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Brp to exit sport boat market
- Thread starter baumann6
- Start date
coolheiser44
New Member
This is really disappointing news - I can't believe it. However, I still love my Speedster and can't see why people would want to unload them immediately...for what reason? All parts will be available due to the PWC line.
Many boat builders have paused production of their boats in the last few years, I've just recently heard that many larger boat builders are re-starting production and seeing a huge increase in orders.
Hopefully Sea-Doo will bring back the Speedster in the future - I understand the larger ski boats, but the Speedster was their bread and butter of the sport boats and I wouldn't be surprised if it was their best selling too. Until then, looks like i'll be cruising in my '07 Speedster 150 for many years to come.
Many boat builders have paused production of their boats in the last few years, I've just recently heard that many larger boat builders are re-starting production and seeing a huge increase in orders.
Hopefully Sea-Doo will bring back the Speedster in the future - I understand the larger ski boats, but the Speedster was their bread and butter of the sport boats and I wouldn't be surprised if it was their best selling too. Until then, looks like i'll be cruising in my '07 Speedster 150 for many years to come.
BMANN06
Well-Known Member
I agree cool, give it a couple years they'll be back. Then they'll likely be made in mexico or boated across one of the oceans from some farther away place where manufacturing/assembling cost is less than 1/10th than that of Canada or United States of America.
For sure though ... I'm not even considering getting rid of my speedster. By far the best all around boat I've ever had or been on.
For sure though ... I'm not even considering getting rid of my speedster. By far the best all around boat I've ever had or been on.
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
Different parts of the world get different lengths... but with that said... the standard in the USA is one year. BUT... over the last 2 years... it's been bumped to 3 years as an incentive And, as I recall...last winter, they were running a 5 year deal. (with a $3000 rebate)
biffdotorg
Active Member
Yamaha made a big statement by releasing that SX/AR 190 in 2012. For 2013, they are releasing the SX/AR192 with a Supercharged engine. They were dipping their toes back into the entry market and have not done so since killing the exciters and 2000 series. This may make them expand even further into the sub 20' market.
coolheiser44
New Member
I would love to see Yamaha build a 16' 4 seater sport boat that mimicked the Speedster...I just don't think it will look nearly as good as the Speedster with it's angles and muscular lines, every time I look at the boat I see a new angle...it's like it's growing muscles haha
Do you think they really need to bring a 16 foot?, at that price point the sx190 is pretty impressive, though I love my seadoo, I was planning to buy a Yamaha pwc after I purchased my speedster (they have a brand new one right now at Bert's for only $6,999).. 3 seater with all incentives thrown at it, that's pretty cheap..
Now I love my speedster, it's so easy to launch, have a lot of fun in, easy to retrieve, awesome on gas, BUT I WAS PLANNING TO MOVE UP to a bigger boat after having more experience, sad that it would probably be a sx190.. But for 23k? It's hard to beat that, it's very impressive, but I think it's ugly compared to the challenger, I really do think the seadoos are the best looking boat... Honestly, the price/looks versatility of the speedster is what made me get it...
bluespottedhorse
New Member
If companies kept prices down more people would be enticed to buy new. It's like buying a car...no car is worth 30k when it only costs them 5k to build. It's just greed on the companies part. No different than iphones that cost 50 dollars to make and 700 to buy. Simply greed that's catching up to society.
BMANN06
Well-Known Member
Umm I don't think your factoring overhead into your statement ...
bluespottedhorse
New Member
How much it cost an item to build is defined by overhead as you put it. For example, if you google the cost of an iphone you'll bring up thousands of links answering this question. As a former car broker I purchased brand new american cars for 5000k albeit that was more than 10 years ago. However, the cost to build anything hasn't risen all that much because we continually find newer cheaper and more efficient ways to produce products. The consumer is the last step in the food chain and pays the highest mark up for goods. Like it or not that how our system works.
biffdotorg
Active Member
So that only proves that the iphone example was a bad one. iPhones, like Playstations and Xboxs are loss-leaders. Many retailers of those devices are actually losing money with every one they sell. The margin is made in the sale of software and accessories. That coming from a very good friend that was the GM of a Toys'Rus for 15 years. He lost money on each Sony Playstation 2 back in the day.
The iphone is the epitome of a loss leader as it's not only the retailer, but Apple themselves not making money on the hardware. The iPhone 5 is being sold for less than it's cost to produce! It's a well documented fact with it's release this week. Apple has banked on the accessory sales, iTunes sales and profits from the carriers that pay to use that device with contracts. Do you actually think Verizon makes a dime selling an iPhone 5 at $199? No, they make up for it in the 2 year contract.
So let's not use electronics as a comparison to the boat business. If the margins would have been so great on SeaDoo boats, they would have lowered their margins for more volume a long time ago once they realized they were producing 1/4 the boats their facility was able to produce in a single year. That's pretty easy math. If their facility had an annual capacity of 2000 boats, then that would not be the issue.
That's why I bring up the example of Yamaha boats. They are selling and have more demand than they can produce in a single year in one facility. So do they choose to raise the prices and increase margins, or do they build another facility to meet up with demand. They chose the later, and in this case, that gamble is going to pay off, as one of their competitors is hanging it up. Now they have to worry about the new guys to the market as SeaRay just announced a new line of Jet Boats for 2013 just this last week at their annual SeaRay owners group get together. That's making quite a rumble in the Yamaha camp as most of their owners have already shelled out $30-$50K for their Yamaha and the only way to move is up into a $50-$100K SeaRay if they jump ship.
biffdotorg
Active Member
"Jump Ship" Pun intended!! HA!
bluespottedhorse
New Member
No one is using electronics to compare to boats...electronics don't float as well...now that's a comparison. Electronics are only one example of cost to build. If the price was lower for a new boat I would have bought one but who can afford a boat/trailer for almost 30k...they just aren't worth it. I bought a used speedster; tower, trailer, boat, paddles, for 1/3 the cost of a new one. That rule applies to everything, walk out of the store and turn on your phone or car or boat and you've just lost a 3rd of its value.
biffdotorg
Active Member
NO your quote is above. You were not talking about depreciation. You were talking about the margin between cost to build and what it was sold for. There is not a car made in the US by the major three that costs 5K to build and is sold for $30K. You also brought electronics into the mix when you said iphones cost $50 to make and $700 to buy.
Those were both untrue and bad comparisons to the boat business. We all know that modern industry works on tighter margins than that. True competition would prove you wrong right away in the fact that if someone was making that margin, other manufacturers would be lining up to undercut them.
bluespottedhorse
New Member
As I said before that was over 10 years ago. However, it's commonsense to see that if GM CEO, Richard Wagoner took home 14 million (greed) in 2007 then one would have to sell alot of cars to make that up. Further, having worked for a car dealership I can tell you a plastic trim piece for a vent made in a factory doesn't cost 87 dollars plus tax to produce. However, it does cost 87 dollars for you as the consumer to buy it.
bluespottedhorse
New Member
Do you really think that companies don't fix to keep prices artifically high, the boat industry is not different. I don't think a plastic bungy cord costs them 35 dollars to make. Like most people we don't have the disposible income that we once had. If Seadoo dropped the price of their boats I'd of bought new and I'm sure lots of other people would also. If you ever replaced a part on your boat you'd soon realize the price to buy doesn't equal the cost to make.
biffdotorg
Active Member
Don't change this to an Autoparts comparison. Margin on parts is not the same conversation as margin on the whole car. The overhead of a full automobile is not the sum of it's parts.
That's the part of this conversation you are still neglecting. The Overhead on the boat, is not the sum of it's parts. It the whole cost of the boat from the parts, marketing, facility, manpower to assemble, delivery, prep etc. This is not a margin on parts discussion, otherwise you would have a valid point. Since it is not, then your point is still invalid.
That's the part of this conversation you are still neglecting. The Overhead on the boat, is not the sum of it's parts. It the whole cost of the boat from the parts, marketing, facility, manpower to assemble, delivery, prep etc. This is not a margin on parts discussion, otherwise you would have a valid point. Since it is not, then your point is still invalid.
BMANN06
Well-Known Member
This is turning into an interesting debate.
Lets examine this "plastic bungy" cord that costs me (consumer) $35.00 to purchase. Raw material alone is probably negligible (i agree) but there is an engineer who has to design it, a machine has to be purchased to produce it, technicans need to be employed to support the machine and labourers required to run the machine. That's a big bill on its own ... now the company also has to rent/buy/build a warehouse to store this part along with a sku system that makes it easy for employees to locate and inventory system to manage it, all this stuff is freakin' super expensive. All this is so that when I want it I get this part I get it as soon as possible. And as biff put it, most dealers make their biggest profits off sales and service so of course theres a slice of the $35.00 in there for them aswell.
Lets examine this "plastic bungy" cord that costs me (consumer) $35.00 to purchase. Raw material alone is probably negligible (i agree) but there is an engineer who has to design it, a machine has to be purchased to produce it, technicans need to be employed to support the machine and labourers required to run the machine. That's a big bill on its own ... now the company also has to rent/buy/build a warehouse to store this part along with a sku system that makes it easy for employees to locate and inventory system to manage it, all this stuff is freakin' super expensive. All this is so that when I want it I get this part I get it as soon as possible. And as biff put it, most dealers make their biggest profits off sales and service so of course theres a slice of the $35.00 in there for them aswell.
bluespottedhorse
New Member
This isn't about autopart, margins, or even overheads and these are only examples which some people read as absolutes, and that is their undoing. For myself I was able to purchase a used boat at 1/3 the cost of brand new one and as I've stated before I'd of bought new but like the rest of you, didn't have the 27k plus tax. It's simple math, I'd of bought another seadoo if the price was lower and I'm sure most people would too but we just can't afford it.
bluespottedhorse
New Member
Absolutely, any one taking their boat, car, snowmobile, etc, etc for service will soon realize there is a huge disparity between the service and or parts received and the bill. Also in most cases the more expensive an item costs usually equals a higher profit margin...not less. I bet the cost to produce a boat is way under 5k for a manufacturer. That leaves alot of profit!
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I think maybe the shell could cost 5K to make with modern machines today. The big price changes were when the industry went from 2 to 4 stroke engines. The reason the older boats were cheaper was the engines and electronics. The 2-stokes cost way less to make. The proof is in what is costs for a rebuilt egnine between the 2 and 4 strokes. I bet that damn 4-stoke super charged unit has more electronics than my 06' Chevy HHR engine. Look that jet ski prices the cost is double or more for the same jet ski now becuase for the 4-stoke and shell it needs to house it. 13K for new jet ski that is stuip pricing so how much to think a boat cost is the 10' version is 13-15K?
Lets be honest guys, I have talked to someone who made "$100" dollars an hour on an assembly plant here in the U.S., to make subpar worksmanship... I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I JUST PURCHASED A BRAND NEW SEADOO SPEEDSTER...
Please understand me, I also bought a brand new HUMMER, and I have a lot of imports.. Do you know what I see? you don't want to know...I don't want to get flamed up and down, but I have to tell you, these imports are putting ME TO SHAME... they are made better FOR LESS!
So Im going to try to make it better, by building my parts better in this country. I want my kids to have a future here too.
So, lets see, BRP is moving their watercraft division to Mexico, sadly they make like 1/100th what we make, maybe we can get lucky and they start reproducing their boats.
Where does Yamaha built their boats at?
It's true since they build them in Illinois and my state is heavy Unions I am sure the assemblers get paid very well and have unbelievable benifits and retirements. Quality of work and wages are crazy. Some people get way to much, but most don't get enough. So many Unions are ran like a business, they don't care about the works they just want there cut.
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