787 Engine Teardown

[jimmaki]

I was thinking about your situation this morning. Here is what I would do.

1. Email SBT with pics and see if they will weld your cases. Also ask if they will remove your flywheel since you can drive there.
2. If yes to both, then just go that route.
3. If they can't weld but will remove flywheel then get used cases and drive there.
4. If no to both, then email/call SES. I read somewhere that they have done flywheel removal for customers before in a similar situation.

I like to do things myself but there is also a point where the frustration just isn't worth it.

Hey, thanks for thinking of me! I appreciate it. Here's where I am:

1. SBT says my case is totaled. Can't weld across seam lines and get reliable seals. They referred me to their video on how to remove the flywheel.
2. No to both
3. Looking for used cases now.
4. Waiting for reply from SES. Called and got phonemail five days ago, no answer yet, sent an email four days ago, still waiting for a reply.

So far my take: SBT high volume not interested in any out of the ordinary production line work. SES hard to get answers from. I heard they do good work but can be slow and customer service slow to non existent. I can believe it if they're this slow on a sales inquiry.

Thinking of just doing this myself although frustrating, yes. But the alternatives so far don't look exactly carefree. I'd just be paying more for a different kind of frustration. I'm not necessary someone who likes to do things himself, but I like knowing they are done right which in this case isn't like the confidence I have when I take my automobiles to my mechanic who I totally trust.

 

[racerxxx]

Buy cases and a pto, drive to sbt. Pick up the engine and put the problem to bed. Let sbt deal with the pto on their dime. This mole hill is becoming a mountain. Sometimes you just need to cut the loss and spend money to end the agony. I can tell this is going to cost more for you to do it than it would just buying a reman. I'm not trying be harsh but just keeping it in reality. If you have broken screws in the mag housing they're cheap on eBay if you shop it right. I've lucked out in the past grabbing the broken screw and getting it out, other times I've had to pout it in the milling machine. I could have bought a housing cheaper than what my time is worth.

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[jimmaki]

Buy cases and a pto, drive to sbt. Pick up the engine and put the problem to bed. Let sbt deal with the pto on their dime. This mole hill is becoming a mountain. Sometimes you just need to cut the loss and spend money to end the agony. I can tell this is going to cost more for you to do it than it would just buying a reman. I'm not trying be harsh but just keeping it in reality. If you have broken screws in the mag housing they're cheap on eBay if you shop it right. I've lucked out in the past grabbing the broken screw and getting it out, other times I've had to pout it in the milling machine. I could have bought a housing cheaper than what my time is worth.

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SES replied by email said he could fix the case. I called and got his phone mail which said the mail box was full ... goodbye click. heck with that!

SBT won't fix alum across parting lines because they leak. With SES you get your case back. I dunno. Not too happy with SBT right now over another issue but it may be the lease of evils.

No mag flywheel puller from SBT yet. The alignment tool did arrive by Fedex this morning. Wish I needed it now and had a engine to align.

If I throw money at it as you suggest (which is not a bad suggestion) ... just to get a core and peripherals for reinstallation I'd need:

crankcase, top and bottom halves
pto jug
pto flylwheel
rv cover and maybe rotary valve
2 rave paddles + rave rebuilt kits (never did find the missing rave spring that started this teardown debacle!!)

also need to finish
fuel selector switch
seat or seat cover
footwell pads
vto module

already have:
new battery and battery switch
new fuel baffle with F1 fix in
new fuel lines
new fuel filter/water separator
newly rebuilt carbs with oem parts and Viton N/S
NOS "Sea Doo" graphics for hull which needs compounding/polishing
NOS cover

I need my head examined...

 

[jimmaki]

Get that engine out.

For the MAG cover remove all the bolts and you will see two slots for prying the cover off. Just work it from side to side and it will slowly work it's way off.
Use and impact to remove the Flywheel nut and on the puller. It will pop the flywheel off like nothing.

On the PTO you don't want it "red hot". Just heat it and smack then heat some more and smack. IT will come off. Also the rope will compress, that is why you keep constant pressure on the breaker bar when you hit it. I typically will have a friend hold the block down on it's side, use my foot to hold strong pressure on the breaker bar and then hit with the hammer.

If you need a break, take one and have a beer then go after it and heat again.

OK mag cover off, waiting on SBT for the right mag flywheel puller. Hopefully later today or tomorrow.

I got a structural piece of steel to bolt the engine to and hold it. Put a new impeller tool in the PTO flywheel and used an 8' breaker bar extension. Hung a 30 pound concrete block on the end of the pipe giving me a good 250 ft pounds of tension. Whacked the bar with a small sledge. Nada. Got out the big sledge and hit it with a full swing. Nada. Heated the PTO, More whacking... Nada. Took a break, reheated even hotter, go to step one. Repeat, repeat. Nada.

BTW, do not ask why the concrete edging that used to hold the pavers in place is broken and looks like someone hit it with a sledge hammer.

I got the PTO hot enough to smell the seals burning, the paint on the PTO turned brown and grease was bubbling out of the splines and burning. I really hate to say this as I'm the poster child of "never give up", but I think it's time to admit defeat.

 

[mikidymac]

Goonies never say die!

Looks hot enough but at this point what do you have to loose. More heat. On some of the stubborn ones I have had to repeat the heating and hitting quite a few times before it pops. At this pint it's personal.

 

[jimmaki]

Goonies never say die!

Looks hot enough but at this point what do you have to loose. More heat. On some of the stubborn ones I have had to repeat the heating and hitting quite a few times before it pops. At this pint it's personal.

I think someone is trying to tell me something. It's pouring rain (summer in Florida) and I've already smashed the paver edging with the sledge ... hate to take this comedy show inside since the garage floor is tiled. They double buttered all the tiles to hold the weight of the cars so replacing any would be serious pain.

lol ... yeah, it's getting personal for sure. I think I've reached the point where I'll either damage something, burn the house down or hurt myself.

 

[1of500]

You aren't heating the right place

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[1of500]

What kind of torch are you using?

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[jimmaki]

What kind of torch are you using?

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A MAP torch. Kept it pointed around the hub ... I know it looks like I was heating the outer diameter of the flywheel but I kept the flame pointed around the hub. I think the crank kept sinking heat from the center. The whole thing got smoking hot.

 

[1of500]

I had to get the heat on the back side where the threads are using mapp gas. Mine was black but I also separated the cases and put it into a vise. Next time I will go get my oxygen acetylene rig
It's the locktite that holds it
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[73Diesel]

Oxy/Acetylene is the way to go. You have to heat it fast otherwise the threads on the crank grow along with the PTO at the same rate. With Oxy/Acetylene its hot enough to get the PTO to grow faster and allow the threads to separate from the crank. Just my personal opinion.
Even use it on the flywheel to get it off. It might not be the correct way or how you should do it. But I have a universal puller that I just make the bolts snug. Then heat with oxy/acetylene and give the center bolt a little wack with a hammer. Pops loose every time.

 

[jimmaki]

I had to get the heat on the back side where the threads are using mapp gas. Mine was black but I also separated the cases and put it into a vise. Next time I will go get my oxygen acetylene rig
It's the locktite that holds it
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Getting to the back side where the threads are makes sense but I don't think it's possible, or appearant to me, while the crank is in the case. Once I get the crank out I'll try heating the back side. However, I don't have oxygen/acetylene or a big vice. Other than that ... it's indeed starting to look like a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[jimmaki]

Oxy/Acetylene is the way to go. You have to heat it fast otherwise the threads on the crank grow along with the PTO at the same rate. With Oxy/Acetylene its hot enough to get the PTO to grow faster and allow the threads to separate from the crank. Just my personal opinion.
Even use it on the flywheel to get it off. It might not be the correct way or how you should do it. But I have a universal puller that I just make the bolts snug. Then heat with oxy/acetylene and give the center bolt a little wack with a hammer. Pops loose every time.

Sounds reasonable, except I don't have Oxy/Acetylene. Thanks for the tip though. I think UPS is at the gate with the other half of my SBT tool order. Maybe I'll have the MAG flywheel off soon and can split the case.

 

[jimmaki]

The flywheel puller just arrived, got the flywheel off with the puller and a little heat. Yay! Thank you for the little victories!! I couldn't take another failure.

Notice the huge box on the right for the alignment tool, and notice how easily the flywheel puller would have fit in that big box. (just the puller not the flywheel)

But they broke the order into two halves and shipped them separately so neither would qualify for free shipping so I paid shipping on both even though they arrived within hours of each other.

 

[mikidymac]

But then they would have had to open the puller box and not charge you shipping twice. Sounds like good business to me.

I would be pissed as they clearly say free shipping on orders over $75. As your order was clearly over $75 it should have qualified for free shipping. They could have charged you a small fee for the oversize tool but not split your order and charged shipping twice.

 

[jimmaki]

Got the case apart after I finally figured out one of the bolts on the arch motor mount threads into the bottom half of the case and has to be removed. duh

The counterbalance front bearing came apart, bearing balls everywhere. The shaft wobbled so bad it tore through the case. The seal behind the counterbalance gear is mangled. Don't know if it went first, let the oil out and caused the bearing to fail, or if the bearing came apart and the wobbling shaft tore up the seal. I think the seal failed first.

The case is probably not salvageable despite what one rebuilder is telling me. Otherwise it would have been in good shape. The inside of the RV cover looks good although corrosion around the screw broke out the corner. The RV valve and RV gear look good, but what do I know? The main crank looks good although I can't tell if the RV seals are good or not. Oil all over the Mag side, the PTO side is clean.

Lifted the crank and spun all the bearings. They feel and sound good. Well, they don't make any noise.

 

[jimmaki]

But then they would have had to open the puller box and not charge you shipping twice. Sounds like good business to me.

I would be pissed as they clearly say free shipping on orders over $75. As your order was clearly over $75 it should have qualified for free shipping. They could have charged you a small fee for the oversize tool but not split your order and charged shipping twice.

Originally the flywheel puller and timing wheel came to less than $75, way less ... so I added the alignment tool to get I over $75, way over.

I should have stayed with the small $35 order and paid the $8 shipping. I could have picked up the alignment tool when I picked up the motor. But the alignment tool doesn't qualify for free shipping because of its size, nor does it add to the total.

So basically, for the right $19.95 puller to replace the other one I paid for that they sent which didn't work, I just paid $184.85 plus $21 shipping and 12.94 in tax. Pretty cool eh?

 

[mikidymac]

I have become a free shipping snob. Thanks Amazon.....

It looks like you had water and rust on the PTO crank. Cases are stained too.

 

[jimmaki]

I have become a free shipping snob. Thanks Amazon.....

It looks like you had water and rust on the PTO crank. Cases are stained too.

Looks like rust in that picture but it's oil. I think the mag RV seal is leaking. Looks like the counter weight webs were flinging oil. The Mag piston rings are gunked up with oil and the skirts are carboned up with blowby even though the engine tests 160psi both cylinders. It did look like water might have been in the front CB bearing area although the bearing feels good.

 

[jimmaki]

Would this work for my engine 1998 SPX 787 as part of the core credit on a reman? I'm asking because it's off an RFI engine. Just take that cooler off the bottom?\

This one should work (non RFI) ... most sellers say will only work for exact model it was taken out of, can't return is it's not the right one. It's 97 787 so I should work at least as a core credit yes?

The one below is an hour's drive from here, so no shipping, and I can lay hands on it before paying, but he's starting at $250! He claims the pipe mounts are good. I've already asked for a pic of the inside that's in focus. Talked to him and he's going to text me some more pics. He does business with SBT, they buy his parts. Not sure whether that's a good sign or not.





ah, here's one more in focus...

 

[jimmaki]

OK, this crankcase specifically includes 98 spx as compat, and he has several. Good enough for a core eh? Plus economy free shipping. Good seller rating. I'm going for it unless someone says STOP.

 

[racerxxx]

If your having someone build the engine it will work. If you're exchanging at sbt it probably had to be apples to apples. But you should really ask them on that, not us.

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[jimmaki]

If your having someone build the engine it will work. If you're exchanging at sbt it probably had to be apples to apples. But you should really ask them on that, not us.

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The OEM factory rebuilt for $1422 is starting to look better than the SBT engine for only $200 less (not counting freight). So I'm trying to figure out how to get a "rebuildable core." Not sure who to ask about the OEM option if where I'm heading qualifies as a "rebuildable core" ... do they use what you send in or keep them in stock like SBT?

 

[racerxxx]

I'd rather an OEM, but........you're getting the engine. You still need to add your raves and your head. So if you want to rebuild your raves with OEM, your gonna be out another 2 hundos plus. For 200 less you're getting that at sbt. I don't care what you're told but if you buy an OEM reman the warranty will only stick if the dealer installs it. I've asked about the warranty on OEM cranks I've bought and that's what I've been told.

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[jimmaki]

Wow, that sheds a whole new light on things. I'm sure the "warranty" value gets eaten up installing the rebuilt, and if it fails, removing the failed rebuilt, then installing the replacement if they don't find a way to weasel out of the warranty. I take it OEM is not "no fault" Probably by the time I pay the dealer for two installs, gaskets, misc and the removal of the failed engine it all comes to more than $1422. Reminds me of our whole house water softener lifetime warranty on parts. The labor to replace failed parts is always more than the part is worth. And if you remove or install the parts yourself, the warranty is void.

SBT doesn't really commit to what is good until you turn it in and they examine it. Then you're looking at their rates to fix or replace whatever doesn't qualify. Kinduv open ended unless I bring the core in first and they have a rebuilt on the shelf, else it's two trips.