HELP 2005 sporster Le Di 951

[crowhater]

I just picked up a 2005 sporster Le Di that ran fine last year but it broke down this year the first time out. Not knowing anything about these machines I have been stumbling over my own feet. I charged up the battery, hooked up the garden hose and went to start it a couple days ago. I did not know that you must have the engine running before turning the water on so I filled the engine with water like an idiot. After pulling the plugs and turning it over I got all the water out of the cylinders, but I don't know how to check to see if water got in the crank case.

I then started inspecting everything and discovered a couple blown fuses and I think I found what caused it to break down in the first place. The plastic box the coils and starter solenoid sit in did not have the cover on it and it had water in it. After cleaning connections on everything I got everything on the boat to work except for the starter solenoid. When I push the red button the fan comes on and the fuel pump. While someone holds he red bottom down I can jump across the starter solenoid and the boat will spin over and try to fire up every once in a while but it has not started yet. I am thinking about buying a can of starter fluid spray and trying that.

I do not know the first thing about Seadoo's or rotax engines but I do know engines and I know how to work on them. I just finished building a new LS3 427 stroker not a month ago. Can you guys please give me some advise as to what I should be doing to trouble shoot this thing. The last owner had it at the dealership and the tech said it needed a $1000.00 epmd, but from what I am seeing the computer is working fine because I have fire and fuel. The black safety cap is wore out and I have to jiggle it around from time to time because it loses connection. I also checked the switch on the shifter and it seems to be working fine.

Other than not running the only thing that is not working correct is the starter does not turn over when I push the red button, I have to jump the solenoid. It has fuel and it has Seadoo synthetic oil.

 

[Dr Honda]

Are you getting fuel?? Can you get it to crank with the start stop button?

The MPEM may be burnt out. They are built with internal sections... and it's common for one part be bad, while the rest will function.


Don't use starter fluid, since you got water in the engine. Mix a little fuel and oil, (40:1) and pour a little in each spark plug hole. Regardless if it will stay running... you need to get some fire in that engine to make sure all the water is out. if it sits wet for too long... it will rust, and be useless.


Di engines are not easy to deal with. There are a bunch of systems that work together, and with out "Dealer" equipment, they can be very hard to make run.


Once you get a little fire in the engine. you need to check:

1) fuel pressure

2) Air pressure

3) compression.

 

[crowhater]

When I turn it over with the plugs out both spark plugs get good fire and I can smell fuel getting pushed out of the cylinders do I know the injectors must be squirting fuel. The boat will try to fire off very once in a while. I think the battery is bad because I had it on a charger all night and it shows full but it goes weak real quick. I also tried to put my battery tender on it for a slow deep charge all night and it never switched to maintance. No big deal I just pulled one of my red top Optima batteries out of my airboat and once it is 100% charged I will install it. The Seadoo has yet to turn over with the red starter button, I have to jump across the starter solenoid while someone holds down the red button.

The MPEM had two blown fuses, the first 15 amp and the third fuse a 7.5 amp. Everything else works fine, other than not turning over with the red button and the safety lanyard being a little wore out. If you wiggle it around you will get it to work. If it is lose I get the loud beeps, but when it is connected the fans or motors are running when you push the red button.

As for pour mix fuel in the cylinders, what ratio should it be mixed?

Did I get water in the crank case when I filled the cylinders with water? I did not know it must be running before you turn on the water hose. I spun the engine over to clear the water and I sprayed some Corrosion X into the cylinders to keep the rings lubed. I have also removed the air box off the air intakes, I was planning to hit it with some starter spray to get it to fire up. Nothing big just a few small burst to get her to fire up.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Never use starting fluid, two-stroke oil properly mixed with gasoline in a squirt bottle will provide lubrication, it's vital for the moving parts. Starting fluid has no lubricating properties, and it's too harsh for any engine but maybe use for four-stroke engines only even then I just use pre-mix in a squirt bottle, it works well. Gasoline presents a fire hazard, so be very careful and keep a fire extinguisher nearby though, wipe up any spills, properly dispose of waste, beware of backfires and excessive amounts of mixture, etc...

Need to get that engine running ASAP to blow out the water(out on lake is best, 1/2 hour of running will blow most all of the water out, water trapped inside will cause rust damage, at least try to oil it well with fogging fluid or oil in a squirt bottle if you can't get it running.

Might be a good idea to get some experienced local help, it's easy to destroy these engines. A few seconds of running without cooling water is okay, I don't run mine for more than 30 seconds without cooling water and I don't rev it up on purpose. Look for hydrolocking, too much fluid of anykind can cause hydrolocking, remove spark plugs and ground wires on coil box to avoid ignition hazard and potential damage to ignition coils.

Water is the enemy on any boat, but it's necessary to maintain cooling. While running on hose, just a little water seeping from tell-tale is enough, adjust water pressure as necessary. First start engine then turn on water else exhaust floods with water and backs up into cylinders through/from exhaust system. Running engine blows the water out of exhaust while water keeps everything cool, turn off water before shutting down engine so engine can blow remaining water out of exhaust. Water causes rust when it's in the wrong place, like inside the engine.

Good luck and be safe!

 

[Dr Honda]

Yes... you got water down in the crank case. BUT... remember... these are 2 strokes, so... it's a moot point. Start it... and the water will come out.

The problem with starter fluid is... there is no oil in it. And... since you know that water got into the engine... you need oil so it doesn't eat itself. If you had a good running engine... and it was fuel flooded... a little starter fluid is OK.

Get that good battery in there... and see what happens. The di engine is sensitive to voltage. If you have a weak battery, it's not going to start.

 

[crowhater]

I know my Optima red tops are good batteries because they start my 700hp big block on just one of them with ease. So when I put one of these in the Seadoo it should start with the push button? The battery in the Seadoo right now has an issue I am almost positive about that.

I have not checked the connections on the starter for corrosion yet because I can't see the freaking starter but from what I have seen on everything else I am sure it also has corrosion.

How much oil should I put in say a cup full of gas to be safe, when pouring gas into the cylinders. I am using the Seadoo synthetic oil also. This boat is in great condition at first glance, it looks like a new boat, it has been kept in the garage under a cover. The maintance on it has been poor and that is what has caused these issues.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

32:1 is 1oz of oil to one quart of gasoline, or 4oz of oil to one gallon. Easy to remember, that's what I mix for my squirt bottle and every other two-stroke I use around the place like chainsaws and weed eaters, they all get 32:1 synthetic seadoo oil.

Some prefer to run 40:1, okay fine!

 

[Dr Honda]

32:1 is 1oz of oil to one quart of gasoline, or 4oz of oil to one gallon. Easy to remember, that's what I mix for my squirt bottle and every other two-stroke I use around the place like chainsaws and weed eaters, they all get 32:1 synthetic seadoo oil.

Some prefer to run 40:1, okay fine!

40:1 is right out of the Seadoo manual. BUT... for a squirt/start bottle... who cares. Personally... I'd probably make it rich and not even measure.

If you like more oil... then that's fine. BUT... 40:1 works, and saves $$$. Remember... some of these oil injection systems will go as lean as 120:1 at idle. (most are around 75:1 at idle to cut smoke)

 

[crowhater]

Ok here is where I am at. The new battery spins it with ease but the push button does not spin the starter, I still have to jump the solenoid.

The engine will fire for a few revolutions and die. I jump it again and it will fire for a few revolutions and die, again and again. When I pull the plugs the back plug is covered with oily water. I clean it, spin the engine to clear the cylinders, add some gas, and spin her over.

It does not matter if I add gas or not it will try to start almost every time but won't keep going. I think the back cylinder keeps getting water in it from the exhaust or the case. How do I drain this water out so it will quit corrupting the cylinder?

It is also starting to do something new every time after I stop cranking it. It makes two " squish, squish " sounds from what I think is those round plunger things above the spark plugs. I think they are the exhaust valves.

When we first begins to start the engine and hold the red button down you can hear something running, if it tries to hit and I stop cranking that sound is gone and you have to lift off the red button and push down on it again to get that sound back.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"the push button does not spin the starter"

Does your beeper work at all, ever, no beeps? A good DESS anti-theft will sound two short confirmation beeps when you place the DESS lanyard cap on the DESS post. Else, the MPEM doesn't recognize the lanyard DESS as valid, or possibly the post isn't working correctly.

"How do I drain this water out so it will quit corrupting the cylinder?"

Sounds like there's some water in the rear (PTO cylinder) of the crankcase (oily water mixture, I call "milkshake"). The only way I know of to get it all out is by running engine, there are no drains. Hard to resolve if engine wouldn't run as the first problem.

Side note: Not of immediate concern but while you're at it, I'd check/refill/replace the oil in the balance shaft reservoir, instructions are in the service manual. Suck it out, I use hand vacuum pump like for bleeding automotive brakes through a thin tube down into bottom of reservoir, then I refill using jet pump oil, not sure if that's also official recommendation for DI motor but should work fine, follow DI service procedure.

"two " squish, squish " sounds from what I think is those round plunger things above the spark plugs."

Sounds like your fuel injectors firing, squirting fuel into cylinders.

"When we first begins to start the engine and hold the red button down you can hear something running"

I bet that's the electric fuel pump, it's in the fuel tank.

Summary: Sounds like you've got a little fire in the engine, but you mentioned earlier the coil electric box was full of water. Maybe still wet? Can you blow it out and dry it up with some compressed air? Not sure if you're intimately familiar with fuel injection operational theory, troubleshooting can be too complex for many inexperienced owners. Wet ignition systems often won't fire till they're made dry or even replaced if water is infiltrated and cannot be removed.... From here, I'd suggest following Dr. Honda's suggestions from post #2 above:

"Di engines are not easy to deal with. There are a bunch of systems that work together, and with out "Dealer" equipment, they can be very hard to make run.


Once you get a little fire in the engine. you need to check:

1) fuel pressure

2) Air pressure

3) compression. "

 

[crowhater]

The lanyard does beep twice when you put it on.

If the push button does not spin the starter what does?

I dried out everything and I coated all of the electrical connection with dielectric grease.

I have also sprayed compressed air down the cylinders to assist in blowing out any moisture and at night I take the plugs out and spray some corrosion-X

I did not get any type of owner manual with the boat.

As for dealerships I am kind of skidish of them because everytime I take a boat in or my car it always seems like I end up paying a great deal of money for them to play part changing. I am not scared to turn my own wrenches and have a pretty extensive shop. I just finished building a new LS3 427 stroker engine for my C6 corvette and installed it myself. What software do they use on the Seadoo? I have HPtuner software and do all of my own computer tuning on the car and my Duramax. In short I find it enjoyable to fix my own stuff when possible.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

"The lanyard does beep twice when you put it on."

That's good, exactly what it's supposed to do. Yes, the red button is the start/stop command to the MPEM. Do you hear no beep when pressing this button? No beep is good, beeping means MPEM is not happy. Is red button start/stop switch disconnected? If the shifter forward/reverse interlock switch is made in neutral position, then the MPEM should output the 12v on the yellow wire with red stripe to pull in the starter solenoid.

You need the service manual, so you can follow the self diagnostic procedure, I'll find the link and post it here.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Here is the link to a source of service manuals, I think your boat is the same going back as far as 2001, and I know they have this manual which covers the 951 DI for 2001. Download the service manual and focus on the self-diagnostics for the 951 DI model.

I'm not sure if they have the specific manual for your boat but there are only minor differences in the various years of 951 DI's as far as I know:

http://www.******************/

 

[crowhater]

"The lanyard does beep twice when you put it on."

That's good, exactly what it's supposed to do. Yes, the red button is the start/stop command to the MPEM. Do you hear no beep when pressing this button? No beep is good, beeping means MPEM is not happy. Is red button start/stop switch disconnected? If the shifter forward/reverse interlock switch is made in neutral position, then the MPEM should output the 12v on the yellow wire with red stripe to pull in the starter solenoid.

You need the service manual, so you can follow the self diagnostic procedure, I'll find the link and post it here.

I am sitting in the boat right now and when I put on the lanyard I get two beeps and a fan running sound for a second. Then when I push the start button I get no beeps but while I push the button I get the same fan running sound.

I took the shifter out of the boat and tried to start it with that switch unhooked and then I crossed the wires and tried it again. Is there any other fuses other than the ones on the computer? How do you gain access to the push button start switch and lanyard post?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Not able to post link, trying this, no spaces, dot = .

seadoo
manuals
dot
net

 

[crowhater]

Here is the link to a source of service manuals, I think your boat is the same going back as far as 2001, and I know they have this manual which covers the 951 DI for 2001. Download the service manual and focus on the self-diagnostics for the 951 DI model.

I'm not sure if they have the specific manual for your boat but there are only minor differences in the various years of 951 DI's as far as I know:

http://www.******************/

Thank you for all your help! My kids love this little boat and I would love to get it going for the 4th. I know the impeller, wear ring and all that is new, I just need to get it running so I can get all the water out if the engine. I wish there was a way to suck the milk water out.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I expect your fan running sound is your fuel pump, pressurizing the injector fuel rail. FYI, I don't own a DI model myself, so I'm not intimately familiar with all of the detail of this particular configuration.

 

[Dr Honda]

I am sitting in the boat right now and when I put on the lanyard I get two beeps and a fan running sound for a second. Then when I push the start button I get no beeps but while I push the button I get the same fan running sound.

I took the shifter out of the boat and tried to start it with that switch unhooked and then I crossed the wires and tried it again. Is there any other fuses other than the ones on the computer? How do you gain access to the push button start switch and lanyard post?

Open the hood, and pull up the bucket. That will get you behind the controls in the helm.


We still need a reading on the air, fuel and compression pressures.

Finally... since it's not running with fuel directly in the engine... You may want to pull the intake off, and check the reeds. They are in a cage between the intake manifold and the engine block. If one is cracked... it won't run.

 

[crowhater]

OK I can do a compression test, that is no problem and I can get a fuel pressure reading but what is an air pressure test?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Doc, is it possible to get a rough idea of the reed petal condition just by cranking over the engine with the plugs removed maybe by hand or by starter? Open the throttle completely, place your hand in front of the the throttle body and feel the pulse or maybe measure the vacuum?

 

[crowhater]

Doc, my engine tries to start every time I spin it over but the back plug gets fouled with oil water and I have to clean them because the front cylinder is the only one trying to fire.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

There's a small piston type air pump on the right rear of the engine, driven by the counterweight balance shaft, this is the fuel injection air pump. You actually have four injectors, two for air and two for fuel, correct?

BTW, this air pump is lubricated by the 2-cycle oil pump, theer is a return line back to your oil tank where the excess remaining oil goes.

I'm just speaking from what I see in the service manual, haven't actually worked on one of these. Probably I should shut up.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

If you remove the rear intake manifold to inspect the reed petal, you can gain access to the bottom of the crankcase and vacuum out the water.

Depending on how much water was in there, it's possible the reed(s) may be damaged anyway, due to crankcase hydrolocking as the piston moves downward to pressurize the crankcase.

The reed petal is actually a huge checkvalve in the intake manifold, all the intake air goes through it in one direction and is compressed slightly as the piston moves down and this pressurizes the crankcase area until the piston reaches the position where the cylinder ports are uncovered, the pressurized charge in the crankcase is expelled up into the cylinder.

I guess reeds are still necessary in the case of DI, in order to move combustion air through the engine.

 

[Lightningtruck]

Are you sure the back cylinder is even firing in the first place? If not, can you pop in one of those in-line spark checkers to see? And/or swap in another spark plug to the rear cylinder?

Also - in that rear power box you had full of water, there should be the two coil packs. Find the coil pack that runs to the rear cylinder. Pull the plug wire and look for corrosion. Pull the wire from the harness to that coil pack and look for corrosion. My former boat (a 2004 Sportster LE DI) had corrosion on one of the harness wires to the coil pack. Also - there should be in that power box a 15A inline fuse on a fairly heavy gauge wire. Pull that out and make sure it's not corroded. IIRC, that is one of the main feeds of juice to the MPEM, and like Doc Honda said, the DI boats are very very very very very finicky about voltage.

One other tidbit - If nobody has ever told you, don't ever hook a battery booster pack to this thing to jump start it. You will fry the MPEM.

 

[Lightningtruck]

Any chance you can pull or test the red starter button to rule it out? Since you're getting the two beeps and nothing else, it seems that the MPEM is happy. And since your starter works by jumping the solenoid, plus you have ruled out the neutral safety switch, then it's time to rule out the button itself.