Water on RAVE valves 947

[Boyd12]

I have a 947 carbed engine that I just rebuilt and there is some water on the RAVE valves. I did a leak down test after I rebuilt and yesterday, and it passed both times. I had a leaking water regulator on the muffler and replaced it with a used one, and it appears this leak started after replacing the regulator. I think that may be a coincidence as I don't think the regulator could cause this.
When I removed the head pipe for the leak-down test, the pipe to exhaust manifold gasket was sealing.
Could it be the head pipe itself has a leak? Any ideas?
The image on the right was the result of only a couple minutes or test riding.

 

[etemplet]

My 951 had water on the spark plugs the day after I rode it but in South Louisiana the air is always humid. As the engine cools the moist (saturated air) is drawn into the engine and I believe it subliminates just like the dew on the grass in the morning. Good REason to fog these damn things after every day's riding. I'm not positive about this but, Like you, I know mine isn't leaking. Good Luck !!

 

[mikidymac]

It's a 951 thing so fog after every use.

 

[etemplet]

It's a 951 thing so fog after every use.

Amen !!

 

[Boyd12]

The image on the left is after about 10 minutes of run time, the one on the right is after 3 minutes. Both RAVE valves were removed immediately after the engine was shut off and I live in a very dry climate. I dont think its a fogging issue. I dont want to find out the hard way this thing has an issue!

 

[Poormanracing]

They always have a little moisture in the raves.these do not run hot enuff to keep the exhaust side dry.been like that since they came out.and condensation also builds up on rave solenoid lines also.your not steam cleaning the valves themselves so I don't see a problem.

 

[Boyd12]

 

[Boyd12]

I finally had time to spend on this. I rode it for about 5-7 minutes and removed the RAVE valves to check for water and there is a lot of water on them. I removed the head and noticed the bulge in the head gasket because they put the white sealer (white arrow) in to fill in the gap. I removed the gasket and there is a area on the head that is recessed .003 (see red circle).
Is this head any good? If you look at the head before milling, it was sealing. It has been milled already and I dont know if it can be milled again. It is one thing to have a head that, over its entire length, is warped .003 and another to have this.
Thanks!

 

[Poormanracing]

Can go a another cut and check the squish when done.run good gas so it doesn't det.and you can raise the cyl by running a thicker base gasket but another 4 thou won't change a crazy amount

 

[Poormanracing]

Can go a another cut and check the squish when done.run good gas so it doesn't det.and you can raise the cyl by running a thicker base gasket but another 4 thou won't change a crazy amount

 

[MTEC]

Hello

My head is the same although it has not been machined yet. The recess is about 0.0015 inch . I was not sure if it needed to come off... Guess I'll have to machine it. The stock squish is at max tolerance so I have room.
BTW I noticed some hoses connected to the dome close to the spark plugs. What are they?
Antoine

 

[Boyd12]

Hello

My head is the same although it has not been machined yet. The recess is about 0.0015 inch . I was not sure if it needed to come off... Guess I'll have to machine it. The stock squish is at max tolerance so I have room.
BTW I noticed some hoses connected to the dome close to the spark plugs. What are they?
Antoine

 

[Boyd12]

Group K did the work (they RUINED the head by the way) This is what they have on their website.
"Included in our head modification is a cooling system upgrade. The stock 951 head casting can “land lock” air pockets in the water jacketing around the combustion chambers. If this air pocketing happens during high-speed operation (on a modified motor), it can cause localized over heating that can easily lead to detonation. Our cooling upgrade completely eliminates this air pocketing."

"(Please note that our technicians are not permitted to discuss the specification information of our cylinder head modifications or cooling upgrades)." This must be because it is sooo technical! lol!

 

[Boyd12]

FYI, I have done more work and the head does NOT seal, it is junk. Group K did the work and installed it. They should get the credit.

 

[Boyd12]

I have another cylinder head that needs milling. Anyone know of a good machine shop in the Northern Hemisphere?

 

[mikidymac]

I have another cylinder head that needs milling. Anyone know of a good machine shop in the Northern Hemisphere?

There's really no way to get that one spot low and they do lap their heads. I would give Group K a call.

The white sealant isn't because they did anything wrong, it is 1211 and pretty much all the performance guys run it on the head gaskets.

 

[etemplet]

Perhaps the shop just didn't take enough off the head in the first place. I think if you sent it back they'd remachine it for free. Any shop is gonna have "come-back" jobs. Good ones stand behind their work and make you glad you went with them. I hear a lot of Good Things about Group K.

 

[1of500]

Pressure test upon reinstalling

 

[Boyd12]

There's really no way to get that one spot low and they do lap their heads. I would give Group K a call.

The white sealant isn't because they did anything wrong, it is 1211 and pretty much all the performance guys run it on the head gaskets.

The left and center photos are before they worked on it and after. It appears the head has no indentation, until after they worked on it. They inspected it after they machined and installed the head on my engine. How the indentation happened is a mystery. The photo on the right shows a bulge in the head gasket. That was caused by an excessive amount white sealant placed in exactly the right place, right where the indentation is located. I removed the bulging head gasket and installed a new one. It blew in about 15 seconds.
It appears they noticed the indentation which is why the sealant is where it is. They installed the head and gave me the engine back as ready to run.
Also, when I first noticed water on the RAVE valves, I checked the torque on the head bolts, something I should have done when I got the engine back, but I didnt because I trusted them. Three bolts were no where near the torque spec, the center head bolt was slightly more than hand tight. There are other issues that I wont elaborate on but I am very sorry I did business with them.
Thank you for your input, I value your opinion very much!

 

[Boyd12]

Perhaps the shop just didn't take enough off the head in the first place. I think if you sent it back they'd remachine it for free. Any shop is gonna have "come-back" jobs. Good ones stand behind their work and make you glad you went with them. I hear a lot of Good Things about Group K.

"Perhaps the shop just didn't take enough off the head in the first place." I agree. I dont know if there is enough metal left to machine it further. They should have kept machining it and if it is not in spec, they should have told me it isnt any good and I would have given them another one. They didnt do that.
"I think if you sent it back they'd remachine it for free."
"Any shop is gonna have "come-back" jobs." True, but this is a bad one. They noticed the problem, put a bunch of sealant on it and gave it back to me as ready to run.
"Good ones stand behind their work and make you glad you went with them." Yes. I am looking forward to meeting one someday!
"I hear a lot of Good Things about Group K." I did too.
Also, when I first noticed water on the RAVE valves, I checked the torque on the head bolts, something I should have done when I got the engine back, but I didnt because I trusted them. Three bolts were no where near the torque spec, the center head bolt was slightly more than hand tight. There are other issues that I wont elaborate on but I am very sorry I did business with them.
Thank you for your input, I value your opinion very much!

 

[etemplet]

Was it group K that did the full engine or just the head??
Whoever did the install that is pitiful workmanship. I torque at least 3 rounds and then again later but I"m anal. LOL

I'm with you, when I get an engine back I don't retorque anything, perhaps I should. I got one engine and checked the rotary valve timing and I didn't like it. I was able to get it closer to spec. I don't like the timing on the fringe.

One thing though you now know the problem so you can fix it. Good Luck !!

 

[Boyd12]

Was it group K that did the full engine or just the head??
Whoever did the install that is pitiful workmanship. I torque at least 3 rounds and then again later but I"m anal. LOL

I'm with you, when I get an engine back I don't retorque anything, perhaps I should. I got one engine and checked the rotary valve timing and I didn't like it. I was able to get it closer to spec. I don't like the timing on the fringe.

One thing though you now know the problem so you can fix it. Good Luck !!

"Was it group K that did the full engine or just the head??" They milled the head and did their "Sleeper" treatment. "Comatose" would probably be more accurate! It leaked at the head so I took them the engine to see why. They installed the cylinders and the head.
"Whoever did the install that is pitiful workmanship." Amen!
"I torque at least 3 rounds and then again later but I"m anal. LOL" Being anal saves a TON of time and money!
"I'm with you, when I get an engine back I don't retorque anything, perhaps I should." I usually would check something like that but I didnt. Lesson learned!
Thanks!

 

[Boyd12]

If anyone knows of a good machine shop that can possibly fix this head, please let me know!

 

[mikidymac]

Have you tried calling Group K about the head?

Been using them for 30 years without a single issue. They are one of the best out there and always answer their phone. Why not give them a chance to make it right?

 

[Boyd12]

There's really no way to get that one spot low and they do lap their heads. I would give Group K a call.

The white sealant isn't because they did anything wrong, it is 1211 and pretty much all the performance guys run it on the head gaskets.

There is a low spot in it. I have no idea how it got there as does not appear to be there before the milling was done. But even if it was there before the milling, they should have milled it further. If the head is out of spec, they should have told me and I would have sent them another one.

They said they use the 1211 on head gaskets but that is not the issue. Extra white sealant was added to the point that it made a bulge in the head gasket. This was done exactly where the low spot is located. It appears they knew it had an issue and installed it any way.