HELP 2005 sporster Le Di 951

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"don't ever hook a battery booster pack to this thing to jump start it. You will fry the MPEM. "

So true, according to what everyone says. Wonder why that is and how it causes damage..... I can only guess the voltage is too high, like a battery charger might also cause similar damage.

 

[crowhater]

Ok here is an update. After breaking down at the river on my airboat I came home and told my friend "just watch I bet the Seadoo will start right up now" and sure enough it fired right up. It will not turn over with the red push button but it will start right up if you hold the red button and jump the starter relay. You can shut it off with the red button also.

I started it up and then scrambled like a liyyle kid for the garden hose but I let it run until I heard the buzzer and then turned on the water. With the hose running I let it run a good 5min and it ran smooth as glass, I could give it gas and it would rev right up. When you rev it up to high it will make a growl sound in the back of the boat engine compartment area, I have no idea if that is normal or not.

How long should I let it run to make sure all the water is cleaned out of the engine?

I tested the " white with red stripe" wire to the starter solenoid switch and it does not get any power when you push the red starter button. From what I can tell so far this is the only thing that is not working. I will trace the wire tomorrow and see if it has any issues. The red push button must be working or it would not shut the engine off.


As for the airboat I got about 1 mile from the ramp and the oil pressure dropped to ZERO. This is a very expensive 496 big block Chevy that is built to the ceiling so my heart just about stopped. I caught it the second the pressure dropped so I am pretty sure nothing was hurt. We spun it over at the ramp later few just a second and the idle was 500-700rpm high so either the pick up tube fell off the oil pump or an oil passage plug blew out. Turning it over by hand the engine is smooth as glass, no mechanical issue feel to it at all. It might have sheared the pin it the distributer shaft. Anyway I will tear into that tomorrow.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Take the seadoo to the water and run it around for 20 minutes or so, WOT a few times should get the remaining water out.

Sounds like the solenoid driver in the MPEM isn't working, those MPEM's are epoxy encapsulated.

The chevy oil pump isn't turning, me thinks. Roll pin on distributor drive gear? Billet roller cam uses bronze or phenolic gear?

 

[crowhater]

Bronze gear, and I think it is that or the pick up tube. I will drop the pan and take a look there first because I need to remove the pan anyway to fix a crack I have had in it for a while. I also want to remove a rod cap to take a look at the bearings to make sure nothing was hurt.

If the computer starter driver has an issue it will get introduced to good old fashion COUNTRY FIXING real quick. I will wire up a relay and push button switch to the solenoid and smile from ear to ear about saving 1000 dollars with a 20 dollar fix. ;-)

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"I will wire up a relay" Might work fine, I'd put a diode across the magnetic coil it so it doesn't create an 80 volt spike when the current is shut off. Also hang an AC voltmeter on the battery and measure less than 1 volt AC else there's a leaky diode in the MPEM's built in stator diodes (Yes, the charging system diodes/shunt regulator are in the MPEM).

Disassemble that chevy oil pump and braze the pickup tube to it while the pan is off.

Have a great 4th!

 

[crowhater]

If that pick up tube was not welded I will not be happy. I paid West Side a good deal of money to assemble that long block and put the skins on. Basic engine building 101 teaches weld the pick tube on the oil pump and install threaded oil passage plugs on any performance motor.

A diode? Are you kidding? I know engines but electronics is not my strong side. I figured a 30a relay with a 5a push button would do the trick. Good lord it is a Seadoo jet boat not a Corvette what is with all this high tech Engenering? Does anyone have a link to " how to bypass the the starter button for dummies "?

 

[Dr Honda]

First...



ACK !!!!!!! DO NOT REV A SEADOO HARD OUT OF THE WATER !!!! AND... DO NOT run it for more than a min or so, even on the hose. The driveshaft seal is cooled, and stabilized by the lake water. The growling you heard was probably that seal begging for mercy. It very well, could be destroyed now.


Second:


Did you ever check the output on going to the solenoid? also... The solenoid itself doesn't last forever. Before you wire up a jumper... try replacing it.

The diode is a good thought... but most solenoids are internally protected these days.


Lastly...

On the Chevy... it's not common practice to weld in the pickup tube. The reason is... so the pickup can be adjusted to the depth of the pan. So... unless you asked... I don't think they would have done it. Also... a lot of the pump bodies are Iron, and the tube is steel. You really can't weld on Iron. I know Melling uses a cast steel body, and it can be welded. Although... thinking about that... if the shop tried to weld an iron body pump... it could have cracked away.


Also, the gear drives the distributor... so if the gear sheared... he would have lost ignition too... and never known that the pressure dropped.


The common "Oil Loss" issues with Chevy are...

1) A galley plug coming out.

The OEM plugs are tapped in "Freeze Plug" style. Most performance builders will tap the ends, and put in a threaded plug. If you lost a plug behind the timing set... the oil spewing out, would simply go back down into the pan. If you last a rear plug, you would see oil everywhere.

2) The pressure relief on the pump came apart, or is stuck open.

3) if you are running a bypass oil filter... the valve coudl be stuck.


Regardless... sorry to hear about the issue.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Good point on the gear Doc, duh, the distributor timing wouldn't be set quite right anymore, would it?

Melling also makes an oil pickup that has a strap which goes under one of the pump bolts. I don't recall ever seeing oil galley plugs on a chevy which are driven in, always threaded NPT?

The expression for voltage across a coil is v= L(dI/dt), L is the inductance, dI is the change in current, dt is the change in time. This is the phenomenon which gives you that 50,000 volts on your ignition coil, which has an L(dI/dt) designed for the purpose. What if t = 0, theoretical result v = infinity In real life, t isn't zero, but it's small L isn't 1 but it's greater than 0, i isn't huge, it's probably less than amp. No diode, expect and 80v spike when the coil field collapses, I don't want that near my MPEM, thus I'd use a diode to dampen the spike just like GM and every other manufacturer does, not all off the shelf relays have the diode, it's an automotive OEM thing.

These little computers are voltage sensitive and somewhat fragile, if I were wiring up any kind of inductive coil in my boat or vehicle with a computer controlled anything, I would put a diode across the coil terminals in reverse direction to current flow, so as to dampen the voltage spike. True, look under your hood close enough and you'll notice that diode across the freon compressor clutch coil, and other diodes across many other inductive devices for this very reason, to dampen the voltage spike that occurs when the current shuts off.



Hardin Marine says braze the pickup tube, I bet Miloden does too:
http://www.hardin-marine.com/Instructions/620-910610-Oil-Pump-Pickups.pdf

 

[crowhater]

I have a question on that solenoid! Ok instead of jumping across it because the ( white wire with red stripe ) is not sending a signal from the MPEM what is I just run a power wire to that post on the solenoid and use my own 12v switch to send the signal? Then I can leave the white / red stripe with unhooked.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"just run a power wire to that post on the solenoid and use my own 12v switch"

Not condoning it but sometimes necessity is the mother of invention and you do what you have to. My largest concern already stated with this is the location of the damping diode, not sure if it's built into the MPEM or solenoid but there's one there somewhere. Why not next time you drive by radioshack stop in and buy a pack of 6 for $2 and throw them in your tool box, hanging a 2A 1000 PIV diode in parallel with the solenoid coil terminals can do no harm, certainly COULD keep from damaging something. Fuse the power source and you're at least safe from Murphy's law?

Kinda beats spending several hundred or more on a used MPEM that might be bad or mismatched just to discover something else major wrong like a scored piston. And, good luck obtaining that MPEM before July 4th.

MPEM's are out there, they aren't usually free and it normally takes some digging to find the correct one. I'd be considering it, might even get lucky and find one for $10 at the flea market or something, even a blind squirrel gets a nut once on awhile. Sometimes it doesn't pay to go cheap, who knows the final outcome? Meanwhile life goes on, doesn't it?

Doc's right about running out of water, what's up with no cooling water till the head overheat alarm sounds, WTF? REVing out of water no load well maybe not a good idea, eh? Yeah, the impeller is liable to vibrate just a little, heat in carbon drive shaft seal has nowhere to go.... Come on, man!

 

[crowhater]

"just run a power wire to that post on the solenoid and use my own 12v switch"

Not condoning it but sometimes necessity is the mother of invention and you do what you have to. My largest concern already stated with this is the location of the damping diode, not sure if it's built into the MPEM or solenoid but there's one there somewhere. Why not next time you drive by radioshack stop in and buy a pack of 6 for $2 and throw them in your tool box, hanging a 2A 1000 PIV diode in parallel with the solenoid coil terminals can do no harm, certainly COULD keep from damaging something. Fuse the power source and you're at least safe from Murphy's law?

Kinda beats spending several hundred or more on a used MPEM that might be bad or mismatched just to discover something else major wrong like a scored piston. And, good luck obtaining that MPEM before July 4th.

MPEM's are out there, they aren't usually free and it normally takes some digging to find the correct one. I'd be considering it, might even get lucky and find one for $10 at the flea market or something, even a blind squirrel gets a nut once on awhile. Sometimes it doesn't pay to go cheap, who knows the final outcome? Meanwhile life goes on, doesn't it?

Doc's right about running out of water, what's up with no cooling water till the head overheat alarm sounds, WTF? REVing out of water no load well maybe not a good idea, eh? Yeah, the impeller is liable to vibrate just a little, heat in carbon drive shaft seal has nowhere to go.... Come on, man!

Please excuse my ignorance but I know nothing about Seadoo boats. It did not come with any type of manual or instructions. I was under the impression that you start the boat and turn on the water hose like any other inboard outboard boat. So the water from the hose does not cool the engine? What does the water from the hose do?

Any information about the boat would be a big help as I am learning on the fly and searching the internet for information everyday.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"It did not come with any type of manual"

Dude, I thought I gave you a good link, download and read, save me from typing! (just kidding, although you'll learn everything you need to know from those manuals much faster than the back and forth with me and Doc.)

So the water from the hose does not cool the engine? What does the water from the hose do?

The water from the hose backs up into the cylinders and gets your feet wet, that's all(just kidding, again). I thought you said you waited till the head overheat sensor gave an alarm before turning on the water? Sounds like you went from one extreme to another, I suggested long ago to turn the water on within 30 seconds after starting the engine and turn it off 30 seconds before shutting the engine down. This will dry out the exhaust so the water won't flow backward into the cylinders.

There is a carbon driveshaft seal on your dirveshaft which seals around the shaft and keeps lake water from running into the boat and air from being cavitated into the impeller. If the seal or bellows is heat damaged then you'll have a water leak and eventually sink, or your impeller will cavitate by sucking air down through the driveshaft tube. This carbon seal will overheat if the boat is run out of the water for more than a few minutes, it's all explained in the manuals (have you downloaded these yet?) more so if the engine RPM is tacking to the moon.

I can't recall if I suggested downloading the manuals, might want to do that before going further. You'd already have the manual if I'd sold you the boat but that didn't happen so the next best thing I can do and have already done is give you the link. Now go get
em, cowboy!

 

[crowhater]

"It did not come with any type of manual"

Dude, I thought I gave you a good link, download and read, save me from typing! (just kidding, although you'll learn everything you need to know from those manuals much faster than the back and forth with me and Doc.)

So the water from the hose does not cool the engine? What does the water from the hose do?

The water from the hose backs up into the cylinders and gets your feet wet, that's all(just kidding, again). I thought you said you waited till the head overheat sensor gave an alarm before turning on the water? Sounds like you went from one extreme to another, I suggested long ago to turn the water on within 30 seconds after starting the engine and turn it off 30 seconds before shutting the engine down. This will dry out the exhaust so the water won't flow backward into the cylinders.

There is a carbon driveshaft seal on your dirveshaft which seals around the shaft and keeps lake water from running into the boat and air from being cavitated into the impeller. If the seal or bellows is heat damaged then you'll have a water leak and eventually sink, or your impeller will cavitate by sucking air down through the driveshaft tube. This carbon seal will overheat if the boat is run out of the water for more than a few minutes, it's all explained in the manuals (have you downloaded these yet?) more so if the engine RPM is tacking to the moon.

I can't recall if I suggested downloading the manuals, might want to do that before going further. You'd already have the manual if I'd sold you the boat but that didn't happen so the next best thing I can do and have already done is give you the link. Now go get
em, cowboy!

I tried the link you posted and it did not work, I also looked all over the net but was unable to find the correct manual.

At the most I had the water running within 1 min of the engine running and it ran 3-5 mins total.

As for reving I never went past half power. I had read issues were these engine would die when you came off idle so I just wanted to see if the engine would respond so I gave it some gas. If I damaged anything because of my ignorance I will replace it. Unfortunately my check book has had to pay for stupid things I have done more than once.

So there is no way to run these boats out of the water to trouble shoot them? I did not want to put it in the water until I knew it was running right because I have no desire get stranded.

I do know that the wear ring, impeller stuff was all replaced last year.



Another question!! There is a little stainless Steel plate on the back of the boat above the jet drive, above the dive platform on the back of the boat. I noticed a little water was squirting out of this also, is that normal?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"I tried the link you posted and it did not work"

Well, thanks for finally telling me!

Anyway, I reposted the web address in post #15 or, you can pay your $10 or whatever it is and get manuals from the guys who are gracious enough to host this chat site we're using or you can download it from the web site I gave you in post #15 a few days ago, for free.

So let me know what it is about the address I provided in post #15, that you don't understand and I'll figure out another way.

1 minute of running without water probably did no harm, try to get it closer to 30seconds if possible. Alarms aren't a sign you're doing everything right.

You can run the engine with cooling water for as long as you like, if you can come up with a way to avoid overheating the carbon seal. Maybe you can take a second hose and spray it occasionally. Sounds like you still don't know where it is and I'm not gonna tell ya if you won't even look for it.

Anyway, I usually don't need more than 30 seconds to know if the thing will actually run, so if it does I just drop it in the water and test it there. A jet boat isn't quite the same thing as a stern drive or outboard, there are minor and major differences. What other engine do you know of that makes 130hp out of less than 1000cc's? These things aren't Briggs and Stratton lawn mowers, they're much more finiky, they're closer to the edge in about every aspect. Treat them carefully, read the manual thoroughly and think about what your doing, otherwise they'll bite the dust, quick.

Two stroke engines deserve a special kind of respect, that's all there is to it, and marine 2-stroke's aren't any less complicated.

I see things like someone goes to the junk yard and gets an old small block to stick into their Mercruiser b/c they forgot to drain the water out and the block cracked. Well, they plop that car motor in there and it lasts about 30 minutes because 20 years of crud trapped in the valve covers heads right for the oil pump and rear bearing. That car probably rarely ever saw 5k RPM and they just take it out on the lake and wind it up to 6k RPM with a heavy load on it for a good hour, all that sandy gritty goo loosens up and heads straight for the oil pan.

So there are a few things about marine engines that require special diligence, it looks like an engine and it is, but you can easily make an expensive time consuming mistake just by something silly like connecting a jump start from another vehicle. Don't believe me and I'm sure you'll be wishing you had. So read your manuals, man!

 

[crowhater]

"I tried the link you posted and it did not work"

Well, thanks for finally telling me!

Anyway, I reposted the web address in post #15 or, you can pay your $10 or whatever it is and get manuals from the guys who are gracious enough to host this chat site we're using or you can download it from the web site I gave you in post #15 a few days ago, for free.

So let me know what it is about the address I provided in post #15, that you don't understand and I'll figure out another way.

1 minute of running without water probably did no harm, try to get it closer to 30seconds if possible. Alarms aren't a sign you're doing everything right.

You can run the engine with cooling water for as long as you like, if you can come up with a way to avoid overheating the carbon seal. Maybe you can take a second hose and spray it occasionally. Sounds like you still don't know where it is and I'm not gonna tell ya if you won't even look for it.

Anyway, I usually don't need more than 30 seconds to know if the thing will actually run, so if it does I just drop it in the water and test it there. A jet boat isn't quite the same thing as a stern drive or outboard, there are minor and major differences. What other engine do you know of that makes 130hp out of less than 1000cc's? These things aren't Briggs and Stratton lawn mowers, they're much more finiky, they're closer to the edge in about every aspect. Treat them carefully, read the manual thoroughly and think about what your doing, otherwise they'll bite the dust, quick.

Two stroke engines deserve a special kind of respect, that's all there is to it, and marine 2-stroke's aren't any less complicated.

I see things like someone goes to the junk yard and gets an old small block to stick into their Mercruiser b/c they forgot to drain the water out and the block cracked. Well, they plop that car motor in there and it lasts about 30 minutes because 20 years of crud trapped in the valve covers heads right for the oil pump and rear bearing. That car probably rarely ever saw 5k RPM and they just take it out on the lake and wind it up to 6k RPM with a heavy load on it for a good hour, all that sandy gritty goo loosens up and heads straight for the oil pan.

So there are a few things about marine engines that require special diligence, it looks like an engine and it is, but you can easily make an expensive time consuming mistake just by something silly like connecting a jump start from another vehicle. Don't believe me and I'm sure you'll be wishing you had. So read your manuals, man!

I have no problem reading the manual for free or $10.

As for marine engines the 496 on my airboat cost 16k and I treat her like a new born child. I am new to the Seadoo and the learning curve is steep. I don't mind spending money but I hate wasting money. before I hand my wallet off to a dealership I want to know what I am working with. Why spend a bunch of money on an engine that you are not sure is good when you can buy a replacement for 1000.00. You guys have helped me a great deal and saved me a was of cash because I have been able to narrow down issues that need to be addressed. Now when I do take it to the dealership I will be able to tell them what needs attention instead of them telling me it needed everything under the hood.

If I seem jaded it is because I have paid the corvette tax and the boat tax many times. It pays to look it over yourself first.


As for the airboat they ran a bore scope in it today and the top of the oil pump broke. I told them to replace the pump, lifters, inspect the bearings, flush the oil passages, change the oil, and add an external cooler.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"the top of the oil pump broke"

Yep, that'd do it I guess! Have to admit, that one I've never seen. Makes me wonder if they might've damaged it in the vice holding it while installing the pickup. Could be a cheap Chinese casting as well, doubt they'd take a chance like that though.

Anyway, let me know if you can't find those manuals, you'll need them.

 

[crowhater]

The engine has an extended pick up tube because of the Hamburg oil pan. The mount that supports it to the main cap broke and let the pick up tube dangle. The tube was welded but the weld also fractured. When hauling the boat on the trailer the bouncing must have been to much strain in the pick up tube support. I purchased the oil pan used and when we removed the pan we found a circle clip and we are not 100% sure if it is from my engine or was lodged under the tray. Now it looks like a total tear down to find out the truth. If a piston wrist pin has lost a circle clip it could take out the whole engine. So off with the engine cage and the top end so we can pull the pistons.

Decimation of boat: bust out another thousand.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

So you did lose oil pressure due to the pickup falling off the pump.

Seems like if a wrist pin retaining clip popped lose, there would be plenty of damage to the clip and a nice score in the offending cylinder. Not sure how the clip could escape it's pocket without experiencing extensive damage to the clip, since the wrist pin is always in the cylinder. If one did pop lose, I'd be surprised to find it laying in the pan, as opposed to smeared all over up and down the cylinder wall.

Sounds like a lose part that was inadvertently left in the pan.