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Rick's voltage regut

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I believe the original one in my ski was a tympanium, as is the used one. I'll have to look at the osd one to see if there are any markings, will be Monday or Tuesday. Out of town. My original one had very light colored potting compound (see through). The osd one had black potting compound. The used one has a darker yellow potting but is still see through, barely. I requested a 97-99 spx one from minnetonka. Not sure if that's what I got but its a little different than the original one. No noticeable difference except rpms.
Stock : ~6950
Osd: 6400-6500. With an occasional peak while unhooking at max speed of 6800
Used : ~6950, but had a few jumps to 7100, one at 7200.
Ski is stock except a west coast intake grate.
I have a trail tach tto that records rpms and stores the max for that run.
Was a little worried about the 7200 rpms, I have 93 octane in there...
It was also colder out on the used one. Not sure how much of a difference that makes.
But I lost a lot of top end power on the osd new replacement one. Definitely noticed it while riding.
 
It's true, some of those aftermarket RR's are definitely not well engineered and are junk compared to the OEM units, that's not to say an aftermarket one can't be found that works well, the internal circuit is actually pretty simple and there's just no excuse for some of the junk that's out there, IMO. May as well make something that works properly if you're going to bother as opposed to junk, it maybe costs $7 for the parts inside the case if bought in bulk.

Maybe a dozen resistors
Up to six alternator diodes (for three phase rectifier)
As many as 3 SCR transistors (one per phase)
As many as three zener diodes (one per phase)
And three small capacitors (one per phase)
Labor to put it all together, a metal heat sink + some waterproof potting liquid
 
I understand a little about electrical circuits and regulators but I don't understand how the rpms would very that much when it isn't a rev limiter. Unless the one puts out too little or too many volts so it messes with the rev limiter. It'd be interesting to test the difference across the battery between the two at max rpms..... Outside my test capabilities but would be interesting.
 
KayakNFly said:
I understand a little about electrical circuits and regulators but I don't understand how the rpms would very that much when it isn't a rev limiter. Unless the one puts out too little or too many volts so it messes with the rev limiter. It'd be interesting to test the difference across the battery between the two at max rpms..... Outside my test capabilities but would be interesting.
Click to expand...

I think if you were to connect an oscilloscope, you might see some AC ripple, or perhaps the voltage is too high or something and it screws with the MPEM somehow.

It is possible to design a poor regulator but sheesh, may as well do it right in the first place, it's just as easy. I have a few schematic diagrams here and they're quite simple, one of these came straight from a Tympanium RR that was dissected.
 
griz400 said:
here is what i have been using for 2 years now trouble free, i also have the 4 tec one i keep in the ski as a back up ...
rfi's eat rectifiers, everyone should have a backup if your gonna play on the gulf of mexico -- lol --

http://www.newjetskiparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=524_531_749&products_id=70969
Click to expand...

That's hilarious, it fits the description exactly on OSD's web page that says:

"A NOTE ABOUT 4TEC RECTIFIERS... TO TELL IF IT'S A GOOD QUALITY OEM TYPE HEAVY DUTY DESIGN RECTIFIER, THE FINS MUST RUN IN LINE WITH THE BOLT HOLES AS SHOWN ON OURS. THERE'S CHINESE ONES OUT THERE THAT THE FINS RUN IN THE DIRECTION OF THE HARNESS. AVOID THOSE THEY'RE JUNK!"

Turns out, OSD's regulator is junk! LOLOLOLOLOLOL........!!!!! That newjet 4-tec regulator is made in Argentina, not China!

http://www.dze.com.ar/en/producto/1...220 RXP RXT Speedster 150 Speedster 200
 
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That 4-500 RPM loss was probably due to that fact that the regulator was a shunt cheap type!!! That means your stator is always working hard and under full load after 5000 rpm all the time. So that makes sense why you would loose RPM on the top end. Same effect on my bikes.

Also there is a difference of about 50 degrees in temperature between the cheap shunts and series types on the bikes so the ski's are going to have the same thing.

I mean on the stator intself, Its going to be hot all the time and trying to slow you down unless you run a good oem series type.


I have seen excess voltage effect the mpem and cause it to quit after a certain RPM. like in the 15-17vdc range you get a hit and miss around 5-6000 that isn't there when the battery is cold but comes after it charges a bit.

A voltage ripple has almost the same effect.
 
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Mekanix said:
That 4-500 RPM loss was probably due to that fact that the regulator was a shunt cheap type!!! That means your stator is always working hard and under full load after 5000 rpm all the time. So that makes sense why you would loose RPM on the top end. Same effect on my bikes.

Also there is a difference of about 50 degrees in temperature between the cheap shunts and series types on the bikes so the ski's are going to have the same thing.

I mean on the stator intself, Its going to be hot all the time and trying to slow you down unless you run a good oem series type.


I have seen excess voltage effect the mpem and cause it to quit after a certain RPM. like in the 15-17vdc range you get a hit and miss around 5-6000 that isn't there when the battery is cold but comes after it charges a bit.

A voltage ripple has almost the same effect.
Click to expand...

DI 951 is 130hp, about 100,000Watts, and 270 Watts @6000RPM stator power is about 0.362hp Assuming just 50% efficiency, that would require 0.724hp if shunted.

What is the horsepower of an RFI 787, about 110hp? That's 82,000 Watts, so subtracting stator power 0.724hp(270 Watt stator at 50% efficiency) is 540 Watts from 82,000

Is my math right?

Seems like at these hp levels shunt type regulation should be almost like a rounding error in terms of horsepower?

RFI Stator will dump some amount of heat into the stator cover, so we need that cooling water jacket there to try to keep heat down, I guess, and the fuel injection consumes more than 100 Watts, I'd estimate about 200 Watts.
 
Mekanix said:
Makes sense :) Then what would it be ? Voltage level too high or low or ripple ?
Click to expand...

I believe it's something like that? Maybe AC from leaky diodes? Nah, the diodes would overheat and short, or blow the fuse, drag the battery down while sitting overnight?

Series regulator wouldn't drag battery down overnight if though if one diode was shorted, the series SCR would block current, it would be like a short across one of the phases and cut output drastically with one phase gone.... Maybe it is a bad diode..... I'm leaning towards too much voltage as the culprit but that's about like shooting from the hip in the absence of proof.

Only way I can think of is by getting ahold of an actual dud and testing it.

Edit: I don;t know what I was thinking but it was wrong, if one of the rectifier doides was shorted or leaking backwards then there would be a current rush as soon as the SCR turned on from the battery voltage dropping below the knee point. That would cause the fuse to blow.

If one of the SCR's was to short (The SCRS are heat sunk, as well as the diodes), then there would be a short across a stator winding to ground, and that winding would contribute nothing but the phase controlled by that SCR would be unregulated.

Still doesn't explain why a defective regulator has a negative impact on RPM, it's still an unknown to me.
 
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ok, i'm probably gonna lose some friends here, but, richard, as you all know , i believe, maybe i'm wrong, but from previous posts and threads as you know, he says he decided to rebuild his ski motor, and wanted to do himself, whether he did or didn't, now i believe is dealing with a sorta shade tree mechanic, and all the things that are being said here, i'm not sure that you all really know all this, or are googling the facts ....... unless you work for a big company, that really has some superior test equipment, you guys cant really test what you are posting on this thread to begin with.
now, with that said, he is not fixing a motorcycle, he has a problem and was asking about a rectifier, and do you guys know how an rfi charging system works ?? here is a little tidbit, i store in my pc about it all

Charging system -- a little picky with the rfi cause you are operating a fuel injection system, so, needs a little more amps, more so than a carbed ski, this unit has a 3 phase delta wound stator with a 270 watt capacity, with a rectifier than converts ac voltage to dc voltage to charge battery at like a 5 amp rate.

testing stator at 3 yellow wires with engine running at approx 3500 rpms you shold have between 25-40 vac, and at battery you should have like 13.5 ish volts at 3500 rpms, if you experience over 15 volts at battery - replace rectifier

this is really only the only information that richard really needs to know about , provided that he has A ) a known good battery that is fully charged and can pass a load test, B) all grounds and connections are clean, C) all wiring to stator, rectifier, and to mpem "load tested" as we do at work with a device such as a 12 volt headlamp ....

i have read this thread from head to tail like 3 times, and it looks like to me that everyone here is just trying to get in a pissing contest with each other, not saying that you guys are wrong, but , this guy has a problem which needs resolved, and it's not ...

also --
failsafe feature -- some think is a fuel issue -- but amps are needed to operate fuel system, RFI computers have a function that will sense the battery voltage. If battery voltage drops below 8.9 volts for 30 seconds the motor will rev-limit to 4480 rpms, If voltage drops below 7 volts it will shut down the engine completely.
sorta the importance of a spare rectifier, a couple extra fuses, and a well maintained battery, i always keep a battery mainainer hooked up to ski when not in use, the charging system is protected by 2 fuses, 1 15 amp fuse mounted on the mpem, and 1 20 amp fuse in the rear electrical box.


Rectifiers -- guess this was one of the main flaws with the rfi's, i bought a couple different ones, the one i used for a year now isnt the one everyone seems to like (the 4 tech rectifier ) but, this one http://www.newjetskiparts.com/produc...ducts_id=70969

paid 69.00 , i also have the beefed up one, but never really used it yet,

here it is, my buddy uses it on his 2000 model - http://www.osdparts.com/index.php?ma...&products_id=8

they both seem to work, i guess the original one had its problems


if you guys here get pissed, oh well, i've been through alot of trials and crap with my 99 and my friends scott's 2000,
if you want a rectifier that works, you have the info now ....
 
I got it up and running. Just not with my mpem. With my mpem i get 4 long beeps and it kinda cranks but craps out and stops. With another mpem, it starts just fine. So my mpem is pretty much dead. Just didn't think that a regulator would fry an mpem

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
way to go, at least you know after a mpem replacement, you will be good to go .....:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
griz400 said:
again, what are you saying, something about my post, or, something again that will not help richard fix his ski ???
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't see your post until now Griz. I was responding to his post asking "How would a bad rectifier blow an mpem?" but the quotes didn't stick. Sometimes my phone does that :|

Sorry richard, didn't mean to go off on a tangent with your post, Glad you found the fix.
 
griz400 said:
ok, i'm probably gonna lose some friends here, but, richard, as you all know , i believe, maybe i'm wrong, but from previous posts and threads as you know, he says he decided to rebuild his ski motor, and wanted to do himself, whether he did or didn't, now i believe is dealing with a sorta shade tree mechanic, and all the things that are being said here, i'm not sure that you all really know all this, or are googling the facts ....... unless you work for a big company, that really has some superior test equipment, you guys cant really test what you are posting on this thread to begin with.
now, with that said, he is not fixing a motorcycle, he has a problem and was asking about a rectifier, and do you guys know how an rfi charging system works ?? here is a little tidbit, i store in my pc about it all

Charging system -- a little picky with the rfi cause you are operating a fuel injection system, so, needs a little more amps, more so than a carbed ski, this unit has a 3 phase delta wound stator with a 270 watt capacity, with a rectifier than converts ac voltage to dc voltage to charge battery at like a 5 amp rate.

testing stator at 3 yellow wires with engine running at approx 3500 rpms you shold have between 25-40 vac, and at battery you should have like 13.5 ish volts at 3500 rpms, if you experience over 15 volts at battery - replace rectifier

this is really only the only information that richard really needs to know about , provided that he has A ) a known good battery that is fully charged and can pass a load test, B) all grounds and connections are clean, C) all wiring to stator, rectifier, and to mpem "load tested" as we do at work with a device such as a 12 volt headlamp ....

i have read this thread from head to tail like 3 times, and it looks like to me that everyone here is just trying to get in a pissing contest with each other, not saying that you guys are wrong, but , this guy has a problem which needs resolved, and it's not ...

also --
failsafe feature -- some think is a fuel issue -- but amps are needed to operate fuel system, RFI computers have a function that will sense the battery voltage. If battery voltage drops below 8.9 volts for 30 seconds the motor will rev-limit to 4480 rpms, If voltage drops below 7 volts it will shut down the engine completely.
sorta the importance of a spare rectifier, a couple extra fuses, and a well maintained battery, i always keep a battery mainainer hooked up to ski when not in use, the charging system is protected by 2 fuses, 1 15 amp fuse mounted on the mpem, and 1 20 amp fuse in the rear electrical box.


Rectifiers -- guess this was one of the main flaws with the rfi's, i bought a couple different ones, the one i used for a year now isnt the one everyone seems to like (the 4 tech rectifier ) but, this one http://www.newjetskiparts.com/produc...ducts_id=70969

paid 69.00 , i also have the beefed up one, but never really used it yet,

here it is, my buddy uses it on his 2000 model - http://www.osdparts.com/index.php?ma...&products_id=8

they both seem to work, i guess the original one had its problems


if you guys here get pissed, oh well, i've been through alot of trials and crap with my 99 and my friends scott's 2000,
if you want a rectifier that works, you have the info now ....
Click to expand...

I think it's great that you finally made the effort to post a good source for a regulator for Richards ski, we've been working to help him and ourselves try to understand exactly what might have happened, it's not a pizzing amtch as far as I know, but perhaps since you're so observant and I'm a slow slug you've become some kind of superman hero or something, I don't know what your deal is but yeah, now you've ASSUMED something that I think is unfair to the forum.

So yep, chew on that!

Richard already discovered his MPEM is toast, if you'll just acre to read back through some posts, maybe all the rest of us should simply bow to YOU????? I'm not going to, SORRY about that, you seem high on your horse, so think about it a few seconds than calm the F down and stop acting like a premadonna.
 
Here is a schematic diagram of a series type 3-phase RR quite similar to ours used in the seadoo, there are MINOR differences from this one, ours is more refined as a result. If you need a more exact drawing of ours for some reason, I can provide it with some degree of effort on my behalf, but you can be sure I am capable of that feat, LOL! I know how to use an oscilloscope as well, believe it or not, and I was there front and center when we broke the 250mhz clock speed barrier of the 8086x architecture at Advanced Micro Devices research facility back in the 90's

http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/3-Phase_PM_Rectifier_Regulator.gif

Feel free to ask any questions about electronics you may have and I will do my best to answer, I earned a masters degree in electronics engineering over a few decades ago and still recall a great majority of it despite having gone on to earn my PHD in chemical engineering.
 
Thanks for the help. I will get a used mpem and a regulator. Since the mechnic used that and it started fine

Sent from my GT-P5113 using Tapatalk 2
 
Sportster-2001-951C-Stock said:
I think it's great that you finally made the effort to post a good source for a regulator for Richards ski, we've been working to help him and ourselves try to understand exactly what might have happened, it's not a pizzing amtch as far as I know, but perhaps since you're so observant and I'm a slow slug you've become some kind of superman hero or something, I don't know what your deal is but yeah, now you've ASSUMED something that I think is unfair to the forum.

So yep, chew on that!


Richard already discovered his MPEM is toast, if you'll just acre to read back through some posts, maybe all the rest of us should simply bow to YOU????? I'm not going to, SORRY about that, you seem high on your horse, so think about it a few seconds than calm the F down and stop acting like a premadonna.
Click to expand...

really ???? i'm just trying to stay out of your way here at the forum, i mean 17 posts a day you are going on strong, i wont bother "to pitch in " on a thread that you are trying to "research / fix " , have a good day, and i didnt bash you like you did me ...............
 
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