Challenger 4tec Upgrade

[IDoSeaDoo]

Here are some pics of the recent progress.

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[/URL][/IMG]That's the section I cut out of the donor.

[/URL][/IMG]This a side-by-side of the old XP tunnel and the 4tec GTX tunnel. Everything GTX is larger

[/URL][/IMG]Here it is in the XP hull.
Here is the Cradle we built for her. Putting her in it was an interesting experience. Never really see boats just hovering above the ground Kind of a cool sight.

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[/URL][/IMG] Too bad I didn't get it from the side!

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I can't imagine doing this without my awesome new respirator. It was my dad's xmas present to me. Seeing as how I'm getting more and more into these crazy sorts of projects, I need a good breathing device. The mask was okay, but this keeps it all out of my whole face. Thanks Dad!

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[IDoSeaDoo]

So there she was, her bare bottom ready for some hot grinding action.

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[/URL][/IMG] I find it funny how aptly they named this boat. It has been nothing short of a challenge

[/URL][/IMG]Here goes the hole I cut out.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

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I decided to go with just the rear two mounts. No need to further gut the boat. The front mount will be easy enough I just need to get it close, shims will take care of the rest.
Tomorrow I will clean the hole out and get them better matched up. The two hulls are really thick. The boat is probabbly 1/2" whereas the ski is closer to 5/8" thick. I want to shave away some of that to lay some new glass down to both and build it up so it gets a nice good bond. I'll probably go 1.5" back on both sides of the seam. Thankfully there are no strakes near this area. Those would be really hard to remold upsidedown :thumbsup:

 

[Dannyjd]

Nice work, I'm in on watching this build!!

 

[Brian J]

Thanks for the update, interested to see the final product

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

More progress on fitting the graft into the hull today. I decided to sacrifice the original ride plate to use as my future ride plate. I will bolt it on, then modify it to look less ridiculous. Probably something along the lines of what was there before. I will have to find a way to brace it to the hull. I've seen some boats brace the ride plate straight to the pump, and despite me having the aluminum pump housing, I don't believe it was designed with that in mind. Better safe than swimming.

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I'm also thinking hard about how to make the VTS work, because this ski didn't come with it. I have an old 96 XP vts module. Hopefully it works and I can put a vts gauge in place of the original fuel gauge (I'll have the one from the GTX pump on the dash). Tomorrow I'll tool around with that.

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Also here's where I'm going to need you guys' help. As I plan to have electric vts (the lever was useless as the force in the nozzle would just push it where it wanted) I will no longer need the third lever at the helm. Also, I noted that the newer speedsters limit the throttle in neutral by mechanical means. When in Neutral or Reverse, you simply can't rev it high and rip off your reverse bucket. So the question is, do you guys know if the older boats had a similar setup, because my challenger had an electrical circuit to govern revs when it's in neutral. If I can use an older sportster helm controls, it would save me some $$ as I'm sure anything that comes off a 4tec is going to be pricey.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Holy Hell control levers are expensive online! Do they ever actually break?!

 

[Mekanix]

Yeah they break and are expensive.

Yes they all had the neutral start and rev and only allowed the throttle to move if your in N, R and F but locks the throttle low when your in between those ranges.
Also your drive is locked in what ever position it is in if the throttle is advanced a bit, so you have to throttle all the way back and then you can move from N to F. So launching isn't possible like that unless your going to modify the assembly. But you might accidentally do a submarine move if you mistake the shift lever for the throttle

You do have adjustments for the levers that stiffen them up and might have held the trim where you wanted it. Same with the throttle and shift lever. There are adjustments for how much drag you want.

I kind of like the electric VTS no matter what and getting a sportster throttle lever setup without trim might be the way to go.
I know the 96 sportster only has two levers and behaves the same as yours does but not sure if it will physically fit there.

Another option is to keep the third lever but make it spring loaded to center and have it be your trim adjust by using two switches for the forward and back motion.

 

[Dannyjd]

Another option is to keep the third lever but make it spring loaded to center and have it be your trim adjust by using two switches for the forward and back motion.

That's an awesome idea, I like

 

[racerxxx]

Perhaps with the larger pump and stuff it might make a difference, but back in 96 and 97 the single engine Challenger had manual trim that was operated off the control handle 3rd lever(like yours). I'll assume since it didn't make it past 97 that it was not much if any gain, but like I said, perhaps with your updated engine and pump it will make a difference. You could run a blown VTS box off a DEI 451 relay set up and use micro switches on the 3rd lever of the control handle or make up a mount for OEM seadoo VTS switches. Since your doing the engine swap you might as well try and see if you can incorporate the VTS. This would be wired stand alone so you wouldn't fry your MPEM. The older boats used the MPEM to rev limit in neutral like you said, but nothing in forward or neutral, I wouldn't worry about it. If you never did it on your old set up why would now be different? Or did I completely miss your question? LOL. Keep up the good work!


You can Google for DEI 451 relay seadoo and find info, or for a link to it here on SDF http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?47905-1998-GSX-Limited-VTS-problems

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I walked up to a 2004 sportster and tested it's control levers: it seemed to physically limit me to half-throttle in neutral and reverse. I couldn't hit WOT until I was all the way in FWD. Right now, there will be nothing stopping me from gunning it if I'm in N or R as that switch won't be wired to any sort of rev limiter. I'm worried that some noob (like maybe my fiance) might some day blow the reverse gate off. I wonder if there is a way I can physically limit the throttle based on position. Perhaps I can find a little electrical actuator that could be attached somewhere on the assembly that would pop out and limit the travel of the throttle lever based on position... Maybe some sort of little servo or something.

I do like the idea of using the third lever wired to microswitches, though that would be much harder than just installing a rocker switch. I actually already came up with a dual-relay setup to control the Vts on my SPX after the module quit. I have no idea of position unless I look behind me or take a sharp turn. I hope the module I got from a recent scavange shows the position on a gauge. I'd really like to be able to see it on the boat.

And I experimented with tightening the levers up to "hold" the trim in place. It didn't really work. If I were to push the trim to its max (up or down) the force of the pump would knock the lever down about 25%, effectively limiting my trim to about 50% of it's maximum travel potential. The effect on the ride was minimal. Also, that cable split. I repaired it with some metal braces and s.s. hose clamps, but it's a temporary and sure-to-fail again thing. Those cables are hard to find and expensive, and don't really work anyway. I think electric is the way to. I was even considering a hydraulic design, but that again would require a lot of work and probably be more complicated that necessary in the long run. I've decided to not do more fiberglass work until I have my vts plan figured out.

 

[purple_people_eater]

you could also get a "trim fix" box and wire that to the mirco switches? that way you'd have your gauge and possibly be able to us the micro switch idea.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

But how does the trim-fix allow the gauge to work? From taking one of those boxes apart, it seems that a magnet rides next to some sort of circuit board and that's what generates the feed signal for the gauge. If the box is burned out, doesn't it mean that that sensor is too? Also, does the trim fix know when to stop giving power to the motor,like when trim is all the way down? On my SPX, I have to be careful to not hold the button too long, because the relays don't know when to stop feeding it juice.

 

[racerxxx]

To have the trim fix work like a true working vts you need to buy their other fix, so it's not just one box, iirc. Just Google trim fix, go to their site it's pretty self explanatory.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[racerxxx]

http://www.thetrimfix.com

http://thetrimfix.com/trimfix_gauge_solution.htm

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[purple_people_eater]

my buddy dan is a disturber for them and says that they are now one box. not sure of this yet as i haven't installed a new one, tho i am scheduled too this coming week and i'll let you know for sure.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I'm not sure why seadoo sealed the vts hole in the way they did. Drilling it was not an option as there was nothing to center the bit on. I had to use my porting/polishing air tool to gut that plastic out of there. I noticed that the vts hole is actually at an angle. I guess this is to absorb the forces when the trim is angled down. The old 90's trim box fit really well, and still worked. I couldn't test the gauge as the one I had was suspect. The outer lense got shot out by some dumb kid before that whole ski was given to me, and the whole unit does not show any signs of life. Also my multi-meter decided that NOW was a good time to quit working. Oh well, I will go pull the vts gauge off my SPX, as that box doesn't have any brains and has been bypassed long ago anyway
On first glance, I thought the nozzle went up way more than it went down, but looking at the pictures, they appear even. Can't believe this old 90's box works so well here with stock 2000's dimensions/push rod.

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Now all I have to do is make a mouning point. Not sure if I'll rivet aluminum, s. steel, or just glass in a bolt...

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That motor looks rusty, but I took it apart, cleaned it up, greased it and it works like a champ. If it ever dies on me, I'll just buy that old nissan window motor that's an exact match. These are too pricey from the marine market

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

my buddy dan is a disturber for them and says that they are now one box. not sure of this yet as i haven't installed a new one, tho i am scheduled too this coming week and i'll let you know for sure.

Thanks for that heads up people_eater. I'd be interested in just the gauge fix, as I can wire up relays to make the switches work. They cost me like $5 for both Ask your buddy if they sell just that and what it costs, and whether it tracks the complete range of motion. The pic on the site didn't have much detail or a way to price it.

 

[racerxxx]

A forstner bit would have been my tool of choice for that, provided it was the correct size.

They used that same basic style VTS box and the rod forever. The mount bracket you need is $16 new at the dealer. It's the same one off a X4. Seadoo doesn't change much.

As PPE stated it looks like the trim fix and gauge solution are now one package, just search seadoo trim fix on ebay and you will see they call it out like that now.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Yea, I wouldn't have had purchase to center that tool on what weird cap the put in. It really was a strange way to seal that hole... I will use the trim-fix if the box's gauge sender doesn't work. I was able to pull a resistance reading on the output leads of the box, just before my multi-meter crapped out, and the resistance did seem to change with the position. It went from about 5 to 36 ohms. I hope this is right for that gauge. I wonder if I can find the right resistance values in a manual...

Another thing I'm pondering: The Challenger came with a weedless system. Basically, you pull a fork (that normally acts as an intake grate) comes down and pushes the weeds off. I've never used it on the boat, but have gotten quite a clump on my jet ski once when cruising around at night. It would be quite a hassle to add this feature and I'm wondering how well it actually works. Anybody have any reviews for me?

 

[racerxxx]

I've owned my boat since 99, I've used it to gain access to the shaft to cut a ski rope off of it. It's worthless in my eyes. Yes I ride near seaweed, Lily pads, plastic bags etc....... never used it to clear trash from the pump.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Yea, I think if anything, it's a potential source of cavitation. Also, to alight everything to install it would be a huge PITA. Going to remove it. Any interesting ideas on what I can use that cable for? Maybe an e-brake

 

[Mekanix]

About the rev limiter issue. Have a look at the wiring diagram for your 4tec computer and see if they used that computer on anything else that has reverse or something that limits throttle.

There might be an unused pin that you might be able to use for that purpose but it wasn't on that machine. Who knows it might be possible to use it and just add a wire.



For the trim. Either rip the potting out and have a look for yourself what the board looks, possibly fix it. Or make your own if you have to. All your interested in is the board and you can buy new reed switches.


one trim fix is just a couple of relay's to actuate the motor.

the other trim fix is just a series of hall effect sensors in the same place as the original reed switches and they pickup the magnet on the throw rod. this mounts on the side of the trim box.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Another great day in the shop where I discovered all my throttle and VTS control worries can and will be resolved without buying any new parts Well, maybe a couple push switches for the VTS. So here is the VTS lever in the fwd position.

[/URL][/IMG]I will attach springs to both ends of it, making it always return to center. Also, where that arrow is pointing, I will place a switch on each side and wire them to the VTS.

Next comes the throttle control. I have gained a lot more respect for the engineers that designed this versatile system :thumbsup:. It really is quite simple and easy to modify. So this boat restricts throttle movement to 0-20% when you're between gears. You must be in that range to shift at all. It accomplishes this with a sliding pill-shaped metal oval. On the gear side, you have three holes in a removable metal plate. When the oval aligns with a hole, it allows full throttle movement.
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And here is the plate on the other side that allows the 20% throttle when the lever is between gears.

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Again, it only allows this when the throttle is at 0. You cannot shift at all if the throttle is anywhere but in this 20% region.

So my options then are to close the reverse and neutral holes and widen the restriction slot to 30-40%. This would allow full throttle only in Fwd, and allow partial revving at R and N, but then I could be revving that high while shifting. (potentially bad) The other option (and a less invasive one) would be to block only the neutral hole and allow me to full throttle in fwd and reverse. This is the option I'm leaning towards because I do remember some times when I needed a lot of reverse really quickly. If I break the bucket, so be it. This is a safety concern. I'm not sure how much reverse I'd get from just 40% throttle. In any case, blocking the N hole wouldn't actually change anything permanently. I think I will just fill that hole with JB Weld and sand it smooth. I could always return later and tweak it again.

 

[Mekanix]

Its one of those things your going to have to try and decide what amount of throttle works best in reverse.

But think of the IBR system, that just drops the bucket at full thrust nearly. So it should be able to handle it if that is the same design.