Sad News Blown Engine

[xintersecty]

A couple of weeks ago, I had posted about metal flakes in the oil filter. So I took it out for a test drive. I got about a quarter mile away from the landing and lost power. As I turned back the engine shut down (seized) and roared no more.
:banghead:

I am sad...

I had surgery that Monday and had to wait a couple of weeks to heal. Tonight I finally got the guts to see what's wrong. There is a lot oil in the bilge. I can't see what's broke. So I started removing the super charger and will continue to remove parts until I can see what's wrong. Otherwise I am getting ready to remove the engine.


OK, I might swap engines. I might rebuild it. It will have to wait. Anybody got any recommendations? I don't have the specialty tools for the valves.

I have a 4-tech 215.

 

[pete63]

thats bad news............
just take off what you can and try locate the damage, remove head etc. new project

 

[rcguy]

Wow.....sorry to hear that your engine died. How many hours and were the ceramic washers changed? Unfortunately it could be anything that went but we all know one thing, it will be expensive to fix. Please keep us informed.

 

[xintersecty]

It has metal washers. I took the super charger off last year and discovered that. I willing to bet that's still good. Unless it's the needle bearing that went. It could have been a sodium head. My bet at this point something related to the oil system. When the motor died, it took about 10 seconds. So it gave me fair warning...kinda?

Has anybody dealt with this shop? http://www.seadooengineshop.com/seadoo-4-tech-engines-and-parts/

 

[rcguy]

If I remember correctly you bought that Seadoo not too long ago and it had about 80 hours on the engine. You changed the supercharger washers, installed a new Solas 14/19 impeller, new wear ring, oil changes and filter changes, etc. You did all the right things to maintain the Seadoo and are rewarded with this blown engine. That really sucks!


I have come to the realization that these high reeving engines are prone to catastrophic failures due to previous owners lack of proper maintenance, poor engine design by the manufacturer, inferior engine parts (ceramic washers, sodium valves, timing chains and oil pumps, plus a host of other engineering design problems that Rotax will never admit too). Also engines that red line at 8000 plus just don't last long, especially in the salt water environment. I don't like being pessimistic but what happened to you, Mike Brown and others just can not be ignored!

 

[xintersecty]

If I remember correctly you bought that Seadoo not too long ago and it had about 80 hours on the engine. You changed the supercharger washers, installed a new Solas 14/19 impeller, new wear ring, oil changes and filter changes, etc. You did all the right things to maintain the Seadoo and are rewarded with this blown engine. That really sucks!


I have come to the realization that these high reeving engines are prone to catastrophic failures due to previous owners lack of proper maintenance, poor engine design by the manufacturer, inferior engine parts (ceramic washers, sodium valves, timing chains and oil pumps, plus a host of other engineering design problems that Rotax will never admit too). Also engines that red line at 8000 plus just don't last long, especially in salt water environment. I don't like being pessimistic but what happened to you, Mike Brown and others just can not be ignored!

This boat had seen a lot of abuse. Considering I pain 8K for it. I have put in about 1K in repairs over the past three years including buying CANDOO. So all I have to say yeah it sucks however I am still happy with the circumstances. I have an other seadoo with the same engine (pwc) and it works hard. On the boats, I think you stay closer at redline than the PWCs.

Maintenance or lack off by prior owners is really a big deal. So you called it RCGuy (btw do you fly RC?). I think these boats and motors will last however you need to take care of them and live on a nice fresh water lake, GRIN.

I just got through reading a burn thread on SES by the 2 stroke guys. So once I buy an engine lift and get the motor out, I will find out what's wrong and rebuild it. These are really awesome motors considering what hell we put them through.

 

[rcguy]

Yes I do fly remote controlled airplanes and have been flying most of my life. Just another expensive hobby like boating. Over the years I have flown nitro,gas and electrics from sail planes to helicopters. Today, I specialize in electric only and fly 3D and pattern planes. Now back to Sea-Doo's.

I try to take care of my 2008 Challenger that I bought 16 months ago with 44 hours on it. The boat was in nice shape but not used or maintained properly. Had to change washers to steel and a host of other upgrades. Hopefully all problems were caught in TIME and only TIME will tell.
Regards,

Russ (rcguy)

PS: better days are a coming.

 

[pwgsx]

That sucks man, sorry for the loss. I just sold my boat and the more I am seeing stuff like this I am happy its gone. Wonder if you dropped a valve OR you had a major oil leak.

 

[Albysure]

All my buddies with doo's including me have from small to major issues like your having...bottom line is seadoo's blow...there junk and that's why they left the boating indusrty...sucks cause there design in looks is nice...sorry for you guys in denile I'm just feeling bad for xintersecty and my good friends here in the panhandle...me and my friends are worried ever time we go out if there's going to be a issue... Sale that piece of crap and get a Yamaha

 

[xintersecty]

All my buddies with doo's including me have from small to major issues like your having...bottom line is seadoo's blow...there junk and that's why they left the boating indusrty...sucks cause there design in looks is nice...sorry for you guys in denile I'm just feeling bad for xintersecty and my good friends here in the panhandle...me and my friends are worried ever time we go out if there's going to be a issue... Sale that piece of crap and get a Yamaha

All boats have problems. Granted I choose to buy a problem boat and for sure I got a good price on it. And that's ok. I also have a 2007 RXT with the same motor and it rocks. That PWC was very well cared for and has more hours than my boat. So I am not saying their junk, it's I got a boat that has been poorly maintained by the prior owners.

In a way they have not left the boating industry with motors being supplied to other boat vendors and a large PWC market share. Then again I wish I had the cash to spend 35K on a new yamaha boat, well I don't. So i have stay within my boating budget. And once I get this motor fixed, I will be rocking for a long time as I will have control over the final product.

 

[rcguy]

Albysure, I have concerns also. Is this the day my Rotax blows up and is it going to cost more money to fix than it is worth. I agree it is not a good feeling to have every time you go boating. I disagree that the Sea-Doos are junk (semi-junk maybe) but if my engine blows due to some catastrophic failure that the designers at Rotax caused then it would be junk. I know one thing for sure, " This will be my last purchase ever of a BRP product, new or used, and this includes other brands that use the Rotax engine. You can take that to the bank."

I also owned a Seadoo Sportster 2003, that was I sold about 18 months ago and the boat was running well. Soon after the sale I was accused of selling the new owner junk because it had a major failure about 3 months after I sold her. If you are familiar with the Sportster, it had a Rotax 155 hp engine that was not supercharged. I hear it was an oil pump failure and it was my fault it failed. I told the new owner I was sorry that it happened and had no way of knowing the future. I also told him, I didn't build the engine and screw off.

The way I feel now, I should have kept my 21 ft Aqua Sport center console with a 115 Yamaha 4 stroke with less than 80 hours on her. No diving into cold water to clean out the Sea-Doo intake so you can go more than 3 mile an hour and overheat. Live and learn.

 

[Albysure]

Albysure, I have concerns also. Is this the day my Rotax blows up and is it going to cost more money to fix than it is worth. I agree it is not a good feeling to have every time you go boating. I disagree that the Sea-Doos are junk (semi-junk maybe) but if my engine blows due to some catastrophic failure that the designers at Rotax caused then it would be junk. I know one thing for sure, " This will be my last purchase ever of a BRP product, new or used, and this includes other brands that use the Rotax engine. You can take that to the bank."

I also owned a Seadoo Sportster 2003, that was I sold about 18 months ago and the boat was running well. Soon after the sale I was accused of selling the new owner junk because it had a major failure about 3 months after I sold her. If you are familiar with the Sportster, it had a Rotax 155 hp engine that was not supercharged. I hear it was an oil pump failure and it was my fault it failed. I told the new owner I was sorry that it happened and had no way of knowing the future. I also told him, I didn't build the engine and screw off.

The way I feel now, I should have kept my 21 ft Aqua Sport center console with a 115 Yamaha 4 stroke with less than 80 hours on her. No diving into cold water to clean out the Sea-Doo intake so you can go more than 3 mile an hour and overheat. Live and learn.[/

I agree with you and this will also be my last purchase...the very first day I bought my boat I had to get towed back to the ramp due to oil all over the hull and extreme milky oil...onky good thing is that it came with a two year warranty...I boat with a lot of people and trust me the seadoos are always in the shop or sitting in there driveways with blown motors...I also had a older seadoo 98 sportster 1800 and I loved that boat with all its issues....I bet that Aqua sport you had was nice...after this I think I'm still sticking with jet drive but not seadoo
I use to be the first person to jump up and slap you in the mouth for talking $hit about seadoo but after what I been threw plus spending my weekends working on my friends seadoo's I'm like ............
I still love my boat but it's just the biggest headache I ever had

 

[pete63]

Albysure, I have concerns also. Is this the day my Rotax blows up and is it going to cost more money to fix than it is worth. I agree it is not a good feeling to have every time you go boating. I disagree that the Sea-Doos are junk (semi-junk maybe) but if my engine blows due to some catastrophic failure that the designers at Rotax caused then it would be junk. I know one thing for sure, " This will be my last purchase ever of a BRP product, new or used, and this includes other brands that use the Rotax engine. You can take that to the bank."

I also owned a Seadoo Sportster 2003, that was I sold about 18 months ago and the boat was running well. Soon after the sale I was accused of selling the new owner junk because it had a major failure about 3 months after I sold her. If you are familiar with the Sportster, it had a Rotax 155 hp engine that was not supercharged. I hear it was an oil pump failure and it was my fault it failed. I told the new owner I was sorry that it happened and had no way of knowing the future. I also told him, I didn't build the engine and screw off.

The way I feel now, I should have kept my 21 ft Aqua Sport center console with a 115 Yamaha 4 stroke with less than 80 hours on her. No diving into cold water to clean out the Sea-Doo intake so you can go more than 3 mile an hour and overheat. Live and learn.[/

I agree with you and this will also be my last purchase...the very first day I bought my boat I had to get towed back to the ramp due to oil all over the hull and extreme milky oil...onky good thing is that it came with a two year warranty...I boat with a lot of people and trust me the seadoos are always in the shop or sitting in there driveways with blown motors...I also had a older seadoo 98 sportster 1800 and I loved that boat with all its issues....I bet that Aqua sport you had was nice...after this I think I'm still sticking with jet drive but not seadoo
I use to be the first person to jump up and slap you in the mouth for talking $hit about seadoo but after what I been threw plus spending my weekends working on my friends seadoo's I'm like ............
I still love my boat but it's just the biggest headache I ever had

That about sums it up.....lol

 

[Mudnman]

Shit that blows! A slow loss of power and then quit,sounds like no oil pressure.On a bike you take head off ,get the piston to go into cylinder to remove cylinder.I would put some of that marvele mystery oil in each cylinder.Let it soak in a few days.Someone with 4tec knowledge,hopefully,will say more than I know.
I want to fix my boats flaws.Valves for sure.Now leaning twords new timing chain and oil pumps.Who knows what else! Looks like I'll have time in December.wtf

 

[rcguy]

Shit that blows! A slow loss of power and then quit,sounds like no oil pressure.On a bike you take head off ,get the piston to go into cylinder to remove cylinder.I would put some of that marvele mystery oil in each cylinder.Let it soak in a few days.Someone with 4tec knowledge,hopefully,will say more than I know.
I want to fix my boats flaws.Valves for sure.Now leaning twords new timing chain and oil pumps.Who knows what else! Looks like I'll have time in December.wtf

We Sea-Doo owners should not have to fix problems (flaws) that the manufacturer caused! They knowingly brought products to the market that were proven defective. The main issue was the ceramic washers from 2004/08 models that failed way before the hundred hour rebuild. BRP did nothing to correct the problem (except in California) and left the original and second owners, worldwide, stuck with the repair or rebuilt engine expenses. If the super charger was rebuilt before failure the cost to the owner was between $500/750. If not caught in time a new or rebuilt engine cost was $3500/5000. BRP laughed all the way to the bank while we suckers footed the bill.

The 2003 Sea-Doo Sportster 150 I sold that later failed.....well I still feel for that family. They were a young married couple with a young child that took out a bank loan to buy the boat. They ended up with a huge repair bill that they could not afford to pay and there was nothing I could do but say I was truly sorry that the oil pump failed. I had my own expenses to fix the new Sea-Doo, a 2008 Challenger, (ceramic washers) I had bought to replace the one I sold.

Another major problem with the Rotax engines is the closed loop cooling system. It is at the least marginal, meaning the Rotax engine runs really hot (around 180 F) and there is nothing you can do to solve this problem. Sea-Doo uses that as a benefit to sell their products while it is just another flaw in the long line of design flaws. Here in Florida during the summer months, the Gulf of Mexico, water temperatures reaches 89/90 F and your engine runs even hotter and shortens engine life. Engines that run hotter than designed, also don't last long. I bet most of you guys and gals didn't know that problem existed. Well in Canada with water temp in the 50's F it is not a problem but I live in Florida. Didn't know that was a problem when I bought my two Sea-Doos. Yamaha engines run a lot cooler and if you flush them out with fresh water after use, they last a long time.

There was a time I loved my Sea-Doo but now I look at it and all I see is a time bomb with a defective fuse that can and will go off at any time.

My girlfriend keeps saying to me, "Start a class action lawsuit against BRP/ Sea-Doo. You are not the only one that is having problems with their defective products. They are getting rich and we suckers are paying for it." I should not had to pay $550 to fix a boat with 55 hours on it. She just maybe right! Any lawyers out there?????

 

[go_panthers]

When you come to a forum like this, you are going to see a lot of people having problems. That's the nature of a technical forum. You can't assume that all the boats are blowing up based on what you read on a technical forum. BRP is far from perfect, but I don't see them being much worse than any other boat mfr.

From what I see, a lot of people want to treat their boat like their car. Hop in. Drive it. Park it. Forget about it until the next drive. Boating is not like that. Lots of preventative maintenance involved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[rcguy]

When you come to a forum like this, you are going to see a lot of people having problems. That's the nature of a technical forum. You can't assume that all the boats are blowing up based on what you read on a technical forum. BRP is far from perfect, but I don't see them being much worse than any other boat mfr.

From what I see, a lot of people want to treat their boat like their car. Hop in. Drive it. Park it. Forget about it until the next drive. Boating is not like that. Lots of preventative maintenance involved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have owned boats my entire life, maybe 25 or so, I don't know for sure. So I understand what you are saying when it comes to boats but talking about cars, "Would you have bought a Yugo?" Preventative maintenance doesn't include ceramic washers and marginal closed loop cooling systems that run hotter than designed and shorten engine life especially in warmer sea conditions that exist in the southeast and gulf states. I bet this one of the reasons BRP disappeared from the boating market in 2012.

Some humor for those members that are too young to know what a Yugo was: http://content.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658533_1658529,00.html

 

[pwgsx]

When you buy a used boat you have to know there will be issues, small or big. You really never know how well it was cared for and what was not done to maintain it. For the time I had my boat I ran it hard and except for a silly tops valve and tps going out and a exhaust leak, I was never stranded. I have since sold it to pay for a new car but made sure I had a good bill of sale stating "sold as-is" and no warranty. Made sure the buyer signed it and read it all. You can never tell when a engine may blow or lack of maintenance from the new owner so you just cover your own @ss and hope it runs well for many more years.

 

[rcguy]

When you buy a used boat you have to know there will be issues, small or big. You really never know how well it was cared for and what was not done to maintain it. For the time I had my boat I ran it hard and except for a silly tops valve and tps going out and a exhaust leak, I was never stranded. I have since sold it to pay for a new car but made sure I had a good bill of sale stating "sold as-is" and no warranty. Made sure the buyer signed it and read it all. You can never tell when a engine may blow or lack of maintenance from the new owner so you just cover your own @ss and hope it runs well for many more years.

Hypothetically, let's say I bought 180 Challenger in 2008 with zero hours on the engine. The Sea-Doo would still have ceramic washers and a marginal cooling system from the factory, both of which will in the future, would destroy my boat and make it worthless. Your argument that I bought the boat used still with these problems from the factory doesn't make any sense. Seadoo never offered to pay for the ceramic washer replacement except in California. And that was because of a lawsuit filed in that state which Seadoo refused to defend and therefore the judgement in California. The rest of the world got the shaft from BRP.

 

[pwgsx]

Never mentioned buying a "new" old boat with zero hrs. Simply stated that if you buy a used boat you assume all the problems that come with it. In this case he knew the boat was not maintained well, he got it at a cheap price and is prepared to fix it. Besides we still don't know the cause of this failure so no need assume anything.

 

[go_panthers]

Hypothetically, let's say I bought 180 Challenger in 2008 with zero hours on the engine. The Sea-Doo would still have ceramic washers and a marginal cooling system from the factory, both of which will in the future, would destroy my boat and make it worthless. Your argument that I bought the boat used still with these problems from the factory doesn't make any sense. Seadoo never offered to pay for the ceramic washer replacement except in California. And that was because of a lawsuit filed in that state which Seadoo refused to defend and therefore the judgement in California. The rest of the world got the shaft from BRP.

Nice hypothetical, but you would have to show that most 2008 180 Challengers sold have blown engines for it to be reality. If that data exists, I would love to see it. Based on what I see on this board, There aren't that many people complaining of blown engines, compared to the probable total number sold.

As for the closed loop system: I've had both types, and I'll take the closed loop. Thanks.

As others have said, the powertrain is in a lot of other boat brands, now. BRP got out of that boat building business. Not out of the boat engine business.

 

[xintersecty]

There is two discussions here: 1) Used boats can suck because lack of maintenance by prior owners 2) BRP did knowing continue to use a design once proven faulty. I am not going to say I am fan boy however I did make an investment in tools and knowledge so I can maintain my own seadoos. Personally I am not going overboard on blaming BRP. I did buy a spark and I think they have improved quality and reliability with that product.

So far my bet is on the oil pump failure. No evidence yet. An other co-worker suggested I had a crank bearing mushroom causing the crank to go off center damaging the PTO. Until I have evidence it's a guessing game.

 

[pwgsx]

MY money is on a dropped valve. When will you know??

 

[xintersecty]

I should have a good idea sometime next week. Between my work, safety class, and GF and waiting on tools, it will be like Wednesday before I get really take stuff apart. I had ordered a set of Torx Ring Wrenches to help get the super charger off. I have two bolts off and I have no idea how I got the last one off last year. Go figure. Once the super charger is off then I will pull the heads. By then I will have enough crap out of the way to see what broke.

 

[pete63]

i dont think valve, more likely oil pump with the metal shavings found on the filter.