What to look for in a used PWC? What's the SBC of 2-strokes?

[CZSteve]

Hello again and thanks in advance for putting up w/ the newb questions...

We plan on getting a 3-seater for playing around on the lake w/ the kids while using in conjunction w/ our pontoon; have a budget of $5k at the upper range - also considering a sportier 2-seater in addition to the 3-seater if the right deal can be found and stay in budget.

I'm an old gearhead and familiar with prop boats but would appreciate some insight as to what to look for when inspecting used PWC's.
I've been told it's highly recommended to actually ride the ski so it's under load for testing - Is it 'absolutely' necessary to actually ride or if you test the cylinder compression will that alleviate the bulk of the concerns?
- Besides verifying a strong motor is there any other purpose of test driving? I assume verifying the pump / impeller / wear ring is part of the test drive procedure. Is it just the wear ring and possible impeller nicks that are a concern?
(Doesn't seem that hard or expensive to replace the wear ring and something required over time anyway).
- If a motor has decent / matched compression and passes visual inspection am I reasonably safe purchasing without a test drive if it's convenient to do so?
- I've googled 'Inspecting used PWC' already and done some reading but would appreciate any available input.

Right now I'm thinking of going w/ a 2-stroke for lower up front cost and cheaper replacement parts as needed; I'm also not at all against finding a ski w/ a bad motor and replacing it myself w/ a re-manufactured motor.

Also - What's the Small Block Chevy of 2-strokes (apologies to the Mopar and Blue Oval crowd )? ie: What motor is relatively reliable? Easy to work on? Parts available at a fair price?

So far it seams that the 951 while have excellent power-to-weight ratio seams to be prone to a shorter life span and the 787 seams to be held in pretty high regard; or is it a case where the 951 has generally been used more in the hot rod XD style boats and thus more prone to abuse or ridden harder by younger crowds?

- That being we are waiting on a response from a gentleman that has two GTX-DI's; they look nice from the ad but should we be leery of the 951 motor?

EDIT: What's the story and concern w/ grey fuel lines? Is it just a matter of changing out the lines or do the grey lines cause problems down stream with the carbs or injectors?

Thanks again,
Steve

 

[Spimothy Leary]

the SBC of 2 strokes would be the Yamaha 701 (wave venture, or XL 700 Wave runner models among others) the 2nd on my list would be the Seadoo 717 motor (many models, mainly GSX, and GSI I guess fits the family description, but don't quote me on that I've never owned a 717 so i'm not familiar with all the models that came with a 717, i just know that they are hard to kill)

both the yami 701 and the SD 717 are workhorses and take lots of abuse, but that's just general, i'd rather have a well maintained 951 than a beat up 701... even tho the 701 will still probably outlast it.

the opposite of the SBC would be the 951 DI Model, hard to diagnose, expensive to fix, and most mechanics won't touch one unless they are either a) experienced with DI's and have the tools, or b) want a cash cow since they'll bill you out the azz to fix it. IMO the 951 DI is the hardest,most complicated 2 stroke on the planet. (but when they run, they run great)

Personally I love 951 (Carbed models, not DI) but you just have to have deeper pockets for repairs when the time comes. But,, you will get an enchanced experience when they are running right, more power !!!

With that said, I like the Seadoo 787 Models the best, it meets the 717 and the 951 half way with good reliability, easier and cheaper to work on, less prone to major issues, in general, a good all around engine, and its pretty easy to modify for improved performance.

if you have a 5K budget, you can probably buy two ski's.. (if you buy two DI Models, then only the good lord can save you)

grey fuel lines, they gunk up, and need replaced, but its cheap & easy, $40 in material and a couple of hours is all thats needed, although it usually goes hand in hand with carb inspection/rebuild, which is $100 in material and another afternoon.

if its a family ski, and speed is not as important to you (45 mph max) , then i'd probably look for a nice clean Yamaha XL700 or a nice Clean Seadoo GSI.

Would I own either ? no.. I find them boring as hell, (I owned a XL700 for almost 2 years) but my wife absolutely Loved my XL700, it was smooth, stable, quiet, lots of storage and dam near impossible to fall off of, (turning radius is about 15 feet). She hates my XP, (bumpy, tippy, noisy, no storage and easy to fall off of. (turning radius about 15 inches)

lastly, i'll stress, if your budget is 5K, try to spend less than 4, and set aside $1,000 for immediate or future repairs, its very rare to find a perfectly running ski that needs nothing.

re: water test, i'm in favor of a water test but its not absolutely necessary, just preferred, to make sure it runs smooth through all speeds, hits max speed properly, turns smoothly, etc. I wouldn't buy a ski w/o a water test any more than i'd buy a car w/o driving it around the neighborhood. (although I bought my current ski out of the back of a pickup truck, no water test,,, I learned my lesson the hard way, it needed $600 in work before it ever hit the water (no labor, just parts), the guy scammed me, and duly noted: it had perfect compression...)

 

[ocod]

^X2 on 717 workhorse and stay away from anything not with carbs!
Like I said in other thread 717>787>951 in term of SBC
The opposite is reliability.

The 787 are in greater numbers than 717 b/c most want more hp....

The grey lines issue is ethanol gas and prolonged sitting of gas turn lines to green goo thus clogging carbs-->kaboom!!!!!

 

[Dr Honda]

Yep... what they said.

But... there was a couple changes in the Yami 701, and not all the parts are interchangeable. The WaveVentrue is a terrible hull. But... like above... the newer XL700 hull was a nice ride. But... the XL760 had a few more HP, and it had reverse, and basic gauges. The XL700 only had an oil light.

Now where I differ... I'm not a fan of the 951. The 720 or 800 Rotax engines make good power, and are reliable. So... as I was saying in your other thread.... find a GTi or GTx, and you will be happy.

The fuel line issue was answered.

If you plan on doing a full rebuild, and the price is right (cheap) then you don't need to go for a test ride. But... if you are going to buy a ski at a normal or premium price... then you want to make sure it works. A ski on it's deathbed will sound fine on the trailer. But... once in the water... all the problems can come out. Hard starting... won't idle... won't reach full RPM... cavitation that's so bad, it won' move... takes on water... etc.

Before the water test... you want to check the compression. On a seadoo, 150 psi is want you want to see, with the exception of the 951. It's around 135 psi. This is on a cold engine, with no extra oil in the cyl's. If you get +15psi low... then that engine is getting ready for a rebuild.

FYI... the Yami 701 or 760 will be around 125 psi.

Please stay on one thread. You can continue to ask questions... and it will help people stay on track.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

doc... one thing i wonder... besides the sponson's is there really any difference between the Wave venture and the XL hulls ?

reason I ask, i had the "opportunity" to ride a wave venture a few weeks ago (brought a pillow so I could nap during u turns) and when we had the Venture and the XL on a double trailer, besides the sponson's (and the gloriously ugly purple) I honestly couldn't tell the dam things apart, same length, same style, and appeared identical except for the improved sponsons. (improved is a relative term, i think the turn radius on the venture was about 15 feet, on the XL maybe 12 )

and oops. yes your right the 760 had more "features" i keep forgetting that I owned a 760 not the 700, although IMO there is very little difference in performance. If I had to do it all over again, i'd probably get the 700 model since parts are much more plentiful, they made a gazillion 701's.

 

[Strizzo]

probably the SBC (or SBF if you're a ford guy) would be the 718 engine. they make decent power, and are reliable and low maintenance. probably the LS1 of rotax would be the 800. pretty good power, good reliability but requires a bit more maintenace and care. the 951 i would steer you away from as a beginner. especially the DI engines as they can be very difficult to diagnose and fix when they are not running right.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

and sorry ford/chevy lovers.
but the Toyota 3.0 V6 is my personal choice....hands down

 

[DSchmidt54]

Get a 96 or 97 GTX........they have the 787 which is reliable and still has awesome power.......easy to maintain ..etc. Just as long as you go through all the basic maintenance that the guys stated above...

I have a 96 and its great! can haul 3 full grown adults on it no problem....tows wakeboards and tubes fine......doesnt get much air on jumps but its still really fun.......and with an R&D intake grate i can crank out turns like my buddys GSX ......

Buy two and then acommodate..........or get a GTX and a GSX lol.

 

[suke]

The WaveVentrue is a terrible hull.

I keep hearing this......but I love mine. Handles great in rough water, is super smooth, and is a blast to ride. Does great towing toys, and shiz. It's a good family ski. Stone cold reliable, it's quick( not fast by any means, don't get that confused), plenty of storage, and TONS of parts out there for it.

My wave venture handles better than my XP did. Granted my local lake is always choppy. My XP felt very loose like it was going to spin out at any second. Venture was planted and very sure footed.

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

I keep hearing this......but I love mine. Handles great in rough water, is super smooth, and is a blast to ride. Does great towing toys, and shiz. It's a good family ski. Stone cold reliable, it's quick( not fast by any means, don't get that confused), plenty of storage, and TONS of parts out there for it.

My wave venture handles better than my XP did. Granted my local lake is always choppy. My XP felt very loose like it was going to spin out at any second. Venture was planted and very sure footed.

Yeah i would have to agree, the 701 is probably the most reliable engine out there, and then the 717. They both dont really make that much power, which tends to keep the engine healthy for longer meaning more hours. They are also both very basic and easy to work on, especially the 701. Yamahas with the 650, 701, and 760 engines you can usually swap them out for each other very easily. My dad has a 1993 Yamaha PRO VXR and we bought it and didnt check the oil filter or oil, took it out and it burned a piston. Realized what happened when i pulled the engine, but i had probably rode it for 15 min with no oil. A super mod from PWC today lives within 10 miles from me and had a few good 650 engines and I bout a whole engine from him with no core for $200, and swapped it in within about a couple hours of work. Very easy engines to work on, although i will say the ski is freaking boring as hell, nothing like my GSX with the 787. The yamaha is super reliable and low maintainence, but it has no balls and a 30 ft turn radius it seems like

 

[CZSteve]

Dr Honda - I'll stay on this thread unless you want to merge. Sorry, saw this is slightly different and assumed better to start fresh.

Question on 2-stroke VS 4-stroke:
I've heard from others that 4-strokes have a longer lifespan than 2-strokes.
Any truth to 4-strokes having better longevity? If so, why?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

Its really hard to say, because 4 strokes in skis havent been around as long as 2 strokes. There are plenty of people on this site that will tell you they are still riding their original 2 stroke ski. We have an 85 JS550 and it runs beautifully, have never done anything to it except change spark plugs and grease it. Alot of lakes, especially out west are starting to ban 2 strokes on their lakes, something to think of...well, actually being in texas, you would probably be the last state to ever enforce that rule! lol

 

[Strizzo]

Its really hard to say, because 4 strokes in skis havent been around as long as 2 strokes. There are plenty of people on this site that will tell you they are still riding their original 2 stroke ski. We have an 85 JS550 and it runs beautifully, have never done anything to it except change spark plugs and grease it. Alot of lakes, especially out west are starting to ban 2 strokes on their lakes, something to think of...well, actually being in texas, you would probably be the last state to ever enforce that rule! lol

the only lakes that have banned pwcs all together are private lakes, the national park service has banned PWC at all national seashores, and all 2-stroke non-DI pwcs from lake mead (lake mead and mohave) NRA, and glen canyon (lake powell) NRA.

 

[BMANN06]

I would be even more cautious with the used 4 strokes than used 2 strokes. There's alot more moving parts and there are some pretty serious "known" issues with the earlier models. That's not to say stay away from them, but when I buy used 4 stroke seadoo's I'm buy them in "non-running" condition in that I'll take every the engine apart piece by piece and have a completely rebuilt engine just so I know what I've got. I used to have a two stroke boat, it had the 787s and it was awesome. But I hated the added cost of the expensive 2 stroke oil, or running low on oil in the middle of a long weekend etc. I also don't miss the phone calls from the wife "I can't get the boat started" on weekends when I was away, because she flooded the shit out of it. This is just my opinion and I'm not saying either is better, I'm a younger guy I like the technology and reliability in the rotax 4 strokes but it takes some time to understand all the systems in it. If your thinking of a 4 stroke, I would recommend a 06+ GTI SE as a family ski.

 

[CZSteve]

Opinions on the Yamaha 760 motor?
There's a 1998 Yamaha GP760X advertised for $450 w/ a trailer and a seized motor - pics looks decent online and obviously they never lie...

A standard 760 motor @ SBT is $745 and a premium motor is $995. If the 760 is a strong base and this ski is in sound condition I kinda like the idea of going w/ a re-man motor thus knowing the history and having a warranty.

What are the differences between the Standard & Premium motors @ SBT?
Appears to pretty much be the 1yr VS 2yr warranty and either comes standard w/ the gasket kit & oil; I could care less about the calendar... (just saying that for the Wife's benefit :thumbsup

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

dont really know much about the 760's, but that seems like a fairly good price, especially with trailer.

 

[CZSteve]

I just noticed that they're only offering a bill-of-sale for the 760 & trailer.
This doesn't seem to be all that uncommon w/ boats but how much of a PIA is it to deal w/ getting registration?

 

[ocod]

I just noticed that they're only offering a bill-of-sale for the 760 & trailer.
This doesn't seem to be all that uncommon w/ boats but how much of a PIA is it to deal w/ getting registration?

You have to check your DMV/TAX Collectors office if you are a Title State for the ski.
If you are and its a no title walk away or its a cheap parts ski
The trailer get old tag to get your new one and usually sign registration card for license plate

 

[Dr Honda]

Some states are impossible to get a new title issued, unless you are the owner. I've seen a bunch of nice skis, but the titled owner was nowhere to be found... so I passed on them.

FYI... it's supposed to be hard to get a new title. That's what keeps people from steeling them.


Finally... that's only a 2 passenger ski. The XL was the 3 passenger.

 

[CZSteve]

Finally... that's only a 2 passenger ski. The XL was the 3 passenger.

Thanks Dr.
Ad stated 3-person but data plate does not lie; clearly showed GP760X and I did not catch that it was only a 2-seater in the initial Google search.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

Thanks Dr.
Ad stated 3-person but data plate does not lie; clearly showed GP760X and I did not catch that it was only a 2-seater in the initial Google search.

personally i'm not a fan of the GP hulls, I preferred the XL models much more, granted the porpoising issues can be resolved, but overall, I still didn't like it.

 

[CZSteve]

Opinions on the 1997 Sea-Doo GTI?
Local seller has dropped price to $1900 w/ trailer in ad; going to call to see about going by to look - it's a bit older than we were planning but the style still seems to look good.

Any other differences between the GTI & GTX besides the motor?
How does the 717 compare to the 787 RAVE motor?
Are the bolt patterns for mounts & accessories the same between the two? If replacing, can the 787 be installed into the GTI?
It seems the RAVE valve system has had good reviews; I understand the cleaning maintenance required but that seems pretty straight forward.

 

[ocod]

Opinions on the 1997 Sea-Doo GTI?
Local seller has dropped price to $1900 w/ trailer in ad; going to call to see about going by to look - it's a bit older than we were planning but the style still seems to look good.

Any other differences between the GTI & GTX besides the motor?
How does the 717 compare to the 787 RAVE motor?
Are the bolt patterns the same between the two? If replacing, can the 787 be installed into the GTI?
It seems the RAVE valve system has had good reviews; I understand the cleaning maintenance required but that seems pretty straight forward.

No, the two engines can not be swapped. Different mounting points and electronics. It's 85 vs 110 hp b/c of the RAVES.
Its up to you 717 vs 787. Comes down to whats available in your area.
You find more models with 787 VS 717 though

If it was a 96 price would be on the high side in Florida's standards.

The 97 GTI changed hull that year.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

Opinions on the 1997 Sea-Doo GTI?
Local seller has dropped price to $1900 w/ trailer in ad; going to call to see about going by to look - it's a bit older than we were planning but the style still seems to look good.

Any other differences between the GTI & GTX besides the motor?
How does the 717 compare to the 787 RAVE motor?
Are the bolt patterns for mounts & accessories the same between the two? If replacing, can the 787 be installed into the GTI?
It seems the RAVE valve system has had good reviews; I understand the cleaning maintenance required but that seems pretty straight forward.

I had a 96 gti with the 717. It was a great ski. Great for cruising, like a Buick I believe Lou calls his. The 97 went to the same hull as the GTX but stayed with the peppy 85hp motor. It could run 45-48 ish with one person and has the power to pull a tube. The GTI is a great family ski and its hard to kill that 717 motor

yip, that's pretty much right...

1900 seems dam high for December in Texas, unless prices in TX are much higher than I think. As a seller I'd price a MINT 1997 GTI at around $1800 on a trailer, and take the first $14-1500 that somebody offered.

As a buyer I don't think i'd bring more than $1500 to the table, and if anything at all was questionable, (gauges, minor skid marks on hull, tread on trailer tires, rust on springs, bearings, etc, would all be deductions from there) But again, i'm biased, here in FL, its really hard to sell any 2 stroke in the 2K range that was made in teh 90's, especially if its a 717. And this time of year, he's not going to get a LOT of response to ad's so you might be one of the few serious buyers he meets in the next 4 months, basically i'm saying you should be lowballing with $100 bills on this one.

2 years ago it was easy to get 1900-2200 but not now.

 

[Dr Honda]

$1900 is a good price if it's in good shape. In the summer... I would expect that ski to sell for $2200 to $2500. (in good condition, and on a nice trailer)

It has the "Newer" style hull... so it looks good.

Sounds like one you should go look at. BUT... at that price... it needs a real water test. As we were talking about before... without a water test... it has to be cheap. ($1k or less) Also... ask if the engine has been rebuilt. If it's the original engine... then check the compression, and get a run time out of the MPEM. Properly maintained... and a 720 engine can go well past 400 hrs.

It's not going to be a speed demon with the 720... but it should be fast enough to put a smile on your face... and get everyone wet.