When I bolt on pump, it wont spin....spins free unbolted to hull.

[Chips]

I melted a plastic pump on my 97 Speedster and got a brass pump to replace it. I installed a new wear ring and made sure the thrust washer and bearing did not pinch... the impeller spins freely in pump when not attached to hull (outside of it catching a bit of the wear ring at one spot..).

When I mount it to the hull and its tight, I cannot spin the PTO by hand...its basically locked. If I loosen the nuts on the pump a little, the PTO will spin.

I used the engine alignment tool for for the motor mounts and got it nearly perfect. Since this is a new to me and boat pump, is it possible the pump needs to be shimmed to loosen up the tension front to back on the pump to engine, or is there something I am missing?

Also, when the pump is bolted tight to the hull and the plastic cone on the end of the pump is off, revealing the end of the pump shaft...it is set into place...no in and out free play like when its off the hull. When the pump is bolted to the hull, should there still be that slight free play in and out with the pump shaft?

Thanks for any help!

 

[Chips]

I would also like to add, that when the original pump went down I rebuilt the engine as well. So I had the entire engine out of the boat. Is it possible that I mounted the engine to close to the stern of the boat? The boat had no shims before and it was fine. After re-installing the rebuilt engine AND new pump, it clearly needed shims... Now, since I have the new pump, I cannot know if the shim need is based on the new pump or me somehow mounting the entire engine crooked... Anyway, I need help...this boat is driving me insane.

 

[TheMachin0]

did you use the same impeller from the plastic pump was it a bigger hub on the plastic pump

 

[Chips]

did you use the same impeller from the plastic pump was it a bigger hub on the plastic pump

I used the same impeller from the plastic pump but am not sure if there is a hub difference between the two pumps. I still have the melted pump and will see if I can get a measurement. If the new pump is shorter (I assume since its too tight when bolted on), will I need to shim the pump from the hull to get back to proper length for the drive line?

 

[TheMachin0]

shouldn't try it with out the rubber bumpers then u can feel the shaft play

 

[LouDoo]

You need to align the engine to the pump. To do this you will need an alignment tool. You can buy one from SBT of Watercraft Super store, free shipping from WCS.

Lou

 

[Chips]

did you use the same impeller from the plastic pump was it a bigger hub on the plastic pump

I checked the new pump against the old one and they are identical in size and have the same inner hub (if thats what you were referring to)..sorry, I thought you meant the entire depth of the outer aspect of the pump. I had a 1999 Speedster SK that blew a pump as well, and that one has a larger inner hub.

So I read another thread and the people were saying when the pump is bolted to the hull, the pump shaft should have in and out play...that's why some cones have that spring thing on the inside of the tip... So mine has zero play. Either my entire engine is too far rearward...or my new pump is just off and needs to be shimmed at the hull? What do you think?

 

[Chips]

You need to align the engine to the pump. To do this you will need an alignment tool. You can buy one from SBT of Watercraft Super store, free shipping from WCS.

Lou

Hi Lou, I do have the tool and used it to align the engine. Maybe I missed something, but can you also attach the pump over the tool to align both at the same time?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I'm guessing here but.... Maybe you can solve this by loosening the engine mounts and allowing the engine to move forward? That's what I would consider. Then remove pump and reconfirm alignment, adjust as necessary.

I guess either these two pumps may require a different length drive shaft, or the engine is just slightly too far aft.

 

[Chips]

I'm guessing here but.... Maybe you can solve this by loosening the engine mounts and allowing the engine to move forward? That's what I would consider. Then remove pump and reconfirm alignment, adjust as necessary.

I guess either these two pumps may require a different length drive shaft, or the engine is just slightly too far aft.

I actually did that exactly just a few minutes ago... I loosened all the mounts...removed all the shims I added and then physically moved the engine around with the alignment tool attached...and the motor is perfectly aligned with no shims...just like it was before I went and rebuilt the engine... Evidently when I dropped the motor in after the rebuild I just sat it down at a slightly off angle and tighten the bolts down and expected it to be lined up the same way.

Now I am going to re-install the pump and see if that change in motor position fixed things. One mount had 4 shims in it, so I bet the shaft was binding... Update in about 30. I need to make a gin n tonic.

 

[Chips]

So I bolted the pump on now that I have the engine placed correctly into position and the PTO/shaft is about 80% easier to move....so clearly the shimming and poor engine alignment was most of the issue. That said, with everything tightened down, the PTO is still sort of hard to turn over...compared to my other engine; and compared to the shaft and pump being removed.

So, should I shim the pump to create more space?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

So I bolted the pump on now that I have the engine placed correctly into position and the PTO/shaft is about 80% easier to move....so clearly the shimming and poor engine alignment was most of the issue. That said, with everything tightened down, the PTO is still sort of hard to turn over...compared to my other engine; and compared to the shaft and pump being removed.

So, should I shim the pump to create more space?

If you were to loosen the engine mount bolts with the pump installed and maybe "jiggle" the engine slightly then retighten the bolts, does this reduce the friction any? Of course I would also reconfirm alignment after retightening the bolts, using the alignment tool.

Sounds like you're getting closer.

 

[Chips]

If you were to loosen the engine mount bolts with the pump installed and maybe "jiggle" the engine slightly then retighten the bolts, does this reduce the friction any? Of course I would also reconfirm alignment after retightening the bolts, using the alignment tool.

Sounds like you're getting closer.

I think this is a good idea. I actually was in the middle of going further with things when our power went out here in Scottsdale. Luckily I am a "prepper" and have a few extra generators handy...but I am going to dig into this tomorrow. I like you idea of pushing the motor back with the force of the secured pump and me...but it still seems odd its doing this at all... For now though, its gin n tonics and some down time with the wife for the evening.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

LOL, if it's not one thing it's another, right? Hopefully it's not cold there.

Alignment can be somewhat elusive because not only does the centerline of the crankshaft have to be aligned parallel with the centerline of the drive shaft but if the engine is too far aft then the driveshaft pushes the crankshaft forward against/into the engine bearings. I'd be happy if it rolled over smooth with the spark plugs removed (so you can roll it over full revolutions by hand), then go back and give it a final check using the tool.

Honestly, I'm kinda wondering if there isn't something wrong with the tool, LOL.......

I'm sure you'll get it, I agree, take a break.

 

[Chips]

LOL, if it's not one thing it's another, right? Hopefully it's not cold there.

Alignment can be somewhat elusive because not only does the centerline of the crankshaft have to be aligned parallel with the centerline of the drive shaft but if the engine is too far aft then the driveshaft pushes the crankshaft forward against/into the engine bearings. I'd be happy if it rolled over smooth with the spark plugs removed (so you can roll it over full revolutions by hand), then go back and give it a final check using the tool.

Honestly, I'm kinda wondering if there isn't something wrong with the tool, LOL.......

I'm sure you'll get it, I agree, take a break.

Well I was able to get the pump and engine all set and it all spins free just fine. In the process of this rebuild and in an attempt to figure out a fuel issue...I had removed the fuel petcocks from the hull and pulled those hoses to the engine bay. Well, let me tell you thats a SOB to get back into those little holes in the hull. Anyway, after I got those in...I had been trickle charging the battery the entire time. I go to fire up the engines and the DESS key isnt beeping like it should when I put the key in. There is a faint attempt at a double beep indicating the key going on the post...and all the electronics work and both engines fire right up...but the beeps are nearly flat-lined.

I have never had an issue with the beeper on this boat until now. Since its trying, and not totally dead...what are the thoughts here? In the process of pulling the fuel lines back through the hull maybe I dislodged a wire? But if so, why would it still "try" to beep?

And, where is the beeper actually located? Maybe it just coincidentally died....? Oh lord...these boats are brutal..but for some reason I like them and sorta like working on them. I am a glutton for punishment.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Yeah, she's testing your patience. When no means yes, that's a good sign she actually loves you!

Concerning the buzzer, those are glued in up under the helm using a polyurethane adhesive such as 3M's 4200 fast cure or 5200 permanent, probably accessible from the storage compartment. Glue the new one in next to the original. They are fickle little devils and it's possible it might not like too high of a voltage. So try disconnecting the charger and let the battery rest and soak, the voltage will drop some. You should see right at 12.5~12.8 volts on those battery terminals after about 24 hours resting, anything less than 12.5 volts is indicative your battery needs charging or is on it's way out.

Incidentally, a great number of batteries I see which live short lives tend to receive too much love from their owners attempting to keep them topped up (typically low quality manual chargers). As you probably know, there are several different strategies(fortunately all automatic) used which are tailored specifically to battery construction and chemistry:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

 

[Chips]

Yeah, she's testing your patience. When no means yes, that's a good sign she actually loves you!

Concerning the buzzer, those are glued in up under the helm using a polyurethane adhesive such as 3M's 4200 fast cure or 5200 permanent, probably accessible from the storage compartment. Glue the new one in next to the original. They are fickle little devils and it's possible it might not like too high of a voltage. So try disconnecting the charger and let the battery rest and soak, the voltage will drop some. You should see right at 12.5~12.8 volts on those battery terminals after about 24 hours resting, anything less than 12.5 volts is indicative your battery needs charging or is on it's way out.

Incidentally, a great number of batteries I see which live short lives tend to receive too much love from their owners attempting to keep them topped up (typically low quality manual chargers). As you probably know, there are several different strategies(fortunately all automatic) used which are tailored specifically to battery construction and chemistry:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

Thanks for all the info. This battery has been surprisingly reliable and durable. Its the same one that's been in the boat when I bought it, about 4yrs ago. The previous owner installed a disconnect over by the battery and I always use it (for some reason he turned the stock disconnect into a stereo kill switch...which I sorta like actually)..anyway, that battery has never died on me and I have only trickle charged it maybe 5 times since I have had the boat. And now that I think about it, I went to fire up the engines and put the key on and it wouldn't beep like normal, so I assumed the battery was dead...it probably wasn't. I didn't even try to turn it over at that point since it didn't beep and I thought it was dead. I bet it was fine.

So now, where do I pick up a "beeper" on a Sunday morning before I go to the lake and test the boat out? Just get something from an automotive store or what? I have read a few posts here talking about Radio Shack ones? What exactly are they called and how should I go about wiring it up?

Thank you SO much for all the help.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Radio Shack part number: 273-068

I have a note written here for radio shack part number 273-068, maybe you can pick one of these up. The purple with tan stripe wire will be connected to the positive terminal, tan wire with black stripe is the negative.

The original beeper may actually be mounted in a bracket, I'm unsure, maybe you can tie it there using a tie-wrap?

I'd solder them and use heat shrink tubing over the connections, or in a pinch you could use some red crimp type butt connectors to make the connections waterproof crimp type are good if they have them.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Looks like this buzzer has three terminals, I believe you would use the POSitive and CONSNT terminals.

Also look underneath the helm, apparently some of the buzzers were mounted there.

 

[Chips]

Looks like this buzzer has three terminals, I believe you would use the POSitive and CONSNT terminals.

Also look underneath the helm, apparently some of the buzzers were mounted there.

Thanks for all the help with this SO FAR. =) I got the buzzer from Radio Shack...installed it and it works fine...not quite as loud as the stock one but works great... Now, on to the rest... (I will likely make a new post since it will be more relevant, but you seem to know what to look for so I want to take advantage of you while you are eye balling this thread) So THANK YOU in advance...

We took the boat out today for the first time since I rebuilt the port engine, installed the new bronze pump, new wear rings on both pumps, fresh carbon seals and bellows. My DESS key has always given me crap. At least I think its the problem... Today, I launched the boat...idled it out of the wake zone and proceeded to go back and forth just beyond the wake zone to make sure the boat wasnt going to leave me stranded. It ran great for about 15-20 mins of this....idled into the dock area and picked up the wife....went back out and about 5 minutes into our ride just outside the no wake zone, the engines both cut. I touch the DESS key and it gives me the two beeps and seems like it just came off its connection. I fire it back up and it proceeds to run and then die after a few seconds. Each time I go to touch the DESS/Key and it beeps twice after I wiggle it a little while still on the post (without me removing the key). However, several times I had to remove the key altogether, wait a few seconds and then put it back on.

So, does this sound like a DESS issue or is this a fuel supply issue? Meaning, can a fuel issue tell the computer to cut the ignition/power supply, and mimic a key coming off the post? Or is that not possible? I have found that nearly anything is possible with these boats. This boat has always done this, sometimes just once for an entire day and other times like this...but this time was the worst. I had to start and stop my way to the dock about 30 times...it was ridiculous. But, I did give some of the shore side campers a show. :thumbsup::willy_nilly:

 

[jhjesse]

Sounds like you need to replace the dess post. It is loosing connection.
No need to reprogram the lanyard after replacing, as the mpem recognizes the chip in the lanyard.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Thanks for all the help with this SO FAR. =) I got the buzzer from Radio Shack...installed it and it works fine...not quite as loud as the stock one but works great... Now, on to the rest... (I will likely make a new post since it will be more relevant, but you seem to know what to look for so I want to take advantage of you while you are eye balling this thread) So THANK YOU in advance...

We took the boat out today for the first time since I rebuilt the port engine, installed the new bronze pump, new wear rings on both pumps, fresh carbon seals and bellows. My DESS key has always given me crap. At least I think its the problem... Today, I launched the boat...idled it out of the wake zone and proceeded to go back and forth just beyond the wake zone to make sure the boat wasnt going to leave me stranded. It ran great for about 15-20 mins of this....idled into the dock area and picked up the wife....went back out and about 5 minutes into our ride just outside the no wake zone, the engines both cut. I touch the DESS key and it gives me the two beeps and seems like it just came off its connection. I fire it back up and it proceeds to run and then die after a few seconds. Each time I go to touch the DESS/Key and it beeps twice after I wiggle it a little while still on the post (without me removing the key). However, several times I had to remove the key altogether, wait a few seconds and then put it back on.

So, does this sound like a DESS issue or is this a fuel supply issue? Meaning, can a fuel issue tell the computer to cut the ignition/power supply, and mimic a key coming off the post? Or is that not possible? I have found that nearly anything is possible with these boats. This boat has always done this, sometimes just once for an entire day and other times like this...but this time was the worst. I had to start and stop my way to the dock about 30 times...it was ridiculous. But, I did give some of the shore side campers a show. :thumbsup::willy_nilly:

Sounds like you lost spark ignition on both at the same instant. Both engines quitting in the same exact instant leads me to believe the ignition coils stopped firing for whatever reason, the MPEM is responsible for firing the coils based on the electrical input it receives from the various sensors, such as the DESS post, which is common to both engines. I think you have separate start buttons so a problem there is less likely, I'd be looking for something electrical and common to both engines. DESS is the likely suspect, or possibly a lose connector somewhere that's common to both engines. Those DESS posts have a magnetic switch inside them and a magnet in the lanyard that pulls the magnetic switch closed. Once that switch closes, the MPEM reads the code from the chip and compares it to the programmed value then decides if you get to have a day(or moment, as the case may be) on the water.

 

[jhjesse]

Sounds like you lost spark ignition on both at the same instant. Both engines quitting in the same exact instant leads me to believe the ignition coils stopped firing for whatever reason, the MPEM is responsible for firing the coils based on the electrical input it receives from the various sensors, such as the DESS post, which is common to both engines. I think you have separate start buttons so a problem there is less likely, I'd be looking for something electrical and common to both engines. DESS is the likely suspect, or possibly a lose connector somewhere that's common to both engines. Those DESS posts have a magnetic switch inside them and a magnet in the lanyard that pulls the magnetic switch closed. Once that switch closes, the MPEM reads the code from the chip and compares it to the programmed value then decides if you get to have a day(or moment, as the case may be) on the water.

wow!!!
http://fiche.seadoowarehouse.com/se...&a=182&b=11&c=0&d=-ELECTRICAL---ACCESSORIES-1

Part #19

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

wow!!!
http://fiche.seadoowarehouse.com/se...&a=182&b=11&c=0&d=-ELECTRICAL---ACCESSORIES-1

Part #19

Makes me think in these terms assuming the DESS post is the issue, it appears with a rig like this you could use a non-magnetic lanyard switch from any other application, or any other type of switch, for that matter, b/c the coded chip is permanently hard wired into the harness and no longer integrated into the goofy lanyard:

http://www.seadoosource.com/dessadapter.html

 

[jclack]

I melted a plastic pump on my 97 Speedster and got a brass pump to replace it. I installed a new wear ring and made sure the thrust washer and bearing did not pinch... the impeller spins freely in pump when not attached to hull (outside of it catching a bit of the wear ring at one spot..).

When I mount it to the hull and its tight, I cannot spin the PTO by hand...its basically locked. If I loosen the nuts on the pump a little, the PTO will spin.

I used the engine alignment tool for for the motor mounts and got it nearly perfect. Since this is a new to me and boat pump, is it possible the pump needs to be shimmed to loosen up the tension front to back on the pump to engine, or is there something I am missing?

Also, when the pump is bolted tight to the hull and the plastic cone on the end of the pump is off, revealing the end of the pump shaft...it is set into place...no in and out free play like when its off the hull. When the pump is bolted to the hull, should there still be that slight free play in and out with the pump shaft?
Thanks for any help!

I'm also having this problem w/ one of my pumps, but I didn't do anything to the engine. It was rebuilt and after I reinstalled according to specs (torqued to 33 N-m), I can't rotate it (plugs out) with both hands. I was very careful about the rubber driveshaft bumper and I know I didn't loose any shims. What's going on?

Jim