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96 XP. Known perfect AGM battery but slow/delayed cranking when trying to start

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nwscoobie, it'll crank over just fine with the plugs out.

All of my starters are genuine OEM starters and the teeth look fine. There is no flywheel gear/starter teeth meshing problem.
 
I am going to go with tired starters and higher compression. I mean OEM starters are at least 15 years old by now, perhaps it is time for a starter rebuild?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Ive experienced it before but usually it was a power or ground cable.

Just for shiz and giggles swap your front ebox. You've done everything else might as well try it.
 
Danny, when you have a few minutes read through this thread from last year. I went through a similar situation. The big difference was mine only bucked only when the engine was hot. So my starter was strong enough at all other times. For me, the symptoms had me convinced it was a pre-ignition condition, as I was pretty thorough with the starter.

I am not sure this is whats happening to you, as you mentioned you tried other starters. One question for you though. The other ski you mentioned you have. Is it the same engine? If it was me I would swap those two starters & see where the problem goes. that would quickly narrow things down.

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?66992-Hard-to-re-start-4tec
 
Matt, I'll run the tests this afternoon and post what I find.

68ragtop, both are 1996 XPs with the 787 engine. All three starters are the same. All three of them have been tried on the problem ski and none of them works any better than the others. As I've mentioned several times, they're all genuine OEM, white Denso starters.

I'll read through your thread and see if any light bulbs light up!
 
68ragtop said:
Do you have a multimter?

If so, I have some tests for you.

first make sure you have 12.3-12.6 initial charge on the battery.

to check your negative cable, put a meter probe on the negative terminal on the battery, then the other on the engine block. (A good ground like a clean bolt head, temp sensor base, etc). you should have no voltage at all. turn the engine over. while cranking you will read some voltage, but it should be around .5 volts initially or less on a good connection. maybe only .25 volts during a normal crank.

Then check the positive cables. Put one meter probe on the positive battery cable & put the other probe on the starter positive terminal, (directly on the starter.) When you first do this, you will see 12 volts because the solenoid is open & your meter is finding a ground through the starters armature. Hit the start button & you should get the same readings as you found on the negative cable. could be slightly higher because there is twice as much positive cable as it goes through the solenoid. but still in the same .5 & .25 ballpark.

Also take note of the voltage you have on directly on the battery while its cranking too.

Let us know what you find!
Click to expand...

I did both of these voltage tests today but I had to do it quickly. I was racing to get it done before a huge thunderstorm hit!

I did the best that I could and I did read voltages of about .25V when the starter first engaged. Once it hit that "compression" and stopped, the voltage went up. Sometimes to .5V or even up to 1.0V. Like I said, initially it was .25V or slightly less but once the starter struggled, the voltage went up.

I guess I could always play with it a little more when I get time. I don't have any brand new cables but I could always double up the cables and just see if that makes any difference. I just needed more time than the thunderstorm gave me :( .
 
Minnetonka4me said:
Just to try it since you've tried everything else. Maybe its a issue with mesh between the starter and the flywheel teeth.
Click to expand...

I don't think that it's a mesh problem. Once it gets past that "compression" stopping point, it'll crank just fine and it sounds normal with no grinding sounds either.
 
Dannyual,

What Ragtop asked you to do was to install your original starter in your other ski, and see if the problem switches to the other ski.

Mike
 
Originally Posted by Mike99
What Ragtop asked you to do was to install your original starter in your other ski, and see if the problem switches to the other ski.
Click to expand...



68ragtop said:
Danny, when you have a few minutes read through this thread from last year. I went through a similar situation. The big difference was mine only bucked only when the engine was hot. So my starter was strong enough at all other times. For me, the symptoms had me convinced it was a pre-ignition condition, as I was pretty thorough with the starter.

I am not sure this is whats happening to you, as you mentioned you tried other starters. One question for you though. The other ski you mentioned you have. Is it the same engine? If it was me I would swap those two starters & see where the problem goes. that would quickly narrow things down.

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?66992-Hard-to-re-start-4tec
Click to expand...

I think it was last Saturday that I removed the good, normal working starter out of my other normal cranking 1996 787 XP and installed that starter into the problem ski. Problem remains. In fact, the videos that I posted were with the known good starter from my normal XP.
 
68ragtop, I read through your thread from last year and I was happy to read that you were able to solve your problem. Of course my starter problem has nothing to do with heat but I'm suspecting my used, worn, weak starters. I know its a long shot that all three would be weak but it's possible, right?
 
I would think two 800's with the same compression should take the same amount of effort to spin over, so if you swapped starters, wires ,etc. I am at a bit of a loss. Not giving up, just not sure whats up. What happens when the spark plugs wire are off? same thing I assume?

I knew your situation was different than I had with that 4tec, I just wanted to share that a starter can get weak. I still don't know why that one went bad. Low hours, brushes were nice with little wear on the commutator. Passed all the tests on the growler too. Maybe somewhat demagnetized? Really not sure.

.25V & .50v sounds about right as far as voltage drop on the wires. 1V is a little high, but it probably is because of the load the starter is creating. IS your battery voltage around 10-11V at this time?

If the engine spins over free by hand at the PTO with the plugs out, Everything screams that it needs a new starter. Only thing that keeps me from condemning it however, is that it works fine in the other ski with the same compression. Hhhhmmmmmmmmm.
 
It spins perfectly fine when the plugs are out.

I had two Magna Power USA made AGM batteries wired in parallel to insure voltage was sufficient. I did test the voltage during cranking and it was over 11V.

The other normal cranking ski's compression numbers are about 5psi lower. I wouldn't think that would be enough to make this big of a cranking difference but maybe it does.

Other than replacing the brushes, is there anything else that I can do to rebuild one of these three starters?
 
Here's my guess concerning permanent magnet starters.... Don't drop or hit one of those starters with a hammer, I think you'll discover the ceramic magnets may be brittle and shatter or crack (based on my experience with permanent magnet starters used on other motors). In fact, I would venture to guess it's the magnet's condition that makes the difference between a problematic starter that's not worn out and one that works great.
 
dannyual767 said:
I did both of these voltage tests today but I had to do it quickly. I was racing to get it done before a huge thunderstorm hit!

I did the best that I could and I did read voltages of about .25V when the starter first engaged. Once it hit that "compression" and stopped, the voltage went up. Sometimes to .5V or even up to 1.0V. Like I said, initially it was .25V or slightly less but once the starter struggled, the voltage went up.

I guess I could always play with it a little more when I get time. I don't have any brand new cables but I could always double up the cables and just see if that makes any difference. I just needed more time than the thunderstorm gave me :( .
Click to expand...

This is a good test, make sure to do it as described.
 
Sportster-2001-951C-Stock said:
Here's my guess concerning permanent magnet starters.... Don't drop or hit one of those starters with a hammer, I think you'll discover the ceramic magnets may be brittle and shatter or crack (based on my experience with permanent magnet starters used on other motors). In fact, I would venture to guess it's the magnet's condition that makes the difference between a problematic starter that's not worn out and one that works great.
Click to expand...

Going to side track a little here......

Sportster, you were involved when I was battling my 4-tec starting issue. Remember how I was so convinced it was a compression issue? I had zero history with the ski as I bought it DOA. Once we found it was the starter, what I "SHOULD" have done is swapped armatures to determine if it was weak magnets, or weakened armature windings. I could still do that as I still have the old one on the shelf. It would probably be helpful for the knowledge bank too. I agree with the magnets weakening, & I also believe its possible that the starter could have been overheated when the ski was (assumingly) trying to be started with a seized drive line. if the button is being held & the starter isn't turning, something has to get hot & quick. That would be whatever has the most resistance. That should be the windings & the brush wires. After that is potentially damaged, I don't think resistance & tests on the growler are going to show anything as there is no load on the windings. I was so frustraited I actually bought a growler when this was going on, & I tested both the armature in the weak starter & the armature in the new one before installing the new one. They tested identical. I was convinced when I installed the new starter that my problem was still going to be there. I officially became a "parts changer" mechanic at that moment.... OR so I thought...

As you can tell this still bugs me.... ;)


But back to Danny's issue. Can a few LBS in compression make a difference? I will say yes it can. But if you really are finding three starters to be fine in one ski, & problematic in the other it would seem a lot less likely. My 4tec was at the threshold of what it would & wouldn't turn over with a 7% increase.

Also, I was asking about disconnecting the spark plug wires, not pulling the plugs. You need to check that off your list too. Not sure if the 720's base timing is adjustable on the stator like the 580's were? somebody may have messed with that if its pre-ignition. If it does the hard starts cold, pull the plug wires & then you can rule out the ignition side of it.

Lastly, if the starter currently in your good machine is a starter that failed in your problem machine, dump a small amount of oil into each cylinder of the good starting machine. that will bump the compression & see if it acts up. if it doesn't act up, do another compression test to confirm that it jumped to at least. 145-150

Take all this for what its worth to you. I am just giving you ideas of what I would be doing.
 
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68ragtop, yesterday when I was testing, I had the spark plug wires disconnected but the plugs were still in. The starter did the same thing so I'd assume that it isn't an ignition timing issue.

I also want to make clear one more time since you mentioned a 720; both of these 1996 XP skis are factory 787cc machines!

I like the idea of trying the oil in the cylinders of the good cranking ski just to see if a little bit of extra compression stops the starter. I think I'll try it later today!
 
Have you swapped front eboxes yet? Your timing changes come from the MPEM, so if you bought a replacement ebox and the number is way off the base timing...it could potentially be the problem 68 ragtop is talking about.

Now all motors are different, and there are so many factors that can affect it. They punched the number into the cases, but a full rebuild can throw that number off.

I have been like many 787 owners over the years who just assumed there isnt an issue....hell people have been swapping MPEMs for years w/o checking the timing. This year due to a total loss setup Im dealing with along with a friends ski that has an enhancer...I hope to become more knowledgeable about it.
 
No, I haven't swapped MPEMs yet. I'm not sure that it'll make any difference. As I mentioned in my post above (#45), the starter hesitates even with the plug wires disconnected so it can't be a timing issue.
 
dannyual767 said:
No, I haven't swapped MPEMs yet. I'm not sure that it'll make any difference. As I mentioned in my post above (#45), the starter hesitates even with the plug wires disconnected so it can't be a timing issue.
Click to expand...

It might or might not be a timing issue but what if it's a component that is on the MPEM or somewhere else in the ebox?? It's 20 minutes worth of work and one more thing to check off the list.
 
Pleeeze, just put a $20 pair of brushes in the starter and be done with it! I've read this entire forum and watched the video and am convinced this will fix it.
 
ragtop, my bad on that one b/c when you began working your starter issue I didn't realize the starter was a PM type until AFTER you growled the armature and confirmed it wasn't shorted. Why I didn't think about this I dunno.....

But I can say in my experience from changing out hundreds of corroded ones on all types of motors, most of those nice factory issue starters are killed by water ingestion cranking or corrosion from drowning in a bilge full of water.

I currently suspect the OP has a cable/solenoid issue, sounds like there is high resistance somewhere and it doesn't take much at all.
 
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