Old VS New... the eternal debate

[Stunnerable]

Ok guys.. It's been a while since I was on here. I want to start with a topic that.. well, as time goes on I realize it bothers me more and more. I want to share this with all of you to hopefully gain some insight on your own respective opinions. So here it goes...


Cutting to the chase, I hate the new Sea-Doos. But, not for the simple reason of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke or the fact that all of them (new skis) are now big, fat, heavy, bloated bore machines that serve no other purpose than to sell to the skilless mass market and tree hugging liberals. ehh.. didn't expect to rant like that.. sorry.

Anyway, here's the point, I got into this sport because it reminded me of my other passion, motocross. Back in the early 90s we had choices (other than standups) like Blasters, X-2's, jammers.. come to think of it, almost all skis back them reminded you of an MX bike in the woops. They were light, quick, flick-able and easy to work on. Oh, and cost about as much as a dirtbike!

Lets fast forward a decade: The average weight of a new ski (even factoring in the current stand ups) is well over 700 or even 800 pounds. They have deep V hulls and.. ehh.. OPAS. I think I just threw up a little. They are quicker and faster than ever but so are Fountain speed boats for that matter. Problem is, THAT ISN'T WHAT SKI'S ARE FOR!!!!!!!! Also, they cost about as much as some cars. WTF is that about!!!

This sport used to be exciting and fresh. Every year there was a tweek here and there that made the new skis just a little better than the year before. That ended somewhere around the turn of the century when 3 seaters became the dominant seller and safety tech was where R&D money was spent. BORING!!!!

All I ask is for is that the manufactures to build just 1... ONE!! ski that us hard core riders would be proud to own and ride. ONE!!!!!

My dream is a carbon/kevlar X4 hull with an all new 1000cc Rotax 2 stroke with around 180-200 reliable HP. They actually can build it very cean.. it has been done with stratified ignition and high pressure injection. 400lbs or less. It would be the quickest ski ever built and if it never touches 70MPH who the hell cares.

Until then, mark my words. I will never buy a new ski until they actually build a ski I enjoy.

Am I alone here or are there others that feel the same way?

Thanks for putting up with my rant people.

Joe

 

[LouDoo]

Ditto, Check out the X4 Thread, there's a lot of us that feel the same way.

Lou

 

[brandon32689]

id like to have a brand new set just for a few reasons,

number 1 being warrinty
number 2 being to just say i have a brand new set

i wouldnt want a new set becuase i like to have money to go to the lake not make payments on them, 2 of them would cost as much as my brand new truck and sit in storage 50 percent of the time,

 

[Dr Honda]

HERE-HERE !!

OK... I have a ton of toys. Some new, and some old. But as far as my Jet skis are concerned... mid 90's to early 2000, 2-stoke will be all I own. (with carbs) Even my giant Polaris Genesis (4 place) is under 700 Lbs. A new 2 place ski weighs as much as my Sportster boat. When a 2-stoke pop's... you can fix it easy. When a new 4-stroke drops a valve, sometimes it's not worth fixing.

I love the old wave blaster... it was a fun machine. The 701 Yamaha engine was plenty of power for that skinny little hull. Funny though... the HX SeaDoo wasn't as much fun.

In my watercraft stable... There has always been a larger hull (3 person or larger) a "Sport" hull (light 2 place) and a stand up.


There is a thread in the off topic section... and it was titled "What would you like to see in the next skis?" I made a long post about making a light, no frills machine that would be under $6000.

 

[mookie]

I agree with you 100%, even though this is only my 2nd year of riding a ski, there is no way I would consider buying a new three seater. I have rode the new bigger and faster ski's but nothing compares to my 95 xp. I love the way it handles and turns and will never give it up...long live the smokers and the fun they bring.

 

[brandon32689]

I'll tell you what compares to your 95xp try a 96 lol. Almost 30 more horsies

 

[Stunnerable]

Unless you have an XP785/800. :drool5:

 

[purple_people_eater]

i agree completly. as a mater of fact a big bore 951 in a fiberglass x4 hull, setup correctly, OWNS. and there is actually a shop place near lake norman in NC where if you bring them an x4 hull,gutted, and 5g's with in two weeks you'll have a ski the is guaranteed to hit 68 mph. so for 5.5 grand you can have a ski that will utterly own out on the water. i swear one day when i have cheap 951 donor fall unto my lap, and my 787 blows up, i'm going to convert to a 951.

 

[brandon32689]

ya that would be cool but the 787 i think is a better more reliable motor than the 951 i usually just here problems out of it

 

[Stunnerable]

i agree completly. as a mater of fact a big bore 951 in a fiberglass x4 hull, setup correctly, OWNS. and there is actually a shop place near lake norman in NC where if you bring them an x4 hull,gutted, and 5g's with in two weeks you'll have a ski the is guaranteed to hit 68 mph. so for 5.5 grand you can have a ski that will utterly own out on the water. i swear one day when i have cheap 951 donor fall unto my lap, and my 787 blows up, i'm going to convert to a 951.

Actually, a 1080 BB w twin pipes puts out so much power the X4 will pull 60 in a few seconds. That OWNS!

 

[brandon32689]

ive seen a few videos were people have put like a v6 in a gsx lol

 

[purple_people_eater]

Actually, a 1080 BB w twin pipes puts out so much power the X4 will pull 60 in a few seconds. That OWNS!

how do you make a 1080? do you "stroke" a 951?

 

[Stunnerable]

I'm sorry.. 1050 Miller big bore. Mel Millers super motors. I hear they can put out 200+ HP in full race tune.

Can you imagine that in an X4? It would destroy any X model... not top end.. but who cares.

 

[LouDoo]

I brought this up on another thread. BRP owns Johnson/Evinrude, they make a great 2 stroke outboard that meets current and future EPS emission standards. Why can't BRP develop a new power plant based on this technology for SeaDoo's. I don't mean adapt a outboard power plant, we all know what happened with the mercury power SeaDoo boats, but a whole new 2 stroke engine. Its a mystery to me.

What do y'all think???

Lou

 

[ski-d00]

Well, it's all about sales. BRP is a business and is giving the consumer as a whole what they want so they can make money and survive. Everytime SeaDoo puts out a sport oriented 1 or 2 seater, it just doesn't sell well. Look at the 3D, great fun machine but was the worst selling model ever. The HX, also fun, major flop, RXX, flop. Even the latest XP, ski of the decade, and RXP that is so beloved by many, just doesn't sell in the numbers that the GTX does. Yes, there is a group of people here that think we would all buy one (even though most wouldn't due to lack of funds in comparison to buying older models) but that would lead a very small number of sales and yet another flop. Face it, BRP is trying to make money, can you blame them?

As far as speed, there is no ski on the water that can keep up with the highly modded RXPs, they are pushing 90mph now. RXPs out of the box will do 69 or 70 gps and a few light mods will get them into the mid 70s easily. The old xp X4 pumps can not produce the thrust needed to reach these speeds regardless of how much horsepower you have. Not just top speed either, from start to finish. So, if you want to go fast, you need to step up to a 4 stroke. Yes, they cost a little more right now but you can get an 04 RXP for $4-$5k.

I love 2 strokes and always will, but BRP nor anybody else is going to design a new high horsepower 2 stroke, just wouldn't make sense business wise, let alone keep the tree huggers happy.

 

[LouDoo]

Point well taken and I'm not arguing with you. But the new skis are more like boats than skis, they don't jump waves they just plow through them, and with the prices you might just a well buy a boat. I hate to say this but if I were in the market for a new ski, which I'm not I would probably buy a Kawasaki. They're smaller and more nimble.

Lou

 

[Dr Honda]

Ski-D00 and Lou.... You guys both make good points.


Ski-D00... you are absolutely right. People want a ski that verges on the edge of being a "Boat". I keep a few skis in the stable, and I can chose what to play with. But... Even though, my Genesis is a monster... I like to ride it. It's big, stable, and you can use it like a small boat. And now that I'm 40... I find myself drawn to it more and more.

Because of that... and because America is getting FAT and lazy... everyone who buys a ski wants a 3 seater that they can ride without getting wet. (proof of that is with the new I-catch trailer)

Reflecting on what I said above..... I'm very surprised that they haven't put out 4 passenger skis again. Polaris, Seadoo, and Yamaha all had them for 3 or 4 years at the beginning of 2000... but they all went away because of low sales numbers. I would think that it may be a viable alternative again.



Lou:

Yes, Johnson/Evenrude makes an eco friendly 2-stroke. But, as above... the Tree Huggers don't like them, and 2-strokes are being baned on some lakes. Also... the general public doesn't like the stink, and smoke on a 2-stroke. So... 2-stroke's in a ski is gone.

Oh... and if they did a 2-stroke in a ski... it may be more expensive than the current 4-tech engines because of all the electronics. (have you seen the price of a new outboard engine ?!?!? Crazy)


I just wish they would do a no frills ski. Give me a basic hull, without an ass load of gauges, (basic temp, and fuel) and a 4-tech engine with carbs. I don't need reverse, a VTS, closed loop cooling, or breaking system either. They could do it for less than $5k, and it would allow more people to enjoy the sport. (just removing the closed loop cooling would probably remove +$1k of the price tag)


Oh... last thing... We like the older skis because we aren't scared to grab some tools and keep them running. I came to the realization yesterday that people don't buy the old skis because they don't want a "Lemon." I was talking with a very nice lady about my old '90 Si that I'm selling... and she told me she didn't have a good feeling because it was 20 years old. My response to her was.... "Even if you bought a ski that was only a year old... if that last owner rolled the ski, and left it sit in the garage with water int the engine, and electrical system... that ski would be dead." She understood what I was saying... but there is the "Illusion" of age Vs. reliability. (for most people)


OK... getting off my soap box.

 

[JDMTURBOZ]

one major reason i want to buy a new style ski is the amazing fuel mileage the big 4 strokes get.....give me a break!!... $100 worth of gas for 2hrs of full blast riding vs. $60 for all day blasting on my GSXL. i thought the new ones were supposed to be good on gas, not a whole lot worse. i dont know about you guys but i would rather ride all day than be at the pumps filling those big heavy machines so i can play for 2 hrs and go home because im broke. do the tree huggers that bitched and made us lose our beloved easy to fix 2 strokes know that the ECO friendly machines use a ton more Dinosaur juice. just something to think about....

 

[Dr Honda]

one major reason i want to buy a new style ski is the amazing fuel mileage the big 4 strokes get.....give me a break!!...

New skis aren't supposed to get good fuel economy. When has anyone said that??? we make power by burning fuel. That fuel only makes so much heat, to expand. If you want 300 HP... there is no magic. You have to feed it 300 hp worth of fuel.

A typical mid 90's ski would burn about 10 gal/hr (on average)... a modern ski is around 18 gal/hr. (at full throttle)

The only thing that the new skis have over the old skis... is that they have monster fuel tanks. The normal mid 90's tank was 9 gal... and a new tank is +15 gal.


Before anyone trys to dispute that... don't. This is just an average of what I see. Yes... there are old big engines that are hungry, and old skis with large fuel tanks.... but that was not the norm.

 

[purple_people_eater]

yes but there places that still make carbon fiber x4 hulls so the customer base is still there but as ski-doo said, why convert an assembly line to make a ski thats only going to sell 1000-3000 units when they make the monsters that sell 5000+ units. its business.

and another thing, why have a water toy if you don't want to get wet??!! that makes no since what-so-ever to me. splashing around and carving is one of my favorite things to do on a ski.

 

[brandon32689]

I agree I love to get wet, especially here in tx we've already had 108 degree days and I gti to fall off the jet ski lol.

There is a place that makes x4 hulls?

This winter I plan on removing everything out of my ski and stripping it down completely and either painting it or get it painted. Also wouldn't mind if I could find someone to wrap it.

 

[purple_people_eater]

yeah i'll have to double check to make sure, but i remember reading somewhere that somebody was making carbon fiber x4 hulls.

 

[Stunnerable]

I've said it before but wouldn't it be sick if BRP released a new engine for our old 800 skis. Maybe a 1000cc inline twin RAVE with 160-180 hp with a warrenty for us sickos. Maybe include a pump to match it. Hello 0-60 in 2 seconds!!

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I want a 3 stroke engine dammit!
It's a bit better than a 2 stroke, but less weight than a 4

I just invented it. I'm not sure how it will work yet, but I hope to secure funding today.
or something whatever, I need a drink.
actually, right now I just want some 60 degree weather so I can RIDE.

How could I sync 2 951s in a row to make a 260 HP ski? if I take the GTX and move the tank forward... I could link 2 engines with one drive shaft! mhwuha ha ha ha ha!

 

[bigJake]

i read the thread title and thought it was about nekid girls, oh well. Since we got to talk about skis, I'll take my '96/'97 GSX's over those big 3 seaters anyday. Those heavy things are absolutely zero fun to ride.