'98 GTI Doesn't fire, FAST clicking

[Gary98GTI]

Ug, my '98 GTI doesn't start and I'm on vacation!

My son was riding it and he says he heard a loud thump and the engine died. When I try to start it, and hear a very fast clicking sound, almost like holding a stick against the spokes of a spinning wheel.

The engine doesn't seem to fire but the shaft does spin. I don't believe that this is a starter, solinod, battery or missing teeth on the fly wheel problem because the shaft spins freely.

Any ideas?

 

[seadoosnipe]

.....not good

I don't think that's gonna be a good thing to hear. You say your on vacation, so I'll assume you don't have a compression gage on you. How about a spark plug wrench? If so, take your plug wires off, attach them to ground, then put your thumb over each hole and see if you can feel any pressure from the firing stroke. Or, with both plugs out, you should be able disconnect the battery, grab the shaft and spin it over counterclockwise. Use a pencil, or the like, and hold onto it and set it into the hole till you feel the piston top. Roll the engine by hand and see if each piston rises and falls.....get back ASAP. I think you may have a broken wrist pin or connecting rod.........which either way, means your vacation will be cooked. If you know what a bad bendix, broken teeth, "clicking" starter solenoid are, and you can discount that, then I'd believe you probably already know you may have a blown engine.
Without much more info, it will be hard to speculate on any other idea....we could really use a compression test....

 

[Gary98GTI]

I took off the splash guard, took out the plugs and can't seem to turn the fly wheel more then a 1/8 turn without hitting something solid. But, when I hit the starter, the fly wheel and shaft spin ? What's with that?

Shouldn't I be able to turn the fly wheel by hand?

I have some tools with me, but I don't have my compression gauge nor do I have my torque wrench. I probably have enough to get the engine apart and a dealer close enough by to get parts, but the torque wrench would be a problem.

 

[seadoosnipe]

turning by hand.....

Yes, if there is nothing wrong with the internal parts of the engine and the plugs are removed, you should be able to roll the engine over "really easy" by hand. Normal direction is counter clockwise. By your description, it does sound like you dropped a connecting rod. Especially because you can only spin the engine by hand so far before you hit something.
You say you can spin it over with the starter, but it's making a clicking sound. Go ahead, make sure your plug wires are on the grounding lugs and with the plugs out, spin the engine over and see if you can see a "blow" from each cylinder during it's compression/power stroke.
If you have dropped a cylinder, I don't know how fast you can get it fixed. A large percentage of the time, when this happens, the piston connecting rod will come out the side of the block somewhere.
Do you still use the injection pump or did you switch to premix? What kind of oil are you using? The standard 2-cycle oil is a no-no in the Rotax. You have to use a non-NMMA, non TWC-3, low ash type oil only. Any other oil will cause this to happen.
Also, reading your thread again, this would be an engine pull to replace or repair. If it's dropped a piston and it's poked a hole in the casing, or messed it up inside, it may be cheaper to get an OEM replacement. You can get one online, delivered to your door. You have to ship your core back to them within a 10-15 day time frame.
One more thing..................I'm not saying you did drop a piston, it only sounds like, with the information provided, that you did. If you have air blow on each piston, then something may have broken on the magneto, balance shaft, or rotary shaft. But it does sound serious.
Sorry....just looked up your engine, you have the 717cc....so you don't have the balance shaft...but all others apply

 

[Gary98GTI]

I'll see if I can find a compression gauge tomorrow and post the results...

Thanks for your help...
Gary

 

[seadoosnipe]

Your welcome...

Your welcome. I'll be looking for your results. I'm on night shift tonight, so if you post early, one of the other senior Premium member/mechanics may read and post too, I'll be sleeping in late in the morning........but I will check to see your results first thing.
I hate to hear this happen while you were on vacation.
Oh, you may have been reading my last thread while I was editing it, so go back and check it for further info. I did want you to know, I'm not saying you did drop a piston, only that it sounds like it. It could be a couple other things.........

 

[Gary98GTI]

Acceptable compression!

Ok, I've got a cylinder tester; good news! The forward cylinder is 120psi and the 2nd cylinder is 130psi :hurray:!

Btw, I only have been using oil from the seadoo dealer (expensive stuff). I only use the twc-3 for my Yamaha.

After re-reading your notes, I figured out that I was trying to turn the flywheel clickwise instead of counter clickwise (it's also day light now so I can see what I'm doing). I can the flywheel counter clickwise, but it takes a little bit of a pull. I would not consider it "freely" moving. It also clicks as I turn it, about 3 clicks per 1/4 turn.

So, if the problem is not with the pistons, then my shop class days tells me this has to do with the timing plate, teeth, and/or gear stuff.

Any suggestions what I should check next?

Thanks again!

 

[seadoosnipe]

compression.

That's great. It still doesn't discount the fact that you may have a main bearing issue on the crank. I got to thinking about the other possibilities last night, which is why I posted the additional stuff.
Can you hear the or determine from which area you can hear the clicking sounds? The only other thing I can think of is your rotary valve or your magneto.......rotary in center and magneto on front.....let me know if you can determine from which side of the engine the noise is coming from.

 

[Gary98GTI]

clicks from rear

The clicking noise seems to come the rear of the engine, close to the flywheel. Not from the front of the engine.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Pto....

Then on the pto side of the engine, there's not much but bearings....the rotary shaft, which is a worm gear at the center of the engine and the starter flywheel, at the front.

 

[Gary98GTI]

what's a pto

Sorry, what's a pto?

To get to it, does that mean I have to take the engine apart to pull the crank shaft? At which point I would have it measured at the shop and put it back together again with new bearings.

 

[seadoosnipe]

PTO...power take off...

The pto is the white looking flywheel in the back of the motor that the drive shaft connects to. The engine is divided in two. The PTO side, which includes the back piston and back carb then the MAG (magnetor) side, has the front piston, front carb and magneto assembly.
If you can't turn the engine over freely by hand, really in either direction, then you have internal problems. You may not be able to determine that until you pull the motor. If the noise was coming from the front of the motor, I'd say you may have an issue with the magneto, which is where you electrical system picks up power, and the starter and flywheel are attached. If your problem sounds like its in the rear, PTO end, then it may be a bearing or connecting rod problem. Being the rotary shaft is in the center, then maybe, the rotary shaft bearing has been done in.
If you wanted to continue working on it, then my idea, because the noise is in the middle, then I'd be looking at taking apart the carb to get at the rotary or even removing the head to take a look at the two pistons. If you do that, you'll be able to watch them travel up and down to see if they move freely without hesitation. What I mean by that, is if you've got a connecting rod bearing out, then the piston can still make compression, it's just slop when it moves up and down. When you see it go up, if it clicks and the piston hesitates before moving in the downward direction or vice versa from the bottom of the stroke, while the other is moving up and down without hesitation, then you may have a bad bearing. The rotary shaft can be pushed and pulled by hand or twisted from side to side to check the worm gear, but you still can't do a lot there. The worm gear is removable from the shaft, it's a splined gear. But if this is your problem, there still isn't a lot you can do with it on vacation.
Again, the natural rotation of the engine is counter clockwise, but if you can't spin the engine freely, without binding in either direction, then you've got internal problems. If you've taken shop, you know what I mean.
The decision of rebuilding yourself or replacing for me, would determine the amount of damage, once I took out the motor and split the casing. If you find casing damage or substantial damage the pistons and crank, you can get an engine replacement of that model for about $750 bucks with a one or two year "no fault" guarantee.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Computer and kids....

My daughter is begging me to give her a turn on the computer.....she wants to go to barbie.com.........so I'll have to give it up for a while.
I'll check back later, but if you can't localize the noise to something specific and determine that it is coming from the inside, then further attempts to run the ski, could do worse damage. The problem may have happened at idle and the damage could be minimal......but if you were to get it started and ran WOT, then, you may do some really bad engine damage.

 

[Gary98GTI]

Mental peices found, but not clicking

Ok, I've got the heads and cylinders out. I found metal fragments below the front cylinder where the piston rod rotates around the crank shaft, obviously not a good sign. I can see that the barings around that point are bad.

I still haven't found the clicking noise, but I'm at the point where I need to pull the bottom part of the engine out and I'm not sure how to do that. I think I can disconnect the carb and move that off to the side, but I'm not sure about the front housing box (not sure what that is but it's connected to the starter motor and there's an electrical quick disconnect that plugs into it).

I'll check back in a little while to see if anyone has responded.

Thanks for the help!
Gary

 

[Gary98GTI]

Engine it out

ok, the engine is out and in the back of the truck. I've taken this as far as I can without special tools. It's down to the lower block and the clicking is still there. I can see the forward bearing where the piston meets the rod is bad and needs to be replaced.

I called the local dealer who won't work on a machine this old but he had a recommendation for a guy who's 30 miles away and opens at 9am tomorrow (Tues). Hopefully he'll be able to help me out.

I'll let you know what he does. Thanks for your help.

Gary

 

[seadoosnipe]

OEM remanafactured engine....

Gary, I know your on vacation right now and want this ski fixed, but I just wanted to reiterate that the OEM remanafactured engine is fairly inexpensive for your model and year PWC....and with what you've done this far, I have no doubt that you couldn't change this motor out yourself.
Getting a shop to rebuild it, they pretty much do the same thing. They'll order stuff online for replacement parts to be "hotshotted" in and then charge you their labor to boot, which in most shops now run around $99 bucks an hour.
I hate to hear of your mis-fortune on your vacation.
Good luck, keep us informed to your repairs.....

 

[Gary98GTI]

Please suggest web site for OEM engine

Yea, my local tech charges $95/hour so I take it as far as I can go before bringing it to him. It usally saves me some money but that last part is usally worth the extra money because of his expertise.

Can you suggest a web site that sells OEM engines for this Seadoo '98 GTI?

Thanks,
Gary

 

[kustomkarl]

Gary you could try www.sbtontheweb.com they sell change out engines and will take the old core off you hands if it is in good rebuild able condition. Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.

Karl

 

[Gary98GTI]

Dropped in new rebuilt...

ok, so here's an update...

I was able to find a mechanic to look at it first thing Tuesday morning. He agreed that the crank shaft was probably shot and that he could get parts in overnight and built back up my noon on Wednesday for $1250.

At that point, I knew the only way to go was to drop a rebuilt in, and luck be with me, www.SBTontheweb.com is only 150 miles up the street. So I went and bought a rebuilt from them for $740, plus $50 labor to pull the fly wheel (I don’t have a pull with me), $175 for them to time it, plus tax. Turns out we found part of the baring shrapnel that was pulled into the disc that spins around that lets fuel/air into the cylinder. Total $1k. I got back to our vacation home on Tuesday evening.

Early this morning I dropped it in (sounds easy but it took time) and started the break-in process late this afternoon. It started right up after 1 or 2 minutes of cranking (had to get fuel into the lines again). I should be able to finish up the break-in procedures tomorrow and have full throttle use by afternoon.

So, thanks for all of your help.
Gary

 

[seadoosnipe]

In post 12, where I told you the price, thats where I got the quote. But you seemed really sure that you were going to get it fixed with that mechanic. I see you also found out their labor rate. He was getting the crank for about $275, then the rest was his labor. I'm glad you were within driving distance. And really glad to see you got it fixed.....:hurray:
Remember, here in the forum, when things go wrong, come on in, look around, there's bound to be someone here to help you out!..............:cheers:
With repairs complete, I'll consider this thread a success and have it closed. If you have any problem in the future, please feel free to start a new thread!........