Starter help!

[bigler]

So my GSX is totaled and the insurance company gave me a check. I am buying a friends 97 seadoo xp. it is a really nice machine with pretty much everything replaced so far. problem is that it doesnt start. this is what he said:


"ok so i tried charging up the old battery (2yrs old) and starting it. battery showed full charge in ten minutes so its obviously shot. bought a new battery and charged it, tried to start it and it cranked over for about 2-3 seconds then beeped. pulled the key and tried again and it just went click click click, the sound came from the relay and solinoid in the electrical box. we tried to bypass the starter by putting a screw driver across the two terminals on the relay/solinoid. nothing happened when we did this, just heard the same clicking noise from before."

so I dont know if it is obviously the solenoid or if it can be something different. before i buy this seadoo i want to know that im not spending 300$ in repairs to get something serious repaired. what do u guys think? its a 1 yr old starter so we dont know if the starter is bad or not. what does the clicking mean?

 

[kustomkarl]

The problem sounds like it has a wire connection problem. Check the wires from the battery Red+ to the solenoid relay at the starter and the Black- from the battery to the engine near the starter on the engine. The wires connections should clean and have a good connection. Try to have the ground near the starter as close as possible to reduce the resistance of power from the starter. If you still have a problem you might t need to cut and out new ends on the wires so it gets a good connection. Sometimes the wires corrode from the inside out.

Good luck with the new machine.

Karl

 

[custompartsguy]

try this as well, even if it looks good pull the ground at the motor clean it as well as the mount and put it back on, a click is usually not the starter....it is usually a bad connection...usually a ground or a low battery....a bad stater will usually not make any noise....however I have came across some that have just clicked and tap on the side of it with a hammer it should respond if the stater is clicking however this usually does not click because of being hung up......check your connections very well,.

 

[bigler]

hey guys. thanks for the ideas. I just got done going thru everything with my dad and we found that all the connections thru the starter relay are fine and power is getting to the starter motor. we dont hear a click but we can hear the starter trying to move. we think the engine is seized. does this sound accurate? i have a fresh charge on the battery and i get 2 good loud beeps when i plug in. when i try to start it, there arent even clicks. i thought it could be a fuse but they were all fine. power was getting to the starter but it wasnt able to move. so if you guys think the engine is seized, i need some info on un-seizing it. I am very unfamiliar to the 97 XP and where i will want to torque to un-seize it. so if you guys could give me some detailed info or link me to a good guild that would make my day. Thanks for the help, I need this sexy beast ready by memorial weekend!

 

[custompartsguy]

first thing...go in and grap the pto by hand and try to turn it both ways...if it does not move at all, pull the starter and repeat trying to turn the pto by hand

 

[custompartsguy]

in doing this you will find out if your motor is hung up or if the starter is hung up

 

[kustomkarl]

Actually, the best way to check the engine is to remove the spark plugs and turn the PTO, the rear of the engine in a counter clockwise direction. Spray some PB Blaster down the spark plug holes and let it set for a couple hours. Than use a Pipe wrench and very carefully rotate the PTO over to free it up. If you keep using the starter, it might fry the starter. Check the jet pump also for any obstructions in the pump area too. If the engine does turn over it could be the starter, or on the 97 XP, I believe the starter has a bendix inside the case of the magneto( if memory serves me right, I cant open manuals on this puter.) If it the bend ix it can sometimes be cleaned and installed again. Let us know how it goes, get the engine to rotate by hand and we'll go from there.

Karl

 

[bigler]

ok. i brought his seadoo back to him so i cant try it until sunday. we are thinking it could be something else now because he said he got it to turn over a few times the first time he tried starting it this season. im going to try turning the drive shaft anyways. how do i get to the PTO? there is some kind of black plate over it i think. do i just take that off and then i will see it?

 

[kustomkarl]

Yes, I believe on that model the plate just comes right off.
Let us now how it goes, It looks like a cool machine.

Karl

 

[bigler]

so the problem got more complicated. me and two friends worked on it for a while last night. when we tried starting it, it continued to not make a sound when we try. when we jump the relay, still no sound but the relay sparks. we took the starter off the engine but left the positive and negative on it and jumped the relay and the starter spun perfectly. then we hooked it back up to the engine and when we tried jumping the relay again, the engine turned over like twice, then nothing happened. now it doesnt do anyhting. it seems like it needs a new solinoid because when we jump it, we can get things to work. but then it doesnt work when everything is hooked up correctly and we try jumping it. we are bringing it in to the shop today i think so tell me what you think. and does anyone know what a seadoo shop will charge me to have them figure this problem out?

 

[popasodatastie]

The seadoo shop i know charges $80 to diagnois

i have an no spark problem and they said it would be $80 to diagnose the problem and then it would be even more to fix it once they figured it out. What kinda machines do they use to start it thats what i'm wondering?

 

[bigler]

ouch! well that is a joke because it takes them litterally 5 minutes to diagnose the problem with their equiptment. another question, what engine does the 97 xp have? this one im buying says its a 787cc and i found a different one for sale that says its a 951cc. im wondering if one is wrong or if there is a sport edition or something with a larger engine.

and im still wondering about the other problems haha. i need to get this fixed by friday!!

 

[All Things Custom]

If its a 97 it has the 787... in 98 they upgraded to the 951.

 

[bigler]

ok so i went to the seadoo shop and the guy didnt even let me bring it in for diagnostics. he told me he was 99% sure the starter relay was the problem. so 44$ later i found out that i was in that 1%. it did the same thing, no sound, nothing at all. i didnt try to jump the relay again because i want to try and return it. i found out that there was a bad connection on the starter where the positive hooks in and i fixed that.

then i found out that my engine is seized. i took off that shroud and tried with my hand to spin it counter clockwise and clockwise. the problem now is that there isnt a way to torque the drive shaft. i have seen pictures of some PTO's and they have flat sides on them that you can use a wrench on but i dont have one on mine that i can see. this is what it looks like:

I couldnt get a good enough grip with a strap wrench so i dont know what else i can do to un-seize it. if anyone has un-seized an engine like this i need some help!

besides the seized engine, i still cant get the starter to spin when i unhook it from the engine and hit the start button. could it be the button/switch that is causing this? otherwise i am open to your expert opinions because i am stumped again.

thanks for the help

 

[custompartsguy]

honestly do not worry about the stater right now if your motor is hung up, I did suggest to try and turn the motor by hand before this point, but never the less the starter is not something I would worry about right now, but when you do get to it, push the start button while having a volt meter hooked up to the pos of the starter and see how many volts you get to it, if you get enough voltage to it that it should have to spin then its bad, if you do not get the voltage jump the relay and then see if you do, you may still need that relay/solenoid. But first you need to find out why the motor is hung up, it cannot be completly hung up because you said yourself that you got it to turn over a few times, I would try and turn that pto by hand if it does not turn pull the spark plugs then try to turn, if still no luck pull the head and see if it is just top end damage, beware you are mst likely rebuilding this motor.....did you already buy it from the guy?

 

[bigler]

I havent bought it yet. but i have invested 44$ and like 20 hours into it! I dont think the engine turned over. my friend said it did but i think it just made the one attempt to turn over and then stopped. i dont think the engine ever turned over but he probably thought it did. after pulling the spark plugs it didnt move either. i have no idea how to pull the top end or how much it would cost to have someone rebuild it because i have no experience in this. thanks very much for the help custompartsguy

 

[custompartsguy]

do not fear the worst untill you see the actual damage, may be less then you think, but hey take into consideration how much does the guy want for the ski vs lets say you need a 1000.00 rebuild, whats it worth to you, do you want to mess with it? It is nice that the guy let you do all that to it without buying it first. How much does he want for it?

 

[bigler]

he wanted 2500 for it but he dropped it to 2200 because we couldnt get it to start and he thought it was only the starter relay that needed to be replaced. i just went back out into the garage and tried to crank on it again but it doesnt budge. i just talked to this kid and he says he is sure it turned over earlier this spring when he first tried to start it. so is it possible that it got seized from sitting for a few weeks?

 

[custompartsguy]

Honstly anything can happen, however he is selling it.....I bet he knows what is wrong with it...none the less $2200 for a ski with a locked up motor? and its a 1997? I do not know what they are worth and maybe I am way off on the price but if it does have a nice trailer with it and clear title...maybe something like $1000 or so for it?



Pull the plugs and pour marvel mystery oil in the cylinders or pb blaster, I am not a big fan of wd40 but thats up to you.....let it sit overnight even and come back and try to work the pto back and fourth by hand untill it breaks loose.......know that it may not break loose......he could have sucked up water and it is rusted...but maybe your friend did get it to turn over some.....you might have a bad spot in the cylinders it is catching up on........but you are still going to want to tear down the top end and get a look at everything......I do not know if you can pull that head with the motor in the ski....I do not know enough to answer that for you....sorry...good luck with it, but I would not give him even close to 2k for it with a locked up motor.

 

[glenwhitt]

did anyone look at the pump? just a thought as it is connected 1 to 1 with the motor.

 

[col84]

I have a 99xp that the motor was seized on. I took the front cover of the motor and turned the crank with a ratchet. It takes awhile cause you've go to take the exhaust tube off and lift the engine a little but it's really not that bad. You can also check/clean the bendix while your in there.

 

[ski-d00]

ok, back to the basics with this, it really isn't complicated and I'm sure we can figure out the problem, just follow these steps.
1. pull the spark plugs out and try to turn the motor over by hand, if it doesn't turn by hand, something is locked up(could be many things and we will figure it out by process of elimination).
2. pull the pump off to make sure the lock up isn't in the pump

report back

 

[bigler]

ok me and my dad are going to take another stab at this in a few hours. hes buying a better strap wrench. with the plugs pulled, there isnt a budge. how/where do i pull off the pump? im fairly new to working on these and i have never done anything to a pump yet. the drive shaft should be able to turn both clockwise and counter clockwise correct? when we try our other strap wrench, I can see the impeller move like 2 milimeters and when i have the plugs sitting in the holes but not screwd all the way in i hear an oozing sound. I am afraid of breaking anything because I havent bought this ski yet. thanks for the help guys i really appreciate this.

 

[glenwhitt]

from the back of the ski you will have to remove the cables then there are 4 nuts holding the pump to the transom. Depending on how the last person put this together you may have to pry this sucker off and break away all the rvt that could be in there. The drive shaft will pull out of the impeller. You will then be able to sping the impeller in the pump, if not siezed.

 

[ski-d00]

take the plugs out completely, the oozing sound you here is probably the compression stroke trying to release the pressure through the plug hole.
yes, it will turn either way with only mild resistance, you should be able to turn only using your hands.

it doesn't sound locked up from your last post. do you have a strong, new battery or a jumper pack, this is very important to eliminate other possibilities. that 800 motor must have a very strong battery, not just a battery that you think took a charge and is probably ok.