1997 GTi- Loud thud sound when trying to start

[Venturian1]

I agree with mikidymac 100%. 1. pull the jet pump, then try to rotate the engine with the spark plugs out. All you need to remove the pump is two 10mm open end wrenches for the steering and reverse gate, (two bolts with lock nuts), then a 13mm socket, 6' extension, and ratchet wrench to remove the steering nozzle (4 bolts), and finally, a deep 17mm socket to remove the 4 bolts holding the jet pump to the hull, then pull out the pump. (In rare cases the pump may be glued to the hull with silicone. Now, with the pump disconnected from the drive shaft, If you can turn the engine by hand with the PTO flywheel -spark plugs out, your problem is with the pump, or maybe the drive shaft wasn't inserted into the impeller or the rubber plug in the end of the driveline came out and turned sideways and is binding the impeller.
If you still can't turn the PTO flywheel by hand with the spark plugs out. either the engine is seized or the starter is binding or loose.
I own a 97 GTi, and the starter can be removed without pulling the engine, but you'll have to disconnect the battery, remove the jet pump, remove the 4 engine mount bolts, and if there is shims under any of the motor mounts, remove them and keep track of where exactly they go.
Now the engine can be moved, to accommodate starter removal. You'll need a 13mm 3/8" drive socket (not deep), about a 12' extension to get the two starter mounting bolts out, then a 13mm open end wrench to remove the shorter bolt that bolts the starter bracket to the engine block at the rear of the starter. You can disconnect the fat positive cable from the starter after you move the starter away from the engine. Be careful not to disturb the drain hose attached to the lower engine block that's in the vicinity of the rear bracket.
Now with the pump out and starter off try to turn it by hand with the spark plugs out. If it still won't turn, you may want to think about a different ski.
There's lots of possibilities.... a nut or washer, or ? got dropped into the carb and is locking up the rotary valve, or, water got into the crankcase and you bearings are rusted solid, or the oil injection system failed and a piston or two have stuck rings.

 

[burtshaver2021]

I agree with mikidymac 100%. 1. pull the jet pump, then try to rotate the engine with the spark plugs out. All you need to remove the pump is two 10mm open end wrenches for the steering and reverse gate, (two bolts with lock nuts), then a 13mm socket, 6' extension, and ratchet wrench to remove the steering nozzle (4 bolts), and finally, a deep 17mm socket to remove the 4 bolts holding the jet pump to the hull, then pull out the pump. (In rare cases the pump may be glued to the hull with silicone. Now, with the pump disconnected from the drive shaft, If you can turn the engine by hand with the PTO flywheel -spark plugs out, your problem is with the pump, or maybe the drive shaft wasn't inserted into the impeller or the rubber plug in the end of the driveline came out and turned sideways and is binding the impeller.
If you still can't turn the PTO flywheel by hand with the spark plugs out. either the engine is seized or the starter is binding or loose.
I own a 97 GTi, and the starter can be removed without pulling the engine, but you'll have to disconnect the battery, remove the jet pump, remove the 4 engine mount bolts, and if there is shims under any of the motor mounts, remove them and keep track of where exactly they go.
Now the engine can be moved, to accommodate starter removal. You'll need a 13mm 3/8" drive socket (not deep), about a 12' extension to get the two starter mounting bolts out, then a 13mm open end wrench to remove the shorter bolt that bolts the starter bracket to the engine block at the rear of the starter. You can disconnect the fat positive cable from the starter after you move the starter away from the engine. Be careful not to disturb the drain hose attached to the lower engine block that's in the vicinity of the rear bracket.
Now with the pump out and starter off try to turn it by hand with the spark plugs out. If it still won't turn, you may want to think about a different ski.
There's lots of possibilities.... a nut or washer, or ? got dropped into the carb and is locking up the rotary valve, or, water got into the crankcase and you bearings are rusted solid, or the oil injection system failed and a piston or two have stuck rings.

Is it necessary to remove the jet pump and unbolt the engine to take the starter out of this? I know I’m my 95XP the bottom bolt had to be done blind but I removed and installed without removing anything else. Would there not be more room on the 97 GTI than thé 95XP for starter removal?

 

[mikidymac]

Starter should not cause the engine to not turn over by hand.

 

[burtshaver2021]

Starter should not cause the engine to not turn over by hand.

I had it happen

 

[Venturian1]

Starter should not cause the engine to not turn over by hand.

Unless it was stuck engaged with the flywheel, no?

 

[Venturian1]

Is it necessary to remove the jet pump and unbolt the engine to take the starter out of this? I know I’m my 95XP the bottom bolt had to be done blind but I removed and installed without removing anything else. Would there not be more room on the 97 GTI than thé 95XP for starter removal?

You are correct, it is not absolutely necessary, I have done it also. But the guy that started this thread stated that he was not too mechanically inclined, so I was just offering a sequence of troubleshooting his problem, in an easier way, that maybe he would at least attempt to do. By the way, how does one keep the driveshaft in the center of the hole while reinstalling a pump? I've came up with two methods.... One way is with a thin rope, like the old window blinds pull strings, tied across the two top pump studs running underneath the driveshaft with a quick release knot, but recently, I have changed to a rag, with a small rope tied to one corner. Fold the rag as much as necessary and place it under the driveshaft with the rope hanging out through the grate. As soon as i get one nut on, I pull the rope from underneath to remove the rag!

 

[burtshaver2021]

You are correct, it is not absolutely necessary, I have done it also. But the guy that started this thread stated that he was not too mechanically inclined, so I was just offering a sequence of troubleshooting his problem, in an easier way, that maybe he would at least attempt to do. By the way, how does one keep the driveshaft in the center of the hole while reinstalling a pump? I've came up with two methods.... One way is with a thin rope, like the old window blinds pull strings, tied across the two top pump studs running underneath the driveshaft with a quick release knot, but recently, I have changed to a rag, with a small rope tied to one corner. Fold the rag as much as necessary and place it under the driveshaft with the rope hanging out through the grate. As soon as i get one nut on, I pull the rope from underneath to remove the rag!

I have never taken 1 single jet pump off yet, something I would like to do but have not needed to, To remove the engines I have been unbolting the motor mounts, sliding the engine ahead and lifting out and keeping track of the shims. Probably not the smartest thing to be doing especially since I do own the alignment tool.

 

[gotGTi]

Update. Squirted more WD-40 and engine oil. Today I was able to rotate pto qtr of an inch. I kept trying for minutes and finally ot rotated freely!!

I cleaned and dried the wet plugs. While they were out, I pushed start button many times to see if I could get most of the stuff in holes. Not much came out, but I felt pressure. Installed the plugs, but motor is just trying to start. No more thud sound tho.
Did I flood the motor?

 

[mikidymac]

I’m sure it’s fine.

 

[gotGTi]

I’m sure it’s fine.

Thnx, you guys are so helpful! I almost gave up on money pit. Lol.
I hope you are so right.Should I leave the plugs out so extra gas evaporates? Buy new plugs? I am recharging the battery now.

 

[Grim]

IMO, I would spray just a little defogger in the cylinders and turn it over a few times to coat the insides real well, use a rag to keep the fluids from going everywhere. If you don't know how old the spark plugs are or if they are in bad shape, get new ones, they are cheap.

 

[gotGTi]

IMO, I would spray just a little defogger in the cylinders and turn it over a few times to coat the insides real well, use a rag to keep the fluids from going everywhere. If you don't know how old the spark plugs are or if they are in bad shape, get new ones, they are cheap.

Yeah, spark plug is only $4. I bought them last night. I have not tried to start her yet. Battery was still charging after 4 hours, I must have really drained it's juice .
Yes, I will buy defogger oil.
she starts and turns over this morning.

 

[Venturian1]

Yeah, spark plug is only $4. I bought them last night. I have not tried to start her yet. Battery was still charging after 4 hours, I must have really drained it's juice .
Yes, I will buy defogger oil.
she starts and turns over this morning.

Aren't you glad you didn't sell it "as is" ? A couple of tips: When flushing, start motor - before turning on water. Turn off water first then give it a couple of good revs to blow out water, then stop motor. Firmly grab the exhaust and shake the engine to check for loose motor mounts periodically. Also, do the same to the starter. Turn the fuel selector to the off position when not using it. Sometimes the carb will leak fuel into the engine, any liquid ...... water or 2-stroke oil, or gas in the crankcase can lock it up and prevent the engine from turning over. and ground the spark plugs when cranking with the plugs out. I usually turn my gas off, then turn the water off (when flushing), then rev it a couple of times then kill it.

 

[gotGTi]

Aren't you glad you didn't sell it "as is" ? A couple of tips: When flushing, start motor - before turning on water. Turn off water first then give it a couple of good revs to blow out water, then stop motor. Firmly grab the exhaust and shake the engine to check for loose motor mounts periodically. Also, do the same to the starter. Turn the fuel selector to the off position when not using it. Sometimes the carb will leak fuel into the engine, any liquid ...... water or 2-stroke oil, or gas in the crankcase can lock it up and

prevent the engine from turning over. and ground the spark plugs when cranking with the plugs out. I usually turn my gas off, then turn the water off (when flushing), then rev it a couple of times then kill it.

Well, crossed fingers did not work. I pushed start to blow any liquid, wd40 and engine oil, I poured in the plug holes when I could not freely rotate pto.
Even with fully charged battery and new spark plugs, she did not turnover. It's trying....I think.
Oh man, I never put the fuel selector to off position. Too much fuel?

 

[burtshaver2021]

There’s a problem somewhere, engines do not just not seize up on a regular basis, the fact that you were measuring 7 or so volts at the starter is not proper either. Have you ever flooded the engine with water by having the hose on without the engine running?

 

[burtshaver2021]

Well, crossed fingers did not work. I pushed start to blow any liquid, wd40 and engine oil, I poured in the plug holes when I could not freely rotate pto.
Even with fully charged battery and new spark plugs, she did not turnover. It's trying....I think.
Oh man, I never put the fuel selector to off position. Too much fuel?

Take the plugs out and roll it over with the starter, if it blows fuel out then your needle is leaking but I doubt this is your problem, when your trying to roll it over by hand with the plugs out are you turning the pto located under the grey pto cover?

 

[burtshaver2021]

Also just a reminder to make sure you are grounding the plug wires on the posts when cranking with plugs out

 

[Venturian1]

Had the pump serviced, and said it would start up before, and after, servicing, then would not turn over, just clunk, and with the spark plugs out, could not turn it over by hand, Hmmm. You should remove the plugs, ground the plug wires on the provided grounding posts, and make sure your battery is fully charged and connections are clean and tight, cover the spark plug holes with a towel and see if it will crank over with the start button. Wouldn't hurt to have a volt meter connected to the battery too, to check voltage drop. If it turns over, crank it for 5 seconds, let it rest for 5, repeat until no more liquid blows out of the spark plug holes.
If one cylinder seems dryer than the other, you can run it on that one cylinder for a short time to clear out the crankcase, but make sure the unused plug wire is on the ground post.
If it still won't crank over, you can check the grounding cable by connecting a jumper cable from the negative battery post to the base of the temp sensor on the head, if its not painted. The ground wire on those connects to the engine block right next to the two main starter fasteners, and its difficult to see / check.

 

[mikidymac]

I’m shocked it won’t run, shocked I say. Not being able turn it over by hand is something majorly wrong mechanically. It isn’t just going to magically fix itself.

 

[gotGTi]

Take the plugs out and roll it over with the starter, if it blows fuel out then your needle is leaking but I doubt this is your problem, when your trying to roll it over by hand with the plugs out are you turning the pto located under the grey pto cover?

Yes, I took out that cover and rotated the big disc pto.

 

[burtshaver2021]

Yes, I took out that cover and rotated the big disc pto.

Ok, just checking. Not sure where you are at? Is it back to a state of boy turning over by hand? Where there any terrible sounds coming from the engine the last time it ran? I’m still leaning towards this being a starter that’s getting stuck engaged into the flywheel. Are you up for turning a few wrenches? I know you had mentioned not being very mechanically inclined but if your not in a big hurry you will be amazed what you can get done with a manual and some help when needed, time to start ruling out things,

 

[gotGTi]

There’s a problem somewhere, engines do not just not seize up on a regular basis, the fact that you were measuring 7 or so volts at the starter is not proper either. Have you ever flooded the engine with water by having the hose on without the engine running?

About 6 weeks ago while boating with shuttlecraft connected, I noticed I was running slow even with full throttle. I heard a lot of rattling so stopped and checked underneath seat. We'll, the bolts from the muffler(?) came loose and I saw water gushing out! I tried to tightened the fasteners but I don't have the right size socket. I used a battery water pump to suck out most of water underway to dock. We made it without the engine stalling.

It took a few days before I was able to have the bolts and gasket replaced.

Afterwards, I was just starting her for about 20 seconds for weeks until finally it would not start, thus the thud sound. So I think you are correct that I had sucked in water.

 

[burtshaver2021]

About 6 weeks ago while boating with shuttlecraft connected, I noticed I was running slow even with full throttle. I heard a lot of rattling so stopped and checked underneath seat. We'll, the bolts from the muffler(?) came loose and I saw water gushing out! I tried to tightened the fasteners but I don't have the right size socket. I used a battery water pump to suck out most of water underway to dock. We made it without the engine stalling.

It took a few days before I was able to have the bolts and gasket replaced.

Afterwards, I was just starting her for about 20 seconds for weeks until finally it would not start, thus the thud sound. So I think you are correct that I had sucked in water.

I don’t think you ingested any water when that happened because you said you made it back without the engine stalling. You may get better advice than this from others here who have more experience than myself but if it’s locked up right now you could try taking that starter out. Just make sure it is in fact locked up by trying to rotate the pto with plugs out and if it is locked up remove that starter. Undo your battery connections before starting and try to reduce your chances of losing a bolt under the engine by stuffing it with rags. All fasteners are metric on these, i can have a look but I believe those are 10mm

 

[gotGTi]

Ok, just checking. Not sure where you are at? Is it back to a state of boy turning over by hand? Where there any terrible sounds coming from the engine the last time it ran? I’m still leaning towards this being a starter that’s getting stuck engaged into the flywheel. Are you up for turning a few wrenches? I know you had mentioned not being very mechanically inclined but if your not in a big hurry you will be amazed what you can get done with a manual and some help when needed, time to start ruling out things,

Lol. I am actually learning a lot here.
When I hit start button, I can see the shaft rotate. My son says the impeller too.

No weird sound from engine when it was running. I remember the last time it ran, it stalled like it is out of gas.
I checked tank and level was low ( driveway is steep). I added more gas and still no luck.

 

[burtshaver2021]

Lol. I am actually learning a lot here.
When I hit start button, I can see the shaft rotate. My son says the impeller too.

No weird sound from engine when it was running. I remember the last time it ran, it stalled like it is out of gas.
I checked tank and level was low ( driveway is steep). I added more gas and still no luck.

So the engine is cranking over now with starter, it just won’t start?