96 XP. Known perfect AGM battery but slow/delayed cranking when trying to start

[dannyual767]

I have two 96 XPs. One of them is slow to crank. When I press the red start button I can hear the solenoid and it sounds like the starter engages the flywheel but it just stops right there for about 1/2-1 second. Then it turns the motor over and fires the engine 100% of the time. It is a very unnerving feeling to be out on the water and go to start the ski and it acts like the battery is dead. It's not dead and as long as you keep the red starter button pushed for 1-2 secs, the ski starts up every time.

My wife rode this ski a lot last summer but it made her very nervous and she didn't want to shut the ski down out on the water. This year I decided to replace parts to see if I could fix it. So far I've failed :facepalm: .

Here are two videos with sound so you can hear what I'm trying to explain in words. The first one is with me using the red start/stop switch and the second is with me bypassing that switch. The engine was not primed to ensure that it wouldn't actually start.

[video]http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dannyual767/media/IMG_03871.mp4.html[/video]

[video]http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dannyual767/media/IMG_03861-1.mp4.html[/video]




Here is a laundry list of what I've done:

1. Replaced the AGM battery with the AGM battery out of the other XP that cranks normal. No difference.
I even paralleled two AGM batteries and it made no difference.
2. Cannibalized the known good starter out of the other XP. No difference.
3. Swapped in the known good solenoid from the other XP. No difference.
4. Replaced all three battery cables (2 pos, 1 neg) with known good cables from the other XP. No difference.
5. Bypassed the red start/stop switch with a toggle switch wired to the battery and solenoid. No difference :banghead: !

If this were a car engine, I'd say that I've got the initial ignition timing set too far advanced.

I really want to fix whatever is causing this slow/delayed cranking. Please give me your thoughts but keep in mind my laundry list above. Thanks, guys!


And yes, I know I've got a serious mildew problem on my handlebar cover!

 

[Krispy]

I have two 96 XPs. One of them is slow to crank. When I press the red start button I can hear the solenoid and it sounds like the starter engages the flywheel but it just stops right there for about 1/2-1 second. Then it turns the motor over and fires the engine 100% of the time. It is a very unnerving feeling to be out on the water and go to start the ski and it acts like the battery is dead. It's not dead and as long as you keep the red starter button pushed for 1-2 secs, the ski starts up every time.

My wife rode this ski a lot last summer but it made her very nervous and she didn't want to shut the ski down out on the water. This year I decided to replace parts to see if I could fix it. So far I've failed :facepalm: .

Here are two videos with sound so you can hear what I'm trying to explain in words. The first one is with me using the red start/stop switch and the second is with me bypassing that switch. The engine was not primed to ensure that it wouldn't actually start.

[video]http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dannyual767/media/IMG_03871.mp4.html[/video]

[video]http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dannyual767/media/IMG_03861-1.mp4.html[/video]




Here is a laundry list of what I've done:

1. Replaced the AGM battery with the AGM battery out of the other XP that cranks normal. No difference.
I even paralleled two AGM batteries and it made no difference.
2. Cannibalized the known good starter out of the other XP. No difference.
3. Swapped in the known good solenoid from the other XP. No difference.
4. Replaced all three battery cables (2 pos, 1 neg) with known good cables from the other XP. No difference.
5. Bypassed the red start/stop switch with a toggle switch wired to the battery and solenoid. No difference :banghead: !

If this were a car engine, I'd say that I've got the initial ignition timing set too far advanced.

I really want to fix whatever is causing this slow/delayed cranking. Please give me your thoughts but keep in mind my laundry list above. Thanks, guys!


And yes, I know I've got a serious mildew problem on my handlebar cover!

Well,

It seems like you are going along at the right pace to figure this out. It sure is nice having another identical ski to swap parts to and from to find the problem area.

Personally I would be looking at connection quality. Check that all of your battery and ground connections are clean and tight. I can't tell you how many times I have seen poor connections that look like they are fine.

A good way to test these connections would be to check resistance along the wire from one end of the other. For instance If you want to check the resistance of the wire feeding the starter take one probe and place it on the starter lug (the actual nut bolt assembly, not the wire) and likewise on the solenoid assembly (the nut bolt part, not the wire) by doing this you are finding the resistance of the whole wire assy including the connections. Compare these resistance values to the known good ski and see what you have. I would do this test for all of the large wires in the ignition system.

Another check would be to perform a compression test on the engine and see if one may have more compression than the other, it is kind of a stretch but it may be worth a look.

Keep us in the loop!

Chris

 

[doomann88]

My 96 xp. Has these EXACT same symptoms. In for results On this one. Mine will behave this way whether I'm only on the agm battery or with battery+ jump pack. Always seems to start though.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Is there also a negative cable that runs near the starter?


Repairing and selling iPads, iPhones and Mini iPads.

 

[racerxxx]

My 96 xp. Has these EXACT same symptoms. In for results On this one. Mine will behave this way whether I'm only on the agm battery or with battery+ jump pack. Always seems to start though.

Battery+jump pack=Blown MPEM

You really do not want to boost the battery, look at the decal right where you seat latches on the front.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[dannyual767]

Krispy, as far as connections go, I used a flat file to clean the ends of all 6 battery cables (1 neg and 2 pos for each ski.) I also filed the AGM battery lugs nice and clean.

I tried adding a second negative cable that was attached to a bolt on the rear engine mounting plate. This was in addition to the stock neg cable location on the starter itself.

The starter positive lug is where the positive cable from the solenoid connects. I swapped the starter from the known, normal cranking XP so I know that that lug is clean and works.

I swapped the known good solenoid from the other XP so I know those lugs are clean as well.

Remember, I've swapped all of the known, good parts off of the "normal cranking" XP with the exception of the actual engine itself! Problem persists.

 

[dannyual767]

Is there also a negative cable that runs near the starter?


Repairing and selling iPads, iPhones and Mini iPads.

Coastie, as I said earlier, I've replaced all of the cables with cables from the "normal cranking" ski. In fact, I tried two negative cables in parallel. One connected to the stock location (starter body) and the other negative cable connected to the engine's rear mounting plate. No difference.

 

[dannyual767]

My 96 xp. Has these EXACT same symptoms. In for results On this one. Mine will behave this way whether I'm only on the agm battery or with battery+ jump pack. Always seems to start though.

When you say "jump pack" are you talking about one of these?

If so, I don't see any problem with that since that is the same as connecting two 12V batteries in parallel.

However, if you mean a battery charger or jump starter battery charger, then yes, heed what racerxxx said before you fry your computer!


Lets hope that someone can lead us to what is actually causing this slow/delayed cranking!

 

[68ragtop]

Interestingly, both of my 800's (97 XP & 96GSX) sometimes have the symptom your describing. Not very often, & very random. Hit the start button, the starter engages & there is a slight cranking hesitation. Very symptomatic of a weak starter, Battery or connection.

While my starters could be & probably are weak, I have come to the conclusion that it probably happens when the crankshaft is resting right at the beginning of next compression stroke, so the starter has to immediately overcome the compression when it engages.

Now that this post has revived my interest, I will test this theory next time I am in the shop & see if I can manually rotate the crank to that position & re-create the problem. I will post my findings. I never bothered to look any further as both skis will always start

EDIT: For the record , starters can definitely get weak. This happened last year on a 4-tec project ski. The starter could not overcome the compression when the engine was hot. On the 4tec N/A, the compression is around 180-190. When the engine is hot & just powered down, the compression will read about 10% higher for about 15 minutes. this was just past the capability of the tired starter. Replaced it with a new one & it was cured. (took me a while to figure that one out)

I am Not diagnosing this as your problem with your 96 XP, just saying it can happen. What is your compression at this time?

 

[dannyual767]

ragtop, that is exactly what is happening. I can watch the driveshaft rotate as I press the starter button. It appears to hit right at a compression point and stop. Eventually the starter overcomes the compression and cranks the engine and it fires up each and every time.

Last fall right before winterization, I measured compression on both XPs. The XP in question had about 145psi in each cylinder. The good cranking XP is about 5psi less, 140 per cylinder.

 

[dannyual767]

For the record, I've actually tried 3 different OEM Denso, white starters and they all do the same thing.

1. The starter that was in the ski
2. The starter out of the good cranking ski
3. A spare OEM Denso that I bought about a year ago

I guess it's possible that all 3 of these starters are tired and need a rebuild. Perhaps the extra 5 psi of compression is just enough to "break the camel's back."

 

[68ragtop]

your engine is for sure hanging up on the compression point, you can hear it in the video. But, normally a healthy electrical system, starter & battery will over come the compression, especially if the crankshaft has a little rotation before the compression stroke.

If it was me, I would first take a compression reading on both cylinders & make sure its not much over 150psi, then check all the battery cables, including the connection on the starter itself & ground to the block from the battery.
If those are good, try a known good battery if one is available. If you have a volt meter, place it on the battery & see what it reads at the time of the pausing. (you will need a quick reacting multimeter, or an analog style to do this)

 

[68ragtop]

Just missed your compression comment. 140 PSI, should be no issue at all. Have you tested it currently?
Is it really loaded up with oil internally. you would be amazed how high the compression can rocket with extra oil in there.

 

[manolocross]

Did you check the amount of teeth( count them) that is on the starters??? I think for 717 is 9 and 787 is 8. That would change the gear ratio. The starters also look identical. Just a thought....I think they both would work also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LouDoo]

Battery+jump pack=Blown MPEM

You really do not want to boost the battery, look at the decal right where you seat latches on the front.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

I'm gonna agree with Racer on this one, I know a lot of guys use them with no problems. I've got an invoice from Riva Motorsports for an MPEM I replaced in my 96GTI that says different. Personally I won't use them.

Lou

 

[racerxxx]

Did you check the amount of teeth( count them) that is on the starters??? I think for 717 is 9 and 787 is 8. That would change the gear ratio. The starters also look identical. Just a thought....I think they both would work also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

717 starter has through holes for mounting, 787 has tapped holes for mounting. Early 787 starters were 9 tooth and later were switched to 8 tooth.

 

[68ragtop]

I'm gonna agree with Racer on this one, I know a lot of guys use them with no problems. I've got an invoice from Riva Motorsports for an MPEM I replaced in my 96GTI that says different. Personally I won't use them.

Lou

Last spring I went and looked at a 98? white motored 951 GSX. It supposedly ran, but no working electronics (gauges, etc) & of course needed a battery. when I walked into the sellers garage & tried to start it. his battery was dead as a doornail, seller then grabbed the cables from his charger & turned towards the ski. I freaked out a little & told him I brought a battery with. I warned him of the risk & he said he had done it a few times now....... I walked away as there was a little too much risk with that one. Fuses were good on the MPEM, but no voltage output for accessories.

Couldn't help but wonder if he didn't cause the problem from boosting it with the charger.

 

[dannyual767]

ragtop, the hard to crank ski has 145psi of compression per hole. That was from compression readings I took last summer and in the early winter as I was winterizing the skis.

This ski has had the problem pretty much the whole time I've owned it. 3+yrs now and I really want to fix it and make it normal.

 

[dannyual767]

Like I posted earlier, I've tried 3 white, Denso, OEM starters including the one that cranks the other XP just fine. None of them will crank this problem child ski normally.

I know the chance is slim but do you guys think that it's possible that all three of my starters are on the weak side? Maybe they can crank my 140psi ski but just don't have the grunt to properly crank the 145psi ski? Doesn't seem that likely but I guess it's still possible.

I've never rebuilt a starter but I know those brushes wear out and need to be replaced.

 

[dannyual767]

I'm gonna agree with Racer on this one, I know a lot of guys use them with no problems. I've got an invoice from Riva Motorsports for an MPEM I replaced in my 96GTI that says different. Personally I won't use them.

Lou

Lou, I'm not totally sure that I understand what you're saying here.

Are you saying that hooking up two 12V batteries in parallel could wreck an MPEM?

 

[LouDoo]

I see no problem with jumping from a battery, just saying about 10 years ago I used a jump box to start my ski and blew out the MPEM. Maybe the jump box was bad, but I haven't used one since.

Lou

 

[dannyual767]

Thanks for the clarification, Lou.

I don't see any problem with jumping from another battery either but I do know that strange things can happen. Sparks and other gremlins could rear their ugly heads and blow stuff out. It happens.

 

[68ragtop]

Do you have a multimter?

If so, I have some tests for you.

first make sure you have 12.3-12.6 initial charge on the battery.

to check your negative cable, put a meter probe on the negative terminal on the battery, then the other on the engine block. (A good ground like a clean bolt head, temp sensor base, etc). you should have no voltage at all. turn the engine over. while cranking you will read some voltage, but it should be around .5 volts initially or less on a good connection. maybe only .25 volts during a normal crank.

Then check the positive cables. Put one meter probe on the positive battery cable & put the other probe on the starter positive terminal, (directly on the starter.) When you first do this, you will see 12 volts because the solenoid is open & your meter is finding a ground through the starters armature. Hit the start button & you should get the same readings as you found on the negative cable. could be slightly higher because there is twice as much positive cable as it goes through the solenoid. but still in the same .5 & .25 ballpark.

Also take note of the voltage you have on directly on the battery while its cranking too.

Let us know what you find!

 

[nwscoobie]

Have you tried to start it with the plugs removed? My GSX has the same issue and it has an after market starter from the previous owner I checked the teeth and they are pretty worn on the starter and the starter ring. It will hangup sometimes. I am just going to run it till it finally stops.

 

[dannyual767]

68ragtop, I've replaced all of those battery cables with the battery cables out of the ski that starts just fine. In some cases, I actually ran two cables parallel just in case. No difference.

The battery. I think I've made it very clear that it is a 100% charged, fully functioning AGM battery. In fact I've taken the battery out of the other "normal cranking ski" and hooked it up parallel with the bad ski's battery and there is no difference.

I have 4 USA made AGM batteries for my four skis. All of them have been in this problem ski last summer. None of them acts any differently than any of the others. It's not a battery problem.

Just to be sure about my cables, I should have time tomorrow to run those tests that you described (I think those tests are the same as what is listed in my Clymer Sea Doo Shop Manual.)