying about blame won't get me back on the water. SES is doing what they can to get me back on the water fast and that is what is important to me right now.
 
Damn...that is terrible news about your motor. Wish Chattanooga was closer to you. I would come over help you out.
:D You could take off in my boat while the misses and I hang out on your big boat. :thumbsup: She would love that. That boat is sooooooo cool. :drool5:

I agree that the engine should've been completely gone through. So many times over the years I have read on this forum where someone did just a top end, then a couple months later have to do a complete overhaul. I just don't think a top end only is the way to go...all or nothing.

good luck!!
 
jhjesse said:
Damn...that is terrible news about your motor. Wish Chattanooga was closer to you. I would come over help you out.
:D You could take off in my boat while the misses and I hang out on your big boat. :thumbsup: She would love that. That boat is sooooooo cool. :drool5:

I agree that the engine should've been completely gone through. So many times over the years I have read on this forum where someone did just a top end, then a couple months later have to do a complete overhaul. I just don't think a top end only is the way to go...all or nothing.

good luck!!
Click to expand...

I didn't protest the top-end-only because the whole thing had just been rebuilt a couple of weeks earlier and it only had 2 hours of use on it. I don't know enough to say whether running lean and burning up the pistons would damage the bottom end, and relied on SES's diagnosis. I am speculating that something in the bottom end may have been damaged when the top end melted down, as I don't think I did anything wrong this time. However, I understand Tom's logic that the oil injection pump could be to blame.

If you are ever up this way (SW Virginia) we can go anchor the big boat in a cove, fire up the grill, get out the kayaks and noodles and chill for the day. :)

Terrible news would have been if I didn't have Boat US insurance and was not going to be reimbursed for the $450 tow last night, or if Sea Tow wasn't available at Smith Mountain Lake (it wasn't until the past year or so), or if SES said that they only honor the no-fault warranty once. As it is, this is inconvenient and a bit of a PITA, but it could be far worse. No one got hurt, the boat didn't sink, and I am getting quicker at engine swaps... so I won't complain.

Complaining or getting negative won't help anything anyway. May as well enjoy the family (at the lake for a rare extended family get together, watching my kids play with all of their cousins) and be thankful for the time we spend together. :)
 
The boat is just a toy, go have fun with your family and forgetaboutit! You will get to it soon and we all learn something new everyday.
That big boat is bad azz!!! Lucky you! I know I didn`t spend enough time on the family`s SeaRay :(,

try and find out what failed and why...

if you are going premix, then remember to remove the oil pump drive (plastic piece) and install a BO plate. Keep your oil tank for the RV bearings and just remove the injection lines and cap the bottom of the tank for the injection supply line. also cap the rotary valve cover oil injectors and remove the oil cable portion... fatten your lows and highs just a bit...

good luck RJ, hopefully someday we`ll get to meet up and ride!:cheers:
 
You guys are sooooooo spot on with the attitude and family values. There is nothing better that spending time with the family, because time is fleeting. Someday I will explain.

RJ, you hit it on the head. The energy produced from the engine has to go somewhere, so when the piston let go that energy being transferred to the crankshaft was done in an unusual manner therefore causing unusual stress on the crank and bearings. Sometimes the damage is obvious and sometimes not so much. The not so much damage is what concerns me. That is why I always advocate for full rebuilds. JMHO

Enjoy your weekend. Happy FD.
Let us know what SES finds...
 
Got back from Cub Scout camp with my son LATE Weds. night. Confirmed that SES received the engine on Weds. Waiting on word of what they find and how they plan to move forward.
 
Sent an email to SES when I posted the note above, just got this response:
"Got it ripped apart spun rod bearing and started spinning other rod bearing will be done next week."

This should be interesting, as I am taking a group of 4 Korean interns from my martial arts school up to the lake for the weekend. REALLY wanted to have the little boat available for skiing and such.
If I get the engine back in time to take the boat, I'll be in break-in mode and am not sure I would even want to use it and risk another break-down with guests on board.

Oh well. This project has had more than it's fair share of SUCK, but it sure was awesome when it worked. :)
 
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Tom says it will leave SES via UPS Wednesday and he is "Replacing crank cleaning everything basically whatever it needs will be new!".

Also, on the topic of the Oil Pump, Tom says:
"When you reinstall engine leave out plastic oil pump drive shaft. Reconnect everything as if you where going to use it. run a half of tank of oil for rotoryvalve shaft.
Mix fuel 32:1"
... and that I do not need a "block off kit"... which makes sense since his solution doesn't remove the pump... just disconnects the drive shaft from the pump.

So, if it gets to me on Friday, then I can stay up late and get it re-installed so I can take it Saturday morning when I take the interns to the lake. At least if if breaks again I'll have a bunch of young, strong guys to paddle for me so I don't have to. :)
Or maybe I'll just leave it at home and plan on taking the big boat out one day, and staying at the marina so they can hang at the beach the other day. It just ticks me off thought as I wanted to take them skiing and the other ski boat is down for a lower-unit oil leak that the mechanic said was fixed, but isn't. :(

I think I'll also see if I can get the GTX put back together this week. Every other time I've said that I didn't do it... now it is OFFICIALLY summer, I have to hurry up and get it done. Although, since I got it in pieces, I'm sure I'll have a bunch of stuff missing that I have to order.
Grrrrrr. If I had just done the Challenger engine install right the first time, then I would have both of them done by now.
 
Man, I feel your pain. My challenger is also on its 3rd engine since I got it, but it's still not right. Now it just doesn't seem to have any power again. Last time, this was due to rave plungers being melted. This time, that's not the case. Only thing I changed was glue up the cracks where the ride shoe can inhale air and release it into the pump stream. IDK what its deal is, but it takes forever to plane out. Just pushes water for a minute before hopping up on plane w/ 3 medium weight ppl. I too am late to the summer calling. I've just put together my 2nd ski and haven't even started my modded X4 project. Might not even get to it this season at this rate. How did this happen? Where does the time go?
 
Also, on the topic of the Oil Pump, Tom says:
"When you reinstall engine leave out plastic oil pump drive shaft. Reconnect everything as if you where going to use it. run a half of tank of oil for rotoryvalve shaft.
Mix fuel 32:1"
... and that I do not need a "block off kit"... which makes sense since his solution doesn't remove the pump... just disconnects the drive shaft from the pump.
hmmm, well I`m not knocking Tom`s suggestion, but he is one voice. personally I`d be very wary of anything with that particular engine...
why did it fail again.
If you are going premix why would you leave the oil pump on? if for some unknown reason the pump leaks, the lines leak, whatever reason and you run the tank dry, say good bye to the RV bearings... and frankly with your luck I wouldn`t chance a thing...

many many many people run a BO plate , home made or bought and don`t leave chance to anything...
I`m not certain why Tom would say 32:1, when even the good Doc here recommended 40:1 in other threads. I`m with Doc on this one...
good oil and 40:1 will do it just fine...

you can`t look at this project as being negative with being behind the ball with so much wrong. look at it positively whith how far you have come, yet still a ways off to make it reliable...
no offense Homie...:cheers:

good luck!:cool:
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Click to expand...
 
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JMHO
Leave the oil pump connected. The engine didn't fail because of the oil pump. Sea Doo/Mikuni oil pumps rarely fail. The lines going to the cylinders become brittle and break, or the oil filter never gets changed. I believe as I stated before the crank bearing failed because of unusual energy transfer from blowing a piston, or they were defective to begin with. This is one of the main reasons I don't like just top end rebuilds.

With that said, I hope you have good luck this time. Third time charm!! :rofl:
 
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jhjesse said:
JMHO
Leave the oil pump connected. The engine didn't fail because of the oil pump. Sea Doo/Mikuni oil pumps rarely fail. The lines going to the cylinders become brittle and break, or the oil filter never gets changed. I believe as I stated before the crank bearing failed because of unusual energy transfer from blowing a piston, or they were defective to begin with. This is one of the main reasons I don't like just top end rebuilds.

With that said, I hope you have good luck this time. Third time charm!! :rofl:
Click to expand...

I hear ya, and don't disagree... but for now I will follow the advice of the guy doing the warranty rebuilds.
 
Holy crap! Trying to wrap up the engine install in the GTX DI this week has made me absolutely LOVE the Challenger. I don't know what sort of miniature bodybuilder contortionist with magic tools they expect to work inside the tiny PWC hull. I'm on about 12 hours now for stuff that should have taken about 4.
Odd as it sounds, I'm actually looking forward to getting back in the CAVERNOUS Challenger engine bay. Heck, even a twin would be a treat compared to the PWC with the 951 DI squeezed in it.
thanks for indulging my venting. :facepalm:
 
rjcress said:
Holy crap! Trying to wrap up the engine install in the GTX DI this week has made me absolutely LOVE the Challenger. I don't know what sort of miniature bodybuilder contortionist with magic tools they expect to work inside the tiny PWC hull. I'm on about 12 hours now for stuff that should have taken about 4.
Odd as it sounds, I'm actually looking forward to getting back in the CAVERNOUS Challenger engine bay. Heck, even a twin would be a treat compared to the PWC with the 951 DI squeezed in it.
thanks for indulging my venting. :facepalm:
Click to expand...

hahahaha, try working on a 4tec in the ski`s. removing exhaust log bolts, or even modding is a real treat!:lols:
 
I emailed Tom to see if the motor went out yesterday. It did. Tracking # shows it is at the local UPS hub... so i called to see when I can pick it up, instead of waiting for delivery tomorrow. The lady that called me back said that they MAY be able to find it by mid-day tomorrow. I told her to cancel the "hold" and have it delivered tomorrow as scheduled. I thought they ran the "tightest ship in the shipping business", but apparently, they aren't as tight as the commercials might have you believe.

Finished most of the GTX engine at lunch today. Airbox is in, intake tubes, jet punp and seat support aren't... waiting to see what I have to take out and re-do before I bolt the non-critical stuff down.
I cranked it with the plugs out and it spun fine. Beeps were weak, but the buzzer is a common issue with 13 yr old SeaDoos, so not overly concerned. I've got to get it back on the trailer so i can hook it to the hose in the driveway to test fire it. Not likely to get to that tonight, as I've got other commitments, and need to clean up the Challenger so maybe I can get the engine in Friday night & take it with me Saturday morning. Not sure if I want to deal with break-in when I'll have guests with me though, so I may leave them both at home. (grrrrrrr).
These project boats have become like a 2nd job. I knew they would require work and time, but I had dramatically underestimated how much of each. I can't keep staying up until 4 or 5am working on the SeaDoos, working my job all day, etc. I'm getting tired.
Fingers crossed that the GTX is right and doesn't require tearing it down again, and that the Challenger is finally sorted out.
REALLY don't want to tear into the GTX again. With the tight quarters that was rather unpleasant. I was leaning towards selling the GTX once it is running. I think I'll do that, if for no other reason than to make sure I don't have to work in the tight quarters again.
 
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rjcress said:
These project boats have become like a 2nd job. I knew they would require work and time, but I had dramatically underestimated how much of each. I can't keep staying up until 4 or 5am working on the SeaDoos, working my job all day, etc. I'm getting tired.
Fingers crossed that the GTX is right and doesn't require tearing it down again, and that the Challenger is finally sorted out.
REALLY don't want to tear into the GTX again. With the tight quarters that was rather unpleasant. I was leaning towards selling the GTX once it is running. I think I'll do that, if for no other reason than to make sure I don't have to work in the tight quarters again.
Click to expand...

well if it is any comfort, I have over 550 hours by myself into our challenger 1800 and still counting!!!
 
rjcress said:
I emailed Tom to see if the motor went out yesterday. It did. Tracking # shows it is at the local UPS hub... so i called to see when I can pick it up, instead of waiting for delivery tomorrow. The lady that called me back said that they MAY be able to find it by mid-day tomorrow. I told her to cancel the "hold" and have it delivered tomorrow as scheduled. I thought they ran the "tightest ship in the shipping business", but apparently, they aren't as tight as the commercials might have you believe.

Finished most of the GTX engine at lunch today. Airbox is in, intake tubes, jet punp and seat support aren't... waiting to see what I have to take out and re-do before I bolt the non-critical stuff down.
I cranked it with the plugs out and it spun fine. Beeps were weak, but the buzzer is a common issue with 13 yr old SeaDoos, so not overly concerned. I've got to get it back on the trailer so i can hook it to the hose in the driveway to test fire it. Not likely to get to that tonight, as I've got other commitments, and need to clean up the Challenger so maybe I can get the engine in Friday night & take it with me Saturday morning. Not sure if I want to deal with break-in when I'll have guests with me though, so I may leave them both at home. (grrrrrrr).
These project boats have become like a 2nd job. I knew they would require work and time, but I had dramatically underestimated how much of each. I can't keep staying up until 4 or 5am working on the SeaDoos, working my job all day, etc. I'm getting tired.
Fingers crossed that the GTX is right and doesn't require tearing it down again, and that the Challenger is finally sorted out.
REALLY don't want to tear into the GTX again. With the tight quarters that was rather unpleasant. I was leaning towards selling the GTX once it is running. I think I'll do that, if for no other reason than to make sure I don't have to work in the tight quarters again.
Click to expand...

If you decide to sell, let me know. I could be interested in a matching ski to go with mine. The misses and I seem to like the cruiser skis a little better that the Challenger 1800. With that said, I still want to keep the boat.
 
The engine is installed. I ran it for about a minute before I put the jet pump on. Seemed to do well.
Taking it to the lake in the morning. Fingers crossed. :)
 
Found this on my PC and realized I didnt' post it Friday:
I always seem to spill oil in the bilge when removing the engine. Cleaned the bilge last night so it will be ready when the engine gets here this afternoon.
Also swapped in some stainless screws where I previously used "brass" screws to hold the new battery tray down. Turns out they were brass colored steel screws... and they rusted within a few DAYS. :facepalm:
 
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