Time to rebuild Challenger 1800 or to sell ?

[alexd51]

First of all Thank you guys for all the help in the past couple months since i acquired this boat, or should i say right now this headache .
When i got the boat it was sitting for what the Original owner said a couple of months. Boat started fine but the gas had been sitting in the tank for a while so to not mess up the carbs more than they might be i started both motors but only ran for less than a minute.
When i got the boat and started to work on it, flushed the fuel and oil tank,changed fuel and oil filters . Oil lines fuel sender unit and was working on an oil leak there was on the side of the motor from what looks like a metal seal that is in a real PITA place to fix unless i remove the motor.
Well while i decided what to do with that seal, either take out the motor or JB weld the hell out of it i decided to take the RAVE valves out because so far all the info the PO has told me is pretty much a bag of lies. Well,Well surprise surprise valves not only look like they have never been taken out but one of them is stuck in there that it will not move only 1/4 inch up and down but not come completely out so my recent post of a stuck valve.

Now thinking of all this i start looking thru all the paperwork i was given when i got the boat receipt for a battery,fuel filter changes and one for the starboard motor being replaced with a SBT on Feb/2013 ???? i Guess PO forgot to mention that well guess where is the RAVE valve stuck? in the starboard motor of course.

So to summarize, i have spent plenty of hours working on this boat just so i can take it out for a spin, the more i fix the more breaks or find that needs replacement. PO lied from the moment he said hello so now whatever i don't see any receipts for im going to assume it came with the boat in 1997.

Now what i think my options are is....
1. Take both motors out and get 2 SBT or send them to get rebuild.
2. Stop where im at put all back in and put it on Craigslist and let someone with more experience deal with it.
3. Swap it for a smaller boat or even a ski.
4. Part it out and have parts sitting around for the next couple of years.

I dont mind getting dirty but i know how to do small stuff i have never taken a whole motor apart ,just oil changes,spark plugs,brakes,alternators and water pumps and as far as replacing a head gasket on a old toyota because it was marking its territory and the oil was costing me an arm and a leg every week lol. Plus i don't have the special tools needed for a project this big or the friends with the know how either. I would love to do it myself, it would feel great knowing that the boat is running because i did all the work but without an expert close by that i can pick his brains every now and then well.... You get my dilemma
So suggestions ????
So far i know i can send the cores to http://www.seadooengineshop.com $799 ea with core exchange not sure about the shipping.
There is a local place here in Kissimmee $845 ec engine.
If i replace the motors i would rather stay local unless there is a really good deal that does not cost me more than the $845 local.

Again thanks again for all the help in the past and hope the future.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

1) Make sure the warranty hasn't expired on the one replaced by sbt, the premiums have a 2 year warranty. (its probably a standard engine, 1 year but it takes 2 minutes on the phone to SBT to run the engine serial number through)

2) I wouldn't dump two 'good' engines for two new unless you are of the opinion that they are "not good" i'd run them till they drop then you know for sure they are "not good" then replace them. but that's just me... i'm a cheap azz, and 787's generally don't implode and destroy cases like 951's so there isn't much real risk....

as far as dumping it, parting it, etc... depends on what you have invested.... if you bought it right, then you can get out right and break even, if you paid too much, they only way to break even is a part out. depending on what your asking, hell I might be interested and i'm only 3 hours away.

part outs can be a pain, especially on boats, I STILL have parts left over from my challenger part out in 2013, I STILL have parts left over from a speedster part out in 2014, and probably will still have some this time in 2015, it takes a while. I currently have a Ten 27 gallon crates full of parts in my garage and I just bought 3 more crates, they were on sale I tend to hoard parts from October to April, then sell in April-september, so I'll go from 12 crates down to 4 or so by the end of the season, then start stocking up again.

so for starters,,, how much bling have you invested at this point ?

 

[alexd51]

Ok let me start at the beginning. I swapped a 2003 Yamaha Vstar 1100 not running because carbs were dirty and needed tires KBB price was around the $3100.
It was an even exchange bike for boat.
Miscellaneous parts im guessing around $300 So lets say about $3500 total invested.

The part about the motors is , all the original owner has told me has been lies so except for this motor with the stuck rave valve in it im sure almost nothing has been done to this boat except for whatever broke he fixed just to keep it running but not even regular maintenance. pretty sure he is one of those that if its not broke why fix it if its still running .

 

[Spimothy Leary]

well, with 3500 into it, your pretty screwed as far as breaking even....

although if cleaned up and running I believe you can push 3500-4200 range on a sale.

when it comes to the engines, there really isn't much that needed to be done as far as maintenance, good oil and the occasional fogging... if they turn over and have compression, they might be a risky bet to run for long but i've seen abused engines run forever...

your probably better off selling it complete (and running, even if running poorly), but good luck getting a great offer, you'll get a lot of 1,000 offer's for sure unless its very clean, has good seats/mats, and a least idles on the trailer, then you'll get offers over 2K working their way up to 3K

re: parting out, The MPEM has excellent value... Engines IMO are about 30-40% of retail value and various hull parts can go for decent cash but as stated before they sell slow, and some parts like the hatch and such are near impossible to ship, I usually let them go with the hull. pump parts have value, harness, electronics, as well but sell extremely slow.

trust me I know from experience if you start a part out your garage will look like a boat bomb went off, buy some 27gal crates from home depot and start filling them (throw a couple of boards down in the attic for pipes and pumps helps too) take off everything bolted down then take the hull to the dump for $45.... sell the trailer for $300 ish...

All in all, in parts you can probably fetch just over 2K to 2.5K (this is guesswork) for everything, with the vast majority of the value in the MPEM, Pumps, electronics, and two used engines, and the rest are nickle and dime stuff, $20 here $30 there.

 

[racerxxx]

Ok let me start at the beginning. I swapped a 2003 Yamaha Vstar 1100 not running because carbs were dirty and needed tires KBB price was around the $3100.
It was an even exchange bike for boat.
Miscellaneous parts im guessing around $300 So lets say about $3500 total invested.

The part about the motors is , all the original owner has told me has been lies so except for this motor with the stuck rave valve in it im sure almost nothing has been done to this boat except for whatever broke he fixed just to keep it running but not even regular maintenance. pretty sure he is one of those that if its not broke why fix it if its still running .

Did you buy the Vstar used and if so what did you ACTUALLY pay for the Vstar, not KBB.

Wish I lived closer, I did a 99 challenger repower for 1/2 what that cat was charged for one engine install. And I did WAY more

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?61486-Big-thanks!

 

[alexd51]

Did you buy the Vstar used and if so what did you ACTUALLY pay for the Vstar, not KBB.

Wish I lived closer, I did a 99 challenger repower for 1/2 what that cat was charged for one engine install. And I did WAY more

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?61486-Big-thanks!

I bought the Vstar used in 2009 for $3000 , only did regular maintenance and bought a new battery and had the same stock tires.
I only put on the bike less than 2000 miles in the years i had it at the end it had about 8000 miles total but the carbs needed rebuild because the gas shut valve was leaking last winter and gas passed into the carbs and dried and gunked the carbs big time lol

 

[racerxxx]

So, let's just be fair and say you both got over on each other, LOL. I'd guess in all reality it wasn't worth the $3100. My neighbor bought one (forget the year) about 4 years ago for $5000 and it was mint, and rides it just about everyday.....to the bar. Which ended his last cycle.

 

[jhjesse]

You are going to loose if you are thinking only in money. As with just about any hobby they cost money that is never recovered. For me it is not about the money, but the adventure. It is about the fun of wrenching/tinkering followed by fun on the water, as well as, the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself.
If you choose to keep the boat there are plenty of people on this forum that will be more that happy guide you through it.

I own a 99 Challenger 1800 and have put a lot of work into it. These boats are a blast. You can pull skiers, tubes, cruise, jump waves etc., but at a cost. To me the fun of both tinkering and actual boating far outweigh the cost.

I really love pulling my grandkids around the lake on the tube, but when my kids get on the tube they are coming off. :reddevil: I just love that.

 

[alexd51]

You are going to loose if you are thinking only in money. As with just about any hobby they cost money that is never recovered. For me it is not about the money, but the adventure. It is about the fun of wrenching/tinkering followed by fun on the water, as well as, the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself.
If you choose to keep the boat there are plenty of people on this forum that will be more that happy guide you through it.

I own a 99 Challenger 1800 and have put a lot of work into it. These boats are a blast. You can pull skiers, tubes, cruise, jump waves etc., but at a cost. To me the fun of both tinkering and actual boating far outweigh the cost.

I really love pulling my grandkids around the lake on the tube, but when my kids get on the tube they are coming off. :reddevil: I just love that.

I know all too well about a hobby, before the boat it was my bike and all the "I need to have this for the bike" but all my ridding friends got married or moved out of state sold there bikes because of the wife and so on then the bike just became something to go around in the garage. I love ridding but i drive a truck for a living and driving my bike on my time off was not helping me unwind like it should but i knew a boat would because of my past experience with a kayak.

I definitely know about the satisfaction of looking at something and knowing it exists or its running because i did that, and that feeling is awesome. I love working on the boat and the guys in here have been great helping me out. I have spent days reading all i can find concerning my boat my only problem is not having any close friends that have any experience with this hobby.

Enough of my whining , i will keep tinkering with the boat. What is the worst that can happen ? that i screw up something? well theres always SBT for a new motor and plenty of nice people in here to answer a question or 10. It will take me some time but sooner or later i will be towing my kids on a tube.

 

[jhjesse]

OK everybody - Road trip! Going to alex51's house and get his boat running. Alex will provide plenty of beer and warm weather...just kidding!

Seriously, just ask the 10 questions someone will help. If you haven't already downloaded a shop manual, I highly recommend it. Good luck.

 

[alexd51]

OK everybody - Road trip! Going to alex51's house and get his boat running. Alex will provide plenty of beer and warm weather...just kidding!

Seriously, just ask the 10 questions someone will help. If you haven't already downloaded a shop manual, I highly recommend it. Good luck.

There will be more beer for you because i don't drink lol You come all the way down here ill let you have the master bedroom. LOL

Shop manual and owners manual i have both , digital and hard copy. But i have to say , the way they wrote some of the stuff in this darned manual is confusing as heck.

Another member Spimothy Leary put me in contact with yet another forum member close to Orlando,FL and i just emailed him lets see what comes of it.
Right now i just need someone with experience with these boats to just take a look of it and just tell me the truth, junk it or fix it. Why not take it to a shop? well they just want the business so no mater if its junk or not they still will like to put there hands in it and in my wallet. More my wallet.lol

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

Man I feel for you! I just went through the same mess your going through last winter but jhjesse is right its all about having fun and leaning a new hobby but one advantage you have is the help of everyone on this site I couldn't have done my speedster project without the help and encouragement of everyone here that said dig in and get ready for a wild ride I'm a toolmaker by trade so I have some general knowledge on engineering and mechanics but no experience wrenching on boats or skis prior to buying my boat but if you can read a manual and follow directions your good to go if I were you since you have already put time and money in I would just take your time and fix it you might find yourself loving it and become a Seadoo junkie! I'm hooked, I had so much fun restoring my speedster that I decided to restore an early model xp this winter so far so good almost done anyway hang in there bud and good luck on whatever you decide to do!


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[alexd51]

Man I feel for you! I just went through the same mess your going through last winter but jhjesse is right its all about having fun and leaning a new hobby but one advantage you have is the help of everyone on this site I couldn't have done my speedster project without the help and encouragement of everyone here that said dig in and get ready for a wild ride I'm a toolmaker by trade so I have some general knowledge on engineering and mechanics but no experience wrenching on boats or skis prior to buying my boat but if you can read a manual and follow directions your good to go if I were you since you have already put time and money in I would just take your time and fix it you might find yourself loving it and become a Seadoo junkie! I'm hooked, I had so much fun restoring my speedster that I decided to restore an early model xp this winter so far so good almost done anyway hang in there bud and good luck on whatever you decide to do!


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I guess the worst part for me is not been able to ride it not even once. But thinking about it what do I have to lose now except for some money and time, i like the idea of working on a small motor but i have never done it afraid of not being able to do something by myself and screwing everything up. But then again that's part of the quest right?
I'm planning on keeping it and what the hell, whats the worst that can happen. . . . In any case i will either post on the for sale section or bragging about it in the 2 stroke boat section.
BTW anybody done a 'how to remove motors' step by step?

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

Yep your situation sucks If you lived close I would definitely give you a hand. If it makes you feel any better I only had my boat out a few times before I realized both motors were trashed. But after the restore I enjoyed it all last summer.Two strokes are fairly simple to learn I would avoid taking it to a shop they will end up charging you way more than what you would end up spending on sbt remans or if rebuild yourself.

As far as engine removal goes it's really easy and outlined in you shop manual but I would start with getting some hose clamps,harbor freight has them pretty cheap and get to clamping all the fuel and oil lines then just disconnect everything including taking your jet pumps off and move your drive shafts back and take out the mounting bolts on the engine mounts try to keep the shims organized. I took the tuned pipe exhaust manifold and carbs off before I removed the motors but you could probably just leave it all on just unhook the cables hoses ect... But every boat is different.I used an engine hoist and some spark plug hooks with large washers welded on to lift the motors out

when you put everything back together make sure you buy the engine alignment tool and put them in the right way.
The only thing that sucked about this adventure is all the tools and different things you will need cost a lot but if you decide to keep on doing this hobby you will have everything you need. I'm no pro but I'm glad to help if you have any questions.


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[alexd51]

Ok how can a motor be lifted by those 2 little things? It's just amazing. Im guessing you make those right? Guess is time to get my welder out. The part about the shop is the reason i was thinking about getting rid of it but i will take the challenge. So special tools ? Engine alignment is 1 what else will i need for this new hobby im picking up?

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

Ok how can a motor be lifted by those 2 little things? It's just amazing. Im guessing you make those right? Guess is time to get my welder out. The part about the shop is the reason i was thinking about getting rid of it but i will take the challenge. So special tools ? Engine alignment is 1 what else will i need for this new hobby im picking up?

Yep you just cut off the porcelain and weld the washers on then you can hook up chains to the washers to assist in lifting with a hoist. You will also need a flywheel puller I bought this puller on eBay for $20.00

I used this one for a 97xp with a 787/800 that I parted out. For my boats 657x motors I used a harmonic balancer puller. You will also need some good otiker clamp pliers for the fuel line clamp install/uninstall

Also you will need a good impact gun with sockets that fit your pto removal tool and flywheel nut and puller. I got this pto jet pump removal tool on eBay also I think it was around $10.00

It will also be used when you remove your impeller.
Another thing that came in handy was this degree wheel used to time the rotary valve sbt had them

Other than that just torque wrenches and basic metric sockets and wrenches and some long extensions they definitely come in handy. Also I found that I used a lot of metric Alan head sockets there are awesome compared to using standard Alan wrenches because you can use a ratchet and apply torque

That should probably get you rolling hopefully you have some basic shop tools I had to start from scratch because most of the tools I bought stay at the shop at work. Hope that helps happy rebuilding!


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[alexd51]

So im way shead then, have the allen head sockets bought them a couple weeks ago to remove the exhaust. Plenty of metric wrenches . I dont like the otiker clamp thing specially for those hard to reach lines. I guess i finally have a good reason to buy an impact gun and a bigger compressor. I'll start looking for those special tools, any specific size i should look for these tools?

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

Well some of them are just motor specific such as the flywheel puller, the pto/impeller tool just goes by year/ model.
I bought this impact gun at harbor freight http://m.harborfreight.com/air-tools/impact-wrenches/12-in-professional-air-impact-wrench-68424.html you can print off a 20 percent off coupon and get it a little cheaper I'm not a huge fan of hf but some of there stuff is ok I tend to get a lot of kobalt/crafstman tools.


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[alexd51]

I have had good experience with HF for tools that are only going to be used once or twice but if im going to use it heavily then i go with craftsman, i love the warranty on them , bring them back take a new one can't beat that. Thanks for all the info I'll start my research tomorrow. BTW Merry Christmas.

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

No prob happy to help,you have a merry Christmas also.


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[racerxxx]

I've never had luck with an impact gun and removing the rear pto, even a 1" gun. Actually I never use impact guns on tear down of these engines. Whatever you do, remove the pto from the engines BEFORE you remove the engine and if you've already removed the engines do not tear the engine apart before the pto is removed. I use a breaker bar with the impeller removal tool and a cheater pipe to get the pto off. Turn the engine over so the piston is about 3/4 of the way up in stroke then fill the cylinder with clothes line thru the spark plug hole, when you can't fit anymore loosen the pto. Very easy, especially in the boat. If not you'll wrestle the engine across your garage floor. Glad you're taking the project on!

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[jhjesse]

I've never had luck with an impact gun and removing the rear pto, even a 1" gun. Actually I never use impact guns on tear down of these engines. Whatever you do, remove the pto from the engines BEFORE you remove the engine and if you've already removed the engines do not tear the engine apart before the pto is removed. I use a breaker bar with the impeller removal tool and a cheater pipe to get the pto off. Turn the engine over so the piston is about 3/4 of the way up in stroke then fill the cylinder with clothes line thru the spark plug hole, when you can't fit anymore loosen the pto. Very easy, especially in the boat. If not you'll wrestle the engine across your garage floor. Glad you're taking the project on!

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X2 on the clothes line.

I have a couple of spark plug hooks as well. They work great! I use them together with the lift hole in the exhaust manifold. Helps level out the engine while lifting.

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

I've never had luck with an impact gun and removing the rear pto, even a 1" gun. Actually I never use impact guns on tear down of these engines. Whatever you do, remove the pto from the engines BEFORE you remove the engine and if you've already removed the engines do not tear the engine apart before the pto is removed. I use a breaker bar with the impeller removal tool and a cheater pipe to get the pto off. Turn the engine over so the piston is about 3/4 of the way up in stroke then fill the cylinder with clothes line thru the spark plug hole, when you can't fit anymore loosen the pto. Very easy, especially in the boat. If not you'll wrestle the engine across your garage floor. Glad you're taking the project on!

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Sorry for the bad advise on using the impact gun on the pto In retrospect I remember having a hell of a time getting them off and strapped one of the motors to one of the machines at work using a pipe wrench and a long cheater bar. I didn't know you could take the pto off while still bolted down to mounts I guess I was just paranoid on breaking the mounts. I will definitely do that next time it will save me some hassle. I did have good luck with using the impact gun on the flywheel pullers though,tried just using a ratchet but no luck. Im still a novice at this so sorry if I posted bad advice.


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[alexd51]

So i started some research on the tools and how can a freaking compression tester is not one of those tools that pep boys rent out? Anyone have any good experience with this tool from harbor freight? Any good?

 

[Toolanddiemaker]

So i started some research on the tools and how can a freaking compression tester is not one of those tools that pep boys rent out? Anyone have any good experience with this tool from harbor freight? Any good?

Don't buy a hf compression tester they suck I had one and it was way off I ended up getting a crafstman tester at Sears and it was dead on in comparison to my friends snap on. I have also had a few buddies that weren't to happy with the hf tester. But to each his own Mabey they were just bad ones.


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