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RESTO Project Dog House: 1996 Challenger

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Found a Nylon Y connector at Lowes that worked. Towed the boat to the lake last night. Will be putting it in the water soon.
Sad that my dock is full this year, so no open slips to tie up the jet boat UNDER COVER while tuning the carbs. Big storm headed my way this afternoon, so I may get rained on today. :(
hmmm, my parents have a boat on a lift the next dock over. Maybe I can raise theirs and pull the jet boat in under it... at least then i can get under cover while i work.
Wish me luck gang. REALLY optimistic that the fuel system work will have solved the low speed/surging issues.
 
well. mixed results.
At first, the jet boat ran OK at low speeds, but wouldn't get past about 3800 rpm or plane. No worries, that is what I expected since the high speed carb jets were set really rich. Turned the low speed jet needles to 1.5 turns out, high speed jet needles in so they they are just 1/4 turn out, set the idle speed and it ran great. We cruised around the dock for a while at planing speeds, then turned to head out a bit further... and it sputtered and died.
Found that the oil injection pump bleeder screw had wiggled itself loose and filled the bilge with a layer of oil. Just lovely. i don't think I'll forget to tighten that properly again.

But, I'm sure that didn't kill it, as I''m running such a strong pre-mix that it doesn't need oil injection.

Looks like it died of fuel starvation. The new clear fuel filter that I put in the supply line before the carbs is empty. I cleaned or replaced all of the fuel system components this week. However, jhjesse advised late in the week that the fuel selector valve really should be replaced, not cleaned, as it has some internal parts that can't be serviced and often fail. I actually found a SD dealer pretty close to home (didn't know about them), but they didn't have the fuel selector. anyhow, i'm guessing the fuel selector is at fault here.... so off to the SeaDoo dealer here at the lake to see if they have a new fuel selector.

I guess the other likely suspects would be:
-a leak in the fuel circuit so it is sucking air instead of fuel
-the fuel pump isn't working

**anyone have other thoughts or ideas?

Really pumped at how it ran before the fuel dried up though. :)
 
Doh! the SD dealer closed 27 minutes ago.
Maybe i can bypass the fuel selector to isolate whether the fuel selector was making a difference.
 
Hooked the fuel line from the carb directly to the "on" port on the fuel baffle... bypassing the fuel selector and spin-on filter.
No joy.
I've pulled the plugs and verified that each has spark.
I also pulled the spark arrestor and see that there is gas/oil pooling in the spark arrestor housing. That implies that fuel delivery may not be the problem.
Also shot some "starting fluid" in the intake while cranking and it did nothing.
It sure acts like it is not getting any spark at all... although I see a robust spark when I pull the plugs and ground them to the plug holes in the head.
Not sure what to do now.:confused:
I'll try a different set of spark plugs, mainly because I'm out of other ideas.
 
New spark plugs did not help.

I noticed that the red light beside the picture of an oil can, which is located on the fuel gauge, lights up whenever I'm cranking. Is this normal? Is it possibly in a protected "won't start because of an oil problem" mode as a result of the oil pump bleeder having fallen out earlier?
I know I'm groping here, but I'm lost on why it won't fire.
 
I put another gallon of oil in the oil tank last night. The oil warning light no longer lights up red. Still no joy.

I'm fresh out of ideas & have to pack the boat up & pull it home in about 6 hours.
Anyone with ideas, please share them so i can try while it is in the water. :)

-Series of events before it died:
engine rebuilt by SES. Has run about 2 hours prior to this trip, but on the old carbs, was surging and only wanted to run well when the high speed carb jets kicked in

Fresh rebuild of both carbs this week. low speed needles @ 2 turns out, pop-off at 32psi, high speed needles at 2 turns out

fuel selector valve sprayed out with carb cleaner & blown out with compressed air

fuel baffle removed, screen cleaned

inline fuel filter installed between spin-on filter and carb inlet

new spin-on filter installed

new oil injection filter installed (this is where I forgot to tighten the bleeder screw... it was only hand tight and fell out)

it ran on the gas that was in the boat when i bought it... gas was from august and was stabil treated in Dec. however, i syphoned 15 gallons out and replaced with fresh 92 octane before the last outing. So, roughly 30% old, 70% new.

pre-mixed at 50:1 or stronger (more oil)

test fired on the trailer... took a few tries to get the fuel system primed, but once the gas was flowing it fired and ran just above idle for 10 sec before i shut it off.

the next day at the lake, after probably 10 sec of cranking it started. Ran fine as long as i kept it just above idle. had to let it warm up for a few minutes before i could bring it to idle to change from neutral to fwd or reverse... but within 5 minutes I was able to move the boat about 500 yards through the no wake area from the boat ramp to my dock. idle speed was around 1k and it would sometimes die at idle, but if i kept it at 1,100, it ran great. Shut it down for 15 min before going out for a ride outside the no wake area.
First time outside the no wake area it did good at low speeds, but wouldn't get to 4k rpm, even at full throttle.

At the dock, adjusted idle speed screw to get 1,100 rpm at 0 throttle. turned in the low speed screws to 1.5 turns out, turned in the high speed screw to 1/4 turn out.

2nd time outside the no wake area it bogged a bit for the first 5 seconds or so of 1/2 throttle, then picked up rpm and got us on plane. Ran around for 5 min or so going up and down from idle to 85% throttle. then going from idle up to get back on plane it felt like it was bogging a bit for a couple of seconds, then ran strong for 3 seconds, then started losing power (throttle position constant at around 75% through this) and died. hasn't started since.

Bilge had a layer of oil floating on the inch or two of water in the bottom. Got towed in.
Checked the fuses in the MPEM while being towed. All fuses looked good.

Once at the dock, found that the oil pump bleeder screw had wiggled loose. Couldn't find the screw, but had a spare oil pump assembly with me, so installed the spare screw. (found the original screw in the bilge later)

Changed to fresh plugs after a few attempts to restart... the "old" ones (less than an hours use) were damp, but looked fine.

Noticed that the clear fuel filter between the spin-on and the carbs had only 1/2 cm of gas in it. i remember looking at it in my garage after the test fire and it was over 1/2 full, and even totally full at one point. As i cranked it, the inline filter emptied and did not refill. So i assumed it was a fuel starvation problem.

I had been warned that the fuel selector could fail, while still passing compressed air, and that the o-ring in the spin-on filter could leak. so, I Removed the fuel line from the "on" port on the fuel baffle.
Removed the output fuel line from the spin-on filter and connected it to the "on" port on the fuel baffle (bypassing the entire fuel selector and spin-on filter)

Now the inline fuel filter sits at about 1/4 to 1/3 full and doesn't completely empty when cranking.
I've since pulled the spark arrestor and see that after cranking for 15-20 seconds, there is a pool of gas/oil in the low point of the spark arrestor housing. When i cranked it with the spark arrestor out, it sprayed a mist of gas/oil in the engine bay. So, I think fuel is being delivered. Not sure why it isn't being sucked in the engine though.

I tried shooting a quick blast of "starting fluid" in the spark arrestor both before and during cranking. It did not fire.
so, at this point I'm thinking it is acting like it isn't getting a spark. so I pulled the plugs and checked for spark again and both still spark.

Held a paper towel over the open plug holes while i cranked it. PTO side spit out some gas, mag side didn't. I'll try this again. Even if only one cylinder were getting fuel, i would expect the other one to fire, at least occassionally. i'm not getting any firing right now.

while typing this I see that jhjesse suggested checking the fuel pump diaphram. I may do this shortly, although the fact that the starting fluid didn't make it fire really makes me think this isn't a fuel starvation issue after all.

To say that i'm baffled really doesn't do this justice.
I keep thinking that there must be some sort of safety circuit... like something triggered by the oil tank level sender showing the level dropping so quickly. Or something like the head temp gauge that causes it to not run.... but any option i can think of, i would expect that the safety circuit would cut the spark. So, since i see the spark, I'm thinking that it isn't a safety circuit cut-out.

With the oil feed bleeder out i think the obvious suspect is that the cylinders are fried and I don't have compression. I haven't wanted to consider this since I an running a strong pre-mix ... but I guess I should see if anyone here at the marina has a compression gauge I can use.

If it wasn't obvious before, I am not a 2 stroke or Rotax expert. I'm going to keep reading the shop and operator manuals this morning in hopes of better understanding all of the systems that could be at play here.
 
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Looks like it died of fuel starvation. The new clear fuel filter that I put in the supply line before the carbs is empty. I cleaned or replaced all of the fuel system components this week. However, jhjesse advised late in the week that the fuel selector valve really should be replaced, not cleaned, as it has some internal parts that can't be serviced and often fail. I actually found a SD dealer pretty close to home (didn't know about them), but they didn't have the fuel selector. anyhow, i'm guessing the fuel selector is at fault here.... so off to the SeaDoo dealer here at the lake to see if they have a new fuel selector.

I guess the other likely suspects would be:
-a leak in the fuel circuit so it is sucking air instead of fuel
-the fuel pump isn't working

**anyone have other thoughts or ideas?

Really pumped at how it ran before the fuel dried up though. :)[/QUOTE]




Are you sure the filter/water seperator O ring is seated properly?? I would double check it and use a small amount of vaseline and reseat.
Maybe recheck the fuel pump diaphram and make sure it doesn't have a small hole in it?????
 
just a few things to consider when trouble shooting...
stop spraying ether or starting fluid in the engine, this is NG for 2 strokes, it will wash the oil off the cylinder walls...

Your carb adjustments were way off in the begining and I see that you corrected them a bit. Since you have way more oil than necc with premix and oil injection you will need to adjust the carbs again when there is only injection providing oil to the engine.
Your idle speed sounds to low. I believe it should be around 1500 in water and around 3K out of water...

def check the compression before proceeding to rule that out...
follow procedure in the shop manual for all cable adjustment including full pull, you don`t want to bind the throttle blades and stress the cable.

when your looking in the carbs, can you see the RV turning when cranking?
when you rebuilt the carbs, you also installed new pump diaphragms? from what I saw earlier your model does not have remote pumps?

why did you add another inline fuel filter? these pumps arent "that" strong and don`t provide a lot of PSI to begin with...

sometimes if not always, the fuel filter is hardly full, seeing 1/2+ the volume is ok... as long as it flows and continues to flow.

good luck, hope you find the gremlins...
 
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just a few things to consider when trouble shooting...
stop spraying ether or starting fluid in the engine, this is NG for 2 strokes, it will wash the oil off the cylinder walls...
Noted, thanks.

Your carb adjustments were way off in the begining and I see that you corrected them a bit. Since you have way more oil than necc with premix and oil injection you will need to adjust the carbs again when there is only injection providing oil to the engine.
Your idle speed sounds to low. I believe it should be around 1500 in water and around 3K out of water...
Understood. The break-in guides i read said to go strong on the oil... not planning to keep it this way.

def check the compression before proceeding to rule that out...
Heading to the parts store now to get the gauge.

follow procedure in the shop manual for all cable adjustment including full pull, you don`t want to bind the throttle blades and stress the cable.
Will do.

when your looking in the carbs, can you see the RV turning when cranking?
Will check that as soon as the downpour stops.

when you rebuilt the carbs, you also installed new pump diaphragms?
Yep. here is the kit I used:
http://osdparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_free_shipping_info&cPath=1&products_id=38

from what I saw earlier your model does not have remote pumps?
This is what my carb mounted pump looks like (before cleaning & new check valves):
SeaDooChallenger_dog_house(146).jpg

good luck, hope you find the gremlins...
Thanks!
I'd say that you have NO IDEA how much it helps just to have folks commenting and giving ideas...but I suspect that you and the others that are contributing know exactly how bad it feels to feel lost like i do at the moment.
Thanks everyone for reading my long posts and commenting.:thumbsup:
 
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Thanks!
I'd say that you have NO IDEA how much it helps just to have folks commenting and giving ideas...but I suspect that you and the others that are contributing know exactly how bad it feels to feel lost like i do at the moment.
Thanks everyone for reading my long posts and commenting.:thumbsup:

It took me a long time to go thru everything systematically and the sick feeling every time I found something that could have been prevented from the PO. he was simply one person who should have not owned this boat... Armor All does not keep the boat going...lol...

the worst feeling is when you find something wrong, the first thought is, it`s going to cost an arm and a leg to get it right...
For us, I was either going to fix it and ride it or it would have become a planter in the front yard... and that wasn`t an option...

hang in there...:cheers:
 
FINALLY stopped raining. Confirmed that rotary valve is spinning when the engine turns.
While raining, my son cleaned the outside of the big boat, and I unwinterized the engines.
Both of the big 454s fired up and ran nicely. :hurray::hurray:
I might have had to drive straight to the liquor store if either of the big boat engines didn't work.
 
Well, I am not happy about this at all, but it appears I have the answer.
According to the compression gauge that I just picked up at AdvanceAuto, the #1 cylinder compression in my Starboard 454 in the big boat is 130.
The mag cylinder in the challenger is around 20, and the PTO cylinder is about 100.
I unscrewed it and re-seated the gauge a couple of times and always got the same reading.
So, looks like I'll get to test the "no fault, no questions asked, yours goes to the front of the line" warranty rebuild at SES.
I'll cross check this with another compression gauge, but since it reads the expected value on the 454, I think the gauge is correct.

Looks like I get to paddle the boat to the boat ramp, load it up and take it home now.
Anyone want to take bets on how long until I have the engine back from SES?
 
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Well, I am not happy about this at all, but it appears I have the answer.
According to the compression gauge that I just picked up at AdvanceAuto, the #1 cylinder compression in my Starboard 454 in the big boat is 130.
The mag cylinder in the challenger is around 20, and the PTO cylinder is about 100.
I unscrewed it and re-seated the gauge a couple of times and always got the same reading.
So, looks like I'll get to test the "no fault, no questions asked, yours goes to the front of the line" warranty rebuild at SES.
I'll cross check this with another compression gauge, but since it reads the expected value on the 454, I think the gauge is correct.

Looks like I get to paddle the boat to the boat ramp, load it up and take it home now.
Anyone want to take bets on how long until I have the engine back from SES?

Oh NO! say it isn`t so! :facepalm: can you look into the cylinder with a flexible LED light? and at least have a peak?
I`ll bet that massive air leak from the gasket did it... dayum...

which gauge did you get from AA? OTC, Star, SunPro, Actron...

gee whiz wheezer, that sucks... feel for ya bro!...
 
Damnit man that sucks!! :facepalm: :banghead:
Hopefully SES will be true to their word and get it fixed for you ASAP at NC.
Too bad it could not have been something simple.

Man I hate it for you. Let us know how things turn out with SES.
 
Oh NO! say it isn`t so! :facepalm: can you look into the cylinder with a flexible LED light? and at least have a peak?
I`ll bet that massive air leak from the gasket did it... dayum...

which gauge did you get from AA? OTC, Star, SunPro, Actron...

This is the gauge I bought:
Sunpro Professional Compression Tester Kit
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...ional-compression-tester-kit-sunpro_9090005-p

I'll try to get a peek in it before i send it, but opening the head invalidates the warranty... so I won't be doing that.
 
Too bad it could not have been something simple.

What could be more simple than a failed piston ring?
I don't know that is the problem, but that is my guess.
Unless Tom at SES says I can remove the head without invalidating my warranty, I may never know.
 
As you might guess, I wasn't in the best mood after confirming that the 2 hour old engine is dead, paddling the Challenger back to the boat ramp (several hundred yards), and towing it over the mountains.
When i got home tonight my wife greeted me with "Buying that was a mistake!"
Not "I missed you", "glad you made it home safe"... not even "hi"

Some one point me to the all night liquor store...:puke:
 
This is the gauge I bought:
Sunpro Professional Compression Tester Kit
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...ional-compression-tester-kit-sunpro_9090005-p

I'll try to get a peek in it before i send it, but opening the head invalidates the warranty... so I won't be doing that.

no need to remove the head, look in thru the spark plug hole... I doubt it`s the rings bc the boat ran pretty good before yes? and you did the normal break in procedure with cool down periods yes?
so I`m going to say the air leak caused it to be lean and burned the ring land. you`ll know if you see it, the piston edge will be melted...

the one I have is very similar to this:
image.php
 
on a separate note, I finally found the wiring diagram for my Challenger. Not sure how I had overlooked the Shop Manual Supplement... but there it is... hiding on pages 40-41
 
Your're going to remove the exhaust manifold before shipping it back to them right? Just look right in the exhaust port, you'l see the damage clear as day.
 
What could be more simple than a failed piston ring?
I don't know that is the problem, but that is my guess.
Unless Tom at SES says I can remove the head without invalidating my warranty, I may never know.

LOL...Yep a busted piston ring is kinda simple. What I meant was something like a leaky fuel line, or fuel selector valve...something simple you could quickly replace and be on your merry way.
 
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