Possible a dead Engine ? Please help

[Michael211_2000]

Wait a minute, you weren't the one on the watercraft when it last ran and stopped running? Your friend was on it, you weren't? Where were you, at the docks waiting or somewhere else entirely?

If your friend somehow hydrolocked the enigne while it was running, it will have badly bent a piston's connecting rod and depending on how badly bent the rod is it could well have the enigne locked up now (ie. the piston can't go all the way down, it's against the crankshaft if the connecting rod is badly enough bent). Was the oil milky at all when you got it back from your friend? Were there any signs it had been partly sunk? This is a new twist to this machine's condition now, you're relying on what your friend told you to be the true story of what happened that day.... and I have a doubt!

- Michael

 

[georgep]

Hey Mike, sorry I did not mention at the begging this. I did not really see any water in the craft but its possible he sunk it and did not tell me about it. Not sure cant point the finger cuz I did not see him ...he was over a thing. I know u said dont hammer it but after i got the little rod in there stuck i was thinking the only was without damaging the spark plug hosing is to press the piston down it did not go down...

I guess if I extract the oil I should see if he hydrolocked it right ?... Its a good lesson anyways.. dont give it to my friends anymore.. I guess I`ll learn how to rebuild the engine as well. I`ll get a premium account on here and I will take my time to rebuild it.

Any good guides other then the shop manual will be great.

 

[Michael211_2000]

Well you probably just ruined perfectly good pistons... they aren't cheap.

Just go ahead and pull the engine out (take the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold out seperately 1st, then you can chain the engine and lift it out with a hoist after disconnecting all the sensors and the engine mount bolts). Get the engine on a bench, suck all the oil you can out, then start unbolting the head 1st and set it aside followed by unbolting the engine botttom so you can split the case open. Do please get your mechanic friend to help you with this... we don't need any more hammering on anything! Grrrrrrr! :-\

Oh do go ahead and drain your antifreeze out before disconnecting the lines, wouldn't hurt to suck as much oil out as you can before trying to lift the engine out also (less mess to clean up).

- Michael

 

[KK40384]

Oh man I missed out on this dealing with my own mess after letting someone use my ski. I have never pulled out one of these so I can't imagine being much help but I'll keep an eye on this thread in case there's something I can contribute to it

 

[georgep]

alright here is the story.
By one of the member suggestion, Stupid me..yesterday I got that rod in and i tried to force it to come out by trying the engine etc etc I got mad and I probably did some damage to the second cylinder then i tried a bit not much with the hammer to make that cylinder go down without realizing I did more damage instead of using a 17mm socket from the supercharger and rotate that.. I shouldn't hold it properly and the rod would've been ok ..i shouldn't let it spin so much..i could've done a lot

Well today I did what a forum member mentioned to do with the supercharger and indeed I was able to rotate down the cylinder nr 2 and the rod moved but i cant take it out its bent. I did not do anymore damages so I said probably its best to now take the engine out....

What do you think I need to inspect after I take it out ? take the head out and check the cylinder 2.

Is there a way I can try to crank and start the engine if its on the bench or I do I need to put it all back in the hull ? I mean after I inspect and lets say rebuild it I dont wanna put it in there without starting first...

Pictures
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...A/yPXfAacj8oU/s640/Toronto-20120709-00042.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...Y/eHjYqxXdlQ8/s640/Toronto-20120709-00041.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...Q/yfw9MPDwk80/s640/Toronto-20120709-00040.jpg

 

[Michael211_2000]

You used a socket extension? Is that all that's in the cylinders? Stick another extension into the end of the one that's in the cylinder and see if it won't come on out. If it's too bent to come thru the spark plug tunnel, then just remove the valve cover and pull the tunnel out. Easy peesy.

I think you at least need to pull the head off to check the piston's after all this, this you can do with the engine still in the hull just remove the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold and set them aside. You'll need new head stretch bolts and a new head gasket before re-installing the head. This is assuming you find the piston's survived the hammering (which I explicitly had told you NOT TO!)... IDK though. :-\

So you turned the engine a little bit by the supercharger? Question is, which way did it turn you may have simply backed it off whatever part was preventing it from turning over. That hammering on top of a piston that wasn't at the bottom of it's stroke failed to move the piston, rather suggests something is indeed locking up the motor preventing it from turning over... only thing I can think of is a piston that's going down catching against the crankshaft counter-weight (which goes up as the piston comes down... they don't clear each other by very much). That would be from a badly bent connecting rod and if this is the case you'll have to temporarily bolt the head back on and pull the engine out of the hull to split it open.... fun, fun!

NO MORE HAMMER! Don't even think about it for any reason! :-|

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

Another look at the pics... yeah you're just hung up in the spark plug tunnel. Take your fingers and lift up on the edges of that plastic piece with ROTAX on it, it's just clipped onto the cover it pops right off. Then unbolt the valve cover and set it aside. Then pull the spark plug tunnel out, it's just stuck in there and held in place by the valve cover. Maybe a 5 minute task to remove it. Then you should be able to remove your bent socked extension. ;-)

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

Oh, once you get your socket extension out call your mechanic friend and see if he's got 1 of those little inspection camera thingies... you know they have the little remote camera on a flexible extension and then a little lcd screen to view what the camera sees? You might can get a look at the pistons this way without pulling the head off for now if he has one or knows somebody he can borrow one from.

- Michael

 

[georgep]

sorry Michael I know u said dont hammer it but i did it a bit thinking it might go down .. anyways my bad I know I cant hammer a piston lol but I guess I was too stressed and mad at the whole problem. Now I am taking my time no matter what ..no more rush as I can damage things...

I took out the valve cover and saw the spark plug tunnel. How can I take that tunnel out to remove that socket extension ? I tried to take the socket extension out but it did not so I will need the tunnel out. Do I need to remove the whole head for the tunnel to come out ? ..Anyways I`ll probably remove the head to inspect everything as the engine can for now still sit in the hull.

 

[Michael211_2000]

Just pull, the spark plug tunnels pop right out there's nothing holding them in place once the valve cover is removed.

- Michael

 

[georgep]

Thanks so much Mike. You are the men !!! I will never put anything though the spark plug hole AGAIN!!!
I took out the socket extension !!! I am so happy now. I looked though the spark plug hole and saw some scratches from the cylinder. Well I guess I wanna solve the first issue ..to start the engine and then see how it runs before I would pull the head out. I will try to make an appointment again to a sea doo dealer that I canceled it today as I thought there's no more point.

Very interesting noise again:
http://youtu.be/eQVPSj449_8


Picture of the bent socket: Can't really see in these bad pics but its bent big time..I`ll take some better ones.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...E/xjoq97f1bxc/s640/Toronto-20120710-00044.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...8/GxujICJnr0Y/s640/Toronto-20120710-00045.jpg

 

[Michael211_2000]

I agree, go ahead and let a SeaDoo dealership mechanic take a look at it and see what they think.... you'll have to pay them some for their diagnostic but at least you'll know what's really going on with this machine's engine. I'm afraid to turn you loose on it with any more tools after this minor fiasco my friend! LOL!

Find out what the dealer thinks is wrong, but before you ok them to make the repairs (unless it's very reasonably priced) do come back here and post what they think the problem is 1st, ok? I work on computers all day almost every day unless I've gone to the lake, I usually get your new postings to this thread within 20 minutes or so.

- Michael

 

[joaquin12345]

well guess the hammering did something?? LOL. Its moving more then before but who knows the real damage. Anyways just watched the video and I hear that noise. Why not unplug one of the relays one by one. If it doesnt stop the noise then attach that relay back and move on to the next one. I wouldnt try to start the ski any more tho esp when your taking off relays but with the key in position see if you can narrow down which relay is giving you that problem. Never know might fix the problem. Sometimes wiggling some wires seems to do the trick. Anyways good luck.

 

[georgep]

Hey Mike,

Some memeber of the other forum mentioned about ISC valve making that shooting noise what do u think should that be the cause of the engine not starting ?

 

[Michael211_2000]

George when I watched and listened to your vidoes I couldn't hear this shooting noise thingy (though I could hear all the clicking going on, and your attempt to engage the starter followed immediately by the sound of the fuel pump kicking in to repressurize the fuel suppy)... so I really don't know. I'm not convinced the enigne is capable of turning over fully however, I think you may have turned it backwards from the supercharger backing it off from whatever is keeping the starter from turning it over.

Just go ahead and take it to the dealership and let them have a look at it, without being able to check this out in person it's very difficult to tell alot about it.

Also what other forum are you posting on? I'd like to be able to follow the entire conversation so as not to be "talking" at cross purposes.

- Michael

 

[georgep]

I guess the supercharger failed the dealer said the bearings etc. They did not take the charger out but they run some test lol.. Now they are charging me 400$ to take the engine out and let me know what the damage is. I said Ok go ahead.... it could be about 3500$.

I got no time to fix it myself rigtht now and I rather pay and fix it and get it on water next time I`ll be more carefull with charger etc ..

 

[Michael211_2000]

I guess the supercharger failed the dealer said the bearings etc.

Ooh! Nuts! The slip washers must be intact or else you wouldn't have been able to back the engine off by turning the SC, but the needle bearings must have failed and come out of it going down into the engine... if 1 single needle bearing got between 2 gears or in the timing chain, then that's enough to lock the engine and shut it down and make it impossible to crank over again. Makes some sense then, what they're saying.

Now, did they have any opinion what all that clicking and noise is about when you simply have the lanyard on the DESS post???? Mine doesn't make those sounds just sitting there with the lanyard on the post (though it does chirp every few seconds to remind me it's ready to start). So what is that all about I'd be curious to know!

Thanks for the update!

- Michael

 

[georgep]

no they did not say anything about that yet...I am waiting until next week for a estimate to fix and see what they say about that noise.. I just cant wait to get it back on water on hopefully it still makes 70mpg an hour.... if not ill sell it lol

from now on ill make sure the charger wont get more than 80 hours on it just to be sure.

 

[georgep]

Hey guys,
The mechanic this is what they quoted me. I am also worried about any damages to the piston, he said he will saw some scratches with the camera etc..but I would want him to take the head off and check them out it`s a lot safer even it might cost me a some extra. What do you think .. what else should they do and change ... like pistion, pistoon rings ..check valves what else ? If the SP bearing broke did it get into the pistion etc ... how is he going to remove that .. I saw the SP and it was full of dirt on that pipe that goes up from the SP.

Here is the bill.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GsT2h_e6aEw/UAf70E01HvI/AAAAAAAAAEU/lNWheOx4R-M/s578/invoice.JPG

 

[Michael211_2000]

Ok what is an SP?

Looks like he's charging you for an entirely new Supercharger ($950 Yikes!). Why isn't he rebuilding the existing supercharger? I was told by Red2Blue I think that an X Charger only runs like $650 new! $950 seems damned high to me.

An oil pump cover? What's wrong with your existing oil pump cover? Ditto for the oil pump housing? I see a new oil pump assembly, I presume some metal parts got in it and damaged one of the 2 oil pumps? The housing and cover why do they need replacing though I cannot understand this...

A new pump shaft.... surely they're not talking about the jetpump drive shaft are they? What the heck is wrong with the driveshaft?

Another oil pump cover... I presume for the secondary oil pump? But why what's wrong with the existing oil pump covers did they take damage?

Timing drive cover? Again, why do you need a new one? What's damaged about the existing one? That thing is expensive and I don't understand how it took damage.

Valve seat sleeve... that's in the head, there's no way a failed supercharger did damage to the engine head valves. I do not understand why they're putting a new valve seat sleeve in and why only 1 valve seat and a valve piston (I assume that's the valve itself?).

I don't see any gears or bearings listed anywhere, so what locked up the engine exactly? I'm suspicious of this work order the parts don't make alot of sense to me but of course I cannot see the parts myself YOU however need to go see every one of these parts and ask them to show you why the part needs replacing and how it got damaged by the supercharger failure just to be sure. If they're doing work on a valve in the head then they'll be having to pulll the head off yet I see no mention of a new head gasket in that parts list and the head gasket is a non-reusable part and expensive so why isn't that listed? Also once the head is pulled off to put a new valve seat sleeve in the head stretch bolts must be replaced they are also non-reusable items and expensive yet don't see them listed in the parts breakdown either so....

I have some issues with that estimate, it doesn't quite make sense to me. You need to go to the shop and get them to show you every part they intend to replace and have them show you WHY it needs replacing, and ask about the head gasket and head stretch bolts and why does it need a new valve seat sleeve which I know is in the head!!! The head should not have suffered any damage from the failed supercharger, I'd love to hear that explanation!

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

I guess the supercharger failed the dealer said the bearings etc. They did not take the charger out but they run some test lol..

Ok I had to go back and read the earlier posts but you said it has 252 hours on it and it appeared that the supercharger has probably never been removed before (OEM style hose clamps still on it) so if the supercharger really has some 252 hours on it then it was WELL past it's expiration date they are supposed to be fully rebuilt every 100 hrs of operation for just this reason.

Let this be a warning to ALL who do not know if their supercharger has ever been rebuilt or who thinks they can just ignore rebuilding it till next season and keep on riding the machine! The supercharger spins VERY fast inside some 40 thousand rpm's and if it fails it blows parts inside of your engine... very very bad mojo! Keep up with your maintenance or be prepared to pay the price. Ouchie!

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

If the piston's are scratched (from your trying to drive them downward.... HELLO!) that shouldn't hurt a thing leave them alone. Don't fix what's not actually broken and not a wear item, scratches on the piston are merely cosmetic and you will never see them. If cylinder compression is good then leave the rings alone too, they don't need replacing. To replace the valve seat he'll have to pull the head off so he will get a good long look at the top of the pistons go back over there and see them for yourself if you're in doubt.

It's possible with 252 hours on it there may well be a worn valve seat that needs replacing in the head and it had nothing to do with the supercharger failing. Ask though. And ask why there's no head gasket or head stretch bolts in that parts breakdown cause those aren't reusable items you have to go back with new ones if the mechanic is planning to reuse them I'd be pulling that watercraft out of there and taking it somewhere else in a heartbeat!!! The stretch bolts will break if they're restretched again, this is why they must be discarded... a reused head gasket doesn't seal again it will start to leak very quickly you must discard it also.

Do not feel like you're being too demanding about the parts they want to replace they should be able to honestly and clearly show you the parts and show you why they're damaged and need replacing... any mechanic that doesn't want to show and expain why they're replacing parts isn't a trustworthy mechanic!

- Michael

 

[georgep]

thanks Mike. I will go again so he can explain me why so many parts and what got damage and what did not get damange. He did not include the head gasket in this quote cuz I just told him to take the head off and then re'estimate based on the findings. He said he`ll do a oil leak test today or something I am still waiting for his estimate. The charger was done 2 years ago by previous owener using a X charger 255 instead of 215 with the 42 injectores thats why my sea doo was so fast getting 70miles

I`ll keep u updated.

 

[Michael211_2000]

Ahhhhh! IC! So now I wonder just how many hours were on the X-charger.... I was told they can go longer than the OEM supercharger.

Cool beans I look forward to hearing what else you find out. Hey ask them why the engine was locked up I know they said the supercharger failed but what was preventing the engine from turning over when you tried to turn it by hand?

- Michael