96 XP. Known perfect AGM battery but slow/delayed cranking when trying to start

[68ragtop]

I currently suspect the OP has a cable/solenoid issue, sounds like there is high resistance somewhere and it doesn't take much at all.

A voltmeter reading on the battery at hard crank & during smooth, with another reading directly on the starter should tell us much really shouldn't fall below 10V during hard crank conditions, would you agree?


Sorry about the 720 comments. Every time I see an X4 I think 720 because I never had an X4 800. (always wanted one though)

 

[dannyual767]

.......I currently suspect the OP has a cable/solenoid issue, sounds like there is high resistance somewhere and it doesn't take much at all.

This thread is really getting long and I can't expect people to know what information is written in all of these posts.

The solenoid that is currently in the problem XP is the one that worked perfectly fine in the other XP. It is the one that is in the videos. Now I do know that both could be weak just as it's possible that all three of my starters are weak. That being said, it did work perfectly fine and normal in the other ski.

As far as the cables go, that part I'm not totally certain of. I've got a 3 cables for each ski (2 pos and 1 neg) and a spare pos and neg. I've swapped cables and even doubled them up at times. Yes, I know it's very possible that I've got some bad ones. Maybe I'll go to Walmart and buy some car battery cables and see if brand new cables will change anything.

 

[dannyual767]

Pleeeze, just put a $20 pair of brushes in the starter and be done with it! I've read this entire forum and watched the video and am convinced this will fix it.

Will this kit work for me? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00579XP7O/ref=nosim/homeenteguys-20

I'm going to order it if you guys think its a good one. If not, give me a link to one that may be better.

 

[Skidoodle]

Bingo!! I have bought the exact same kit from them twice before. Be sure to clean and polish the armature surface to a nice, shiny, smooth surface. Good Luck!!

 

[Coastiejoe]

I think we touched on this before. But if you test "loaded voltage" at the cables along the route it will tell us a lot.


Repairing and selling iPads, iPhones and Mini iPads.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

As far as the cables go, that part I'm not totally certain of. I've got a 3 cables for each ski (2 pos and 1 neg) and a spare pos and neg. I've swapped cables and even doubled them up at times. Yes, I know it's very possible that I've got some bad ones. Maybe I'll go to Walmart and buy some car battery cables and see if brand new cables will change anything.

Yeah sorry, I wasn't aware you had already been through the cables and connections. Thus I agree new brushes and bushings with a few dabs of grease such as lubriplate (see garage door screw drive lube at Home Depot) in the bushings would be my next move, some pocket change spent on these kits is always a bargain and worth the effort to restore lost starter motor torque.

 

[dannyual767]

I think I found the problem!!!!!

posted by me in post #52,

As far as the cables go, that part I'm not totally certain of.I've got a 3 cables for each ski (2 pos and 1 neg) and a spare pos and neg. I've swapped cables and even doubled them up at times. Yes, I know it's very possible that I've got some bad ones. Maybe I'll go to Walmart and buy some car battery cables and see if brand new cables will change anything.

Since I wasn't certain about the cables, I went back to them. I pulled the negative cable and the battery to solenoid positive cable out of the good ski. I ran them parallel to the cables in the problem ski. I had a spare solenoid to starter positive cable that I also ran parallel. In other words, all cables were doubled up. Here is the video:

[video]http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dannyual767/media/IMG_03951.mp4.html[/video]

I have to admit that it surprised the heck out of me! I was expecting no difference.

Now that I've got the problem ski cranking normally, I need to remove half of what is hooked up in the video. I removed one negative battery cable and it still cranked fine. At this point, I ran out of time to tinker with the ski and had to put everything away.

Tomorrow, I'll remove one positive cable at a time and see where the problem returns. I'll know which cable is bad when the problem returns.

I'm feeling good about this thing now. It was exciting to hear it cranking normally like it should. Now I just need to get that cable spaghetti mess out of there .

 

[68ragtop]

So what happens if you take the cables off the second battery & double them up on the 1st battery. In other words, go back to one battery, keeping the cables doubled up. Can you put the volt meter right on the starter connection too if it acts up again?

If you had a bad cable though, you should have seen a jump in voltage in the drop test from post #23

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Im totally confused...I thought you moved cables from the good machine to the other...?


I need to put a post up....my super duper premium power and ground cables are AVAILABLE!!! I made them specifically for these kind of issues in my own machines. Install them and know 100% for years any electrical issues are not power or ground wires!

 

[Coastiejoe]

My post #4 and the OP's post #7 led me to believe the cables were all changed. Sooo,, were they or were they not? if not, we are WAY back where we started...

 

[dannyual767]

Minnetonka and Coastie, you both are right. The reason that I said that I wasn't certain about the cables is because I never took all three of the good cables and installed them in place of the problem ski's three cables at one time. I replaced one cable at a time and the problem ski never cranked normally. Yesterday, in the video was the first time I actually had all three good cables in the problem ski at the same time. Right now, I'm suspecting that I may actually have two bad cables in the problem ski.

I was just trying to be certain of the cable situation and it totally surprised me that it worked. You may not be able to tell in the video but I was pretty much shocked that it cranked normally. I really didn't expect it to. I was just doing the cables to completely rule out the cables as the problem. Boy was I wrong! They are the problem! Whether it's one or more bad cables, they are the problem.


I also want to apologize to everyone who has spent time in this thread trying to help me fix this problem. I should have confirmed the cable situation several days ago.

 

[dannyual767]

Im totally confused...I thought you moved cables from the good machine to the other...?


I need to put a post up....my super duper premium power and ground cables are AVAILABLE!!! I made them specifically for these kind of issues in my own machines. Install them and know 100% for years any electrical issues are not power or ground wires!

My wife asked me if I should buy new cables and I said yes but I didn't know where. I don't think that they're available from OEM suppliers anymore.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Minnetonka4me is selling heavy duty cables or you can pull your cables and walk into a local auto parts store as they stock generic cables of various lengths.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

A voltmeter reading on the battery at hard crank & during smooth, with another reading directly on the starter should tell us much really shouldn't fall below 10V during hard crank conditions, would you agree?

Yes, I agree with a caveat the voltmeter must actually produce a meaningful reading. Just like trying to test a noisy TPS sensor, most times a DVM is a serious compromise when measuring voltage or current in a dynamic system. I prefer an analog meter myself, for this type of measurement, or an expensive DVM that has peak memory functions but even still I prefer to watch the analog needle swinging around the scale.

Or you could use an analog oscilloscope I guess, if you really want to nail the measurement as it swings up and down and all over the place.

Edit: What I'm saying is, I expect the OP doesn't have the right voltmeter for this type of measurement, I doubt many DVM's are really up to the task, the one I'm looking at right this second sitting here in front of me on my bench can measure DC and 60hz AC just fine but I wouldn't trust it to measure a swinging voltage while the starter motor is cranking over pulling over a couple hundred amps jumping up and down though those cables, so his probably isn't either.

 

[dannyual767]

Sportster, you're right about the DVM. I've got two china made cheapies. One is a so-called Sears Craftsman but really it's just like the other one I have-china made.

When the starter hits against the compression and stops, the voltage goes way down. When it cranks over normally like it should, the voltage doesn't drop very much at all.



I can see why the cables have been giving me trouble. I spent an hour working on it trying to find the cable(s) that are bad. I had a fully charged battery, two red positive cables going from the solenoid to the starter and two black, negative battery cables. I only had one red positive battery cable hooked up because I confirmed it was good yesterday before I ran out of time.

The first cable that I confirmed was bad was the original, black, negative battery cable. If I disconnected it and left the spare black negative cable, it resulted in continued good, normal cranking.

Next, I tried to remove one of the red, positive solenoid to starter cables. This is where I ran into problems. I tried 3 different red cables and none of them would consistently crank the engine normally. This includes trying the cable from the good cranking ski. If I leave two cables connected in parallel, it cranks normally.

It started raining on me and I had to quit working on the ski.

All along, it appears like I had a bad negative battery cable. Not only that, but the red, positive solenoid to starter cable seems to be iffy as well.

Of course a strong, fully charged battery is a must as well. The battery goes down some and the cables get warm (resistance goes up) after some cranking and I think my results start to get inconsistent. It's frustrating but it is good to hear the engine cranking normally.

 

[Minnetonka4me]

My wife asked me if I should buy new cables and I said yes but I didn't know where. I don't think that they're available from OEM suppliers anymore.

Mine are better than OEM; marine grade wire, the correct size terminals, abrasion resistant sleeve, marine grade shrink wrap....they are super nice! Ill get a post up with some pictures here in a little bit.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Connection quality and cable quality is the largest issue with skis and boats it seems...

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

When the starter hits against the compression and stops, the voltage goes way down.

Of course it's not impossible those starters are maybe a little weaker than when they were new, electrically they may be good but the bushings may have been the issue besides just brushes and that's to be expected with age, or maybe the cables a little corroded too, they're not new either, a combination of both even. On top of that, compression is a few pounds higher, so yeah, there were unknowns remaining thus replacing brushes and bushings in an ancient starter that's been sitting in a wet bilge soaking in water several times a season over 15 years, can't go wrong with some money spent on brushes and bushings!

I replace quite a few more corroded starters of all types than I replace cables, but I do have spools of battery cable in both colors, along with drawers of various crimp connectors and the crimper tools b/c I do run into bad cables occasionally, just not as often.

 

[dannyual767]

Sportster, that's a great post :lol: .

I took a good flat file and cleaned the ends of all of my cables until they were a nice shiney, copper color. I even filed the flat parts of my battery terminals where the cable bolts down just to insure the best conductivity.

I think that I should go ahead and order up that brush kit that I linked in a previous post. 20 bucks or so but I think that it'll be worth it.

I've thought about buying my own bulk battery cable and crimp or solder ends. I wanted to make some new battery cables for my 2001 Ford F250SD diesel. Those cables are expensive from Ford and mine have seen some better days. Obviously that cable is much bigger but I could buy Sea Doo sized cable as well. I'll look into that some more or maybe I'll just buy some Sea Doo cables from Minnetonka.

 

[68ragtop]

Just a little more food for thought.....

When the starter is under heavy load, it wouldn't be abnormal for you to loose up to 1V through the cables. If the starter is already struggling, that 1 volt drop could be just enough to see the symptoms you have. Double up the cables & you have less voltage drop across them. Sooooo, potentially your starter could perform seemingly normal with doubled up cables making you believe the problem is the cables.

In other words, the doubled cables could just simply be masking your real issue.

IF the engine has no noticeable rotating resistance (you can hand rotate it freely 360 degrees with the plugs out from the PTO) I am jumping on the starter bandwagon. a rebuild might do the trick, we will see. cheap enough to try.

Somebody should really build a seadoo starter dyno.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I'd like to see him replace more than just the brushes in that starter although restoring it might just be as simple as the bushings need grease. I guess this ski is a saltwater ski, so probably some cables need replacing to, by now, if a good rebuild on the starter doesn't lick this hard crank issue, all of this is money well spent if the motor and ski are otherwise good.

Not just brushes though, think more about the entire shebang b/c if it's worth doing, may as do it right. This kit I located is $15 shipped, not sure which starter you have on this ski:

This second one was $19 shipped, it seems to have the same brush holder from above and says fits your ski, they did mention the bushings may not fit al skis, some kind of disclamer. I guess the loaded end of the shaft looks like a needle bearing and the brush end is probably a bushing, that setup does tend to last a good while longer than double bushings but a bushing can take more load as long as there's lube there.

 

[dannyual767]

I'd like to see him replace more than just the brushes in that starter although restoring it might just be as simple as the bushings need grease. I guess this ski is a saltwater ski, so probably some cables need replacing to, by now, if a good rebuild on the starter doesn't lick this hard crank issue, all of this is money well spent if the motor and ski are otherwise good.

Not just brushes though, think more about the entire shebang b/c if it's worth doing, may as do it right. This kit I located is $15 shipped, not sure which starter you have on this ski:

The starter is the OEM, white Denso. I've got a total of three of them. Up until doubling up the cables, none of them would crank the engine normally.

Where can I buy that kit that you pictured? It has a lot more in it that the simple brush replacement kit that I had linked in post #53.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Somebody should really build a seadoo starter dyno.

You mean like a software program that calculates theoretical torque? (kidding!)

Yeah, any little thing can tip the scales against you, and they all eventually stack up to a no-crank complaint. May as well bite the bullet, reset the counter and hit go.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

The starter is the OEM, white Denso..

Yeah, everybody seems to agree the Rotax/Denso OEM starter is worth rebuilding as opposed to going for an aftermarket, I'll take their word on that.

I found the other kit on the bay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Kit..._Watercraft_Parts&hash=item3efadd033f&vxp=mtr

 

[dannyual767]

I just ordered the kit

Sportster, thank you for the link. I've already paid for it :thumbsup: . 19 bucks shipped. Not bad and as long as I don't wreck the starter during the rebuild, it can only help!