The experiment begins..........

[Dr Honda]

Hi Boy's and Girls,


OK... on my local boating chat board, (boatpittsburgh.com) we were going back and forth on RV antifreeze, and it's effectiveness if it gets diluted. My stance was, it should still work, but not as well as the proper mix. (FYI, the proper mix is 60:40, but that's how it is in the bottle since it's "Ready to use") So... the scientist in me couldn't let it go. AND... since this is good info for the seadoo guys... I thought I would reflect my findings here.


So... here's the experiment.

In the containers below, there is 475ml of fluid. The 2 end containers are our controls. 100% is right out of the bottle, and 0% is tap water. Even though, the "Bottle" of RV anti-freeze is a mix, for simplicity, we will just call it 100%. Also, I was going to use bottled water, but I figure most of us would be diluted with either water from the hose, or the rivers. Either way, it will be full of "Other" stuff, that could effect the freezing point.

Then, as you can see, there is a 75%, a 50%, and a 25%. If you guys would like to see a 10% or some other mix... I will make one.


Finally... take note, that on each container, there is a couple lines. That (more or less) marks the top level, so we can see what expansion happens as it gets cold. This is important since the RV claim is -50 Deg F. BUT... that's a burst pressure. So, I will assume it will start to gel, and expand at some given temp.


The test will be simple. In the morning (and days to come) I will check each for liquid or ice. I will report on what I find.

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-7-13

Time: 8 AM

Temp: 27.8 Deg F

100%: Liquid, no expansion
75%: Liquid, no expansion
50%: Liquid, no expansion
25%: Liquid, no expansion
0%: Liquid, no expansion

Notes: Strange observation this morning. It was below freezing for at least 10 Hrs. The containers are on a table, under my deck. The water that dripped from the deck above, and onto the table was frozen. (The containers were sitting in ice) BUT, the container with straight water had no ice in it at all. The plastic must impart more insulation than expected.


Note 2: Time: 3:30 PM; It's been below freeing all day, but there is no change. The sun obviously kept it warm enough to stop the freeze.

Note 3: Time 8:30 PM: Temp 24.5 F; The fresh water is showing ice now. It's still very liquid, but there is ice forming around the sides, and top edge.

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-8-13

Time: 10 AM

Temp: 23.8


100%: Liquid, no expansion
75%: Liquid, no expansion
50%: Liquid, no expansion
25%: Liquid, but icy. (about like a thin Slurpee) no expansion
0%: Very little Liquid. noticeable expansion. Engine block damage probable

Notes: It has been below freezing for at least 32 hrs at this point, and it was down to 21.3 Deg F overnight. The fresh water is almost frozen solid, and I can tell that there is some bulging of the container. In my opinion, even though the ice isn't solid yet, there could be enough pressure to cause issues. Possibly not a broken engine block... but the extra pressure on seals, and gaskets could cause leaks in the spring time.

Note 2: While swirling the "25%" container, to get a view of it's consistency... I noticed a few drops getting out past the lid. Because of this, the "Top level Lines" may be invalid now. BUT, if there is a solid expansion, I should be able to see it in the container walls.

Note 3: Even though there is some ice crystals forming in the 25% container, there is no way that there could be damage to your boat at this point. The MIX is simply too soft and fluid.

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-8-13

Time: 6:30 PM

Temp: 28.2 Deg F


100%: Liquid, no expansion
75%: Liquid, no expansion
50%: Liquid, no expansion
25%: Liquid, but icy. (about like a thin Slurpee) no expansion
0%: No Sign of Liquid. noticeable expansion, and the container is bulged. Engine damage is HIGHLY PROBABLE.

Notes: At this point, we have had a 48 hr freeze soak. Most of that time has been in the mid 20's As you can see above, the fresh water would now have cracked an engine block, or at least stressed it. AND, even though the 25% is slushy... there really isn't any "Solid" sections in it, that could cause damage. (IMO: it's still in the safe zone)

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-9-13

Time: 10:30 AM

Temp: 35.7 Deg F


100%: Liquid, no expansion
75%: Liquid, no expansion
50%: Liquid, no expansion
25%: Liquid, no expansion
0%: No Sign of Liquid. noticeable expansion, and the container is bulged.

Notes: We had a small thaw last night. It's only been above freezing for a few hr's, but the 25% is all liquid again. The fresh water is still solid. It's obvious that even at 25%, the anti-freeze is doing some work.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Interesting to follow your experiment...

I would assume that they mix it in such a way to allow for a buffer. In other words, they probably ASSUME the user will screw up some home and want to blame the manufacturer. So they build in protection...

Water freezing on your deck will happen sooner due to wind chill. When the wind blows over the moisture the temperature drops, thus it freezes prior to contained liquids. It has to do with evaporation..

 

[Spimothy Leary]

Interesting results, so far, subscribed.

would you like me to run a similar experiment in Fort Myers Florida ?

In all seriousness, it IS an interesting experiment, and if you get some extended freezes i'm dam curious if the 50% and up mix's hold up over time.

 

[Dr Honda]

Interesting results, so far, subscribed.

would you like me to run a similar experiment in Fort Myers Florida ?

......

Yes... Please !! I've always wondered about the phenomena of heat freeze.


Coastie: Yes... it could do with wind, evaporation, water mass in the container (you have to drop the temp of a greater mass), or that the container it self is an insulator.




Just to give you guys a little insite on why I'm doing this...


On the local board... there was a few "Old-Timers" who basically said that if you dilute the RV anti-freeze, it becomes ineffective. (almost like there is a magic mix ratio that it will only work at)

The reason it was brought up, is because one guy pumped it into his engine, without draining the block first. I said it was fine, as long as he had "Pink" coming out. Other guys said that wasn't good enough.

The thing is... in Western PA, it generally doesn't get that cold. A typical winter night is still in the teens. I think the coldest I've ever seen was a -6 overnight... but the RV anti-freeze says it's good for -50 !!!

Already... the experiment has proven the "Old-Timers" wrong. We had 2 days (48hrs) that were in the mid 20's... and even the 25% mix didn't get solid. (ie, could not have caused engine damage)

 

[Luv2Camp]

I use a refractometer to test my freeze point. Works great because you can easily determine when the solution is too diluted. The nice thing is that after I winterize my boat, I unscrew the block drain plugs slightly so a get a couple of drips of the solution that is in the block and I can test it to be certain I got the antifreeze into the block...

http://www.amazon.com/Robinair-7524...3061&sr=8-2&keywords=antifreeze+refractometer

 

[Dr Honda]

I use a refractometer to test my freeze point. Works great because you can easily determine when the solution is too diluted. The nice thing is that after I winterize my boat, I unscrew the block drain plugs slightly so a get a couple of drips of the solution that is in the block and I can test it to be certain I got the antifreeze into the block...

http://www.amazon.com/Robinair-7524...3061&sr=8-2&keywords=antifreeze+refractometer

Wellll........


A refractomerter can only tell you the % mix of the "Other" in the solution. (sugar, Oil, alcohol, etc) The ones with a temp scale aren't really calibrated, other than by experiment, and a judgment call. Also, what kind of anti-freeze was it set to?


That is exactly why the experiment came to life. If you have a refractomerter that was calibrated to Ethylene Glycol... but then test on propylene glycol.... how does it compare? (also there are a bunch of organic, inorganic, and EL types)

Then the question arises of.... if you have an indication of protection to (lets say) 10 Deg F on your refractometer... What does that mean? Is that some ice crystals? or is that a solid freeze??


And finally.......... you really can't tell when the solution is too dilute. How do you pull a sample from a Rotax Cyl?


This experiment will show us exactly what "RV" antifeeze (normally propylene glycol) does at different temps.

 

[LouDoo]

I've got a Bayliner with a 3.0 L Mercruiser Alpha One, I winterize it pretty much the way Mercruiser recommends. Using the flush adapter (rabbit ears), run the engine on the hose until the engine reaches operating temperature, this lets the thermostat open up. Then I turn off the motor connect a hose from a 5 gal. container of RV/Marine antifreeze, start the engine and let it run until pink comes of the exhaust, it takes about 4-5 gallons.

I figure I probably get about 50/50 mixture, so with -50 antifreeze I should get protection to about -25. That being said "back in the day" when I had my SeaRay, 5 L, Bravo Mercruiser, I never used antifreeze, just drained the block, per the manual, I bought the boat new, kept it for 14 years, never a problem.

I use a similar method when I winterize my ski's, except since there is no thermostat, there's no reason to get the motor to operating temperature. I just "burp" it to get most of the water out of the motor and waterbox, clamp off the drain line from the motor, then pump in the RV/Marine antifreeze and watch for the antifreeze to come out the exhaust and the pisser. Just an educated guess but I would say I'm getting a dilution rate of 75/25 so it should take it down to about -35 degrees.

Lou

 

[Luv2Camp]

I've got a Bayliner with a 3.0 L Mercruiser Alpha One, I winterize it pretty much the way Mercruiser recommends. Using the flush adapter (rabbit ears), run the engine on the hose until the engine reaches operating temperature, this lets the thermostat open up. Then I turn off the motor connect a hose from a 5 gal. container of RV/Marine antifreeze, start the engine and let it run until pink comes of the exhaust, it takes about 4-5 gallons.

I figure I probably get about 50/50 mixture, so with -50 antifreeze I should get protection to about -25. That being said "back in the day" when I had my SeaRay, 5 L, Bravo Mercruiser, I never used antifreeze, just drained the block, per the manual, I bought the boat new, kept it for 14 years, never a problem.

I use a similar method when I winterize my ski's, except since there is no thermostat, there's no reason to get the motor to operating temperature. I just "burp" it to get most of the water out of the motor and waterbox, clamp off the drain line from the motor, then pump in the RV/Marine antifreeze and watch for the antifreeze to come out the exhaust and the pisser. Just an educated guess but I would say I'm getting a dilution rate of 75/25 so it should take it down to about -35 degrees.

Lou

The only concern with doing it that way is if you are not draining the block after the thermostat opens and before you start the antifreeze.. I have a 4.3l on my Bayliner and believe it is similar to the 3.0 litre where in if the block is full of water, the water intake does not supply all of the water into the block for circulation but rather only a portion and the rest comes out of the exhaust where if the block is empty, it will divert all of the water into the block. At least that is what some of the merc heads tell me on my bayliner forum.

 

[griz400]

i can check on my picnic table , its goin down to 62 tonight .................

 

[Seadoobuddy]

I have a 4.3 L in my Galstron. I run the engine on the hose until hot. I shut it down and open all 4 petcocks and remove one end on the power steering hose for that to drain. I remove 1 end of an upper hose and pour RV AF until it comes out of the lowest petcock/drain then i repeat for the other side. I use about 1 to 1-1/2 gallons of RV AF.
This way it is not mixed except for a "tiny" bit that might not have drained out.

Lou why do you use 4-5 gallons?,.....do you keep running the motor for a bit after you see the /RV Af come out?

 

[LouDoo]

I have a 4.3 L in my Galstron. I run the engine on the hose until hot. I shut it down and open all 4 petcocks and remove one end on the power steering hose for that to drain. I remove 1 end of an upper hose and pour RV AF until it comes out of the lowest petcock/drain then i repeat for the other side. I use about 1 to 1-1/2 gallons of RV AF.
This way it is not mixed except for a "tiny" bit that might not have drained out.

Lou why do you use 4-5 gallons?,.....do you keep running the motor for a bit after you see the /RV Af come out?

Hi Tim,

No power steering on my boat.

I do it the way I do because, that's the way "The Boat Doctor" does it, his company winterizes well over 200 boats a year. And yes I probably do waste some antifreeze but RV/Marine antifreeze is relatively cheap, under $3.00 gal., so I let it run through until it comes out approximately the same color that in went in, you could probably do it with 3 gallons.

I also do it this way because it gets antifreeze into the outdrive, theoretically the outdrive should drain and not need antifreeze, but theory isn't always the same as practice.

Here's a video I found on youtube, it's pretty much the same way I do it, I even have the same kit from Overtons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYWV5O6rPP8

Lou

 

[bigJake]

I've got a Bayliner with a 3.0 L Mercruiser Alpha One, I winterize it pretty much the way Mercruiser recommends. Using the flush adapter (rabbit ears), run the engine on the hose until the engine reaches operating temperature, this lets the thermostat open up. Then I turn off the motor connect a hose from a 5 gal. container of RV/Marine antifreeze, start the engine and let it run until pink comes of the exhaust, it takes about 4-5 gallons.

I figure I probably get about 50/50 mixture, so with -50 antifreeze I should get protection to about -25. That being said "back in the day" when I had my SeaRay, 5 L, Bravo Mercruiser, I never used antifreeze, just drained the block, per the manual, I bought the boat new, kept it for 14 years, never a problem.

I use a similar method when I winterize my ski's, except since there is no thermostat, there's no reason to get the motor to operating temperature. I just "burp" it to get most of the water out of the motor and waterbox, clamp off the drain line from the motor, then pump in the RV/Marine antifreeze and watch for the antifreeze to come out the exhaust and the pisser. Just an educated guess but I would say I'm getting a dilution rate of 75/25 so it should take it down to about -35 degrees.

Lou

Lou,
I want to caution folks when using this approach to make sure the thermostat opens. I tried this approach the first year I winterized my Mercruiser, after running the engine for 30 minutes it still hadn't reached operating temp and the thermostat never opened. I only discovered this because after I ran the antifreeze through, I opened the drain plug on the bottom of the block and pure water came out. 5 gallons of antifreeze wasted... Ever since I just remove the 5 or 6 plugs from the block, drain all the water, replace the plugs, pull a hose off the thermostat housing and pour in the antifreeze.

SDB, I recommend sticking to pet dogs, cats or kudos.

Doc, the wife discovered you stole all her tupperware yet?

 

[LouDoo]

Jake,

Actually with the kit I got this year from Overton's you don't even need to stop and re-start the engine, just change the valve setting from the hose to antifreeze, pretty much instantaneous. So it shouldn't give time for the thermostat to close.

http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Yourself-Boat-Winterizer&i=81105&r=view

Lou

 

[bigJake]

Jake,

Actually with the kit I got this year from Overton's you don't even need to stop and re-start the engine, just change the valve setting from the hose to antifreeze, pretty much instantaneous. So it shouldn't give time for the thermostat to close.

http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Yourself-Boat-Winterizer&i=81105&r=view

Lou

Lou, I had a similiar kit from West Marine, but my problem was at idle the engine never got hot enough to open the thermostat.

 

[jammin777]

i had a beach craft 5.7l omc cobra, i simply opened up the block petcocks to drain and pulled the caps of the exhaust manifolds to drain all the water out then pulled every cooling hose and filled the block with rv antifreeze then filled the exhaust manifolds till it ran out the stern drive exhaust ports and took about 3 gal. done it that way for 6 seasons.

doc, thank for posting this experiment. it is nice to know the findings with different mixtures.

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-11-13

Time: 8:20 AM

Temp: 19.4 Deg F


100%: Liquid, no expansion

75%: Liquid, no expansion

50%: Liquid, Some ice no expansion

25%: Some Liquid, but icy. no expansion

0%: No Sign of Liquid. noticeable expansion, and the container is bulged. Engine damage is HIGHLY PROBABLE.

Notes: We have been below freezing again for around 60 hrs. (+2 days) Also, overnight, we got below 20 F for the first time. Needless to say, the fresh water is hard as a rock, and your engine block would have been split. The mix with 25% is mostly frozen, but the ice is in layers, and if I lightly squeeze the container, the ice breaks. It's no longer in the "Slurpee" stage, but the ice in it, is soft, and there is liquid. SO, at this point, I would say that the ice in that could not cause engine damage.

NOTE 2: The container with the 50% mix is now showing some ice crystals... but it is mostly liquid.

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

Id like to see this experiment done with regular green antifreeze as well, could be interesting to see if they differ from rv antifreeze...

 

[Dr Honda]

Id like to see this experiment done with regular green antifreeze as well, could be interesting to see if they differ from rv antifreeze...

It would be an interesting experiment. But since green is toxic, we don't use it when winterizing the skis. AND... since it's in a controlled system... the mix is easy to get right.

The reason I'm doing this, is... when winterizing some boats/skis... you can't drain out the fresh water, and the mix becomes unknown.

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-12-13

Time: 9:30 AM

Temp: 14.1 Deg F


100%: Liquid, no expansion
75%: Liquid, no expansion
50%: Some Liquid, mostly ice. no expansion. (Slurpee stage)
25%: Very little Liquid. Icy. some expansion, but no bulging of the container.
0%: No Sign of Liquid. noticeable expansion, and the container is bulged. Engine damage is HIGHLY PROBABLE.

Notes: We have been below freezing for at least 84 hrs at this point. Most of that time, it's been in the mid to upper 20's. I listed the temp this morning at 14.1 F, since that's what it was when I checked on things... but the overnight low on my table was 13.9 F.

Note 2: The container with the 25% is very frozen. There is almost no sign of liquid. BUT, the ice isn't hard. If I squeeze the container, the ice inside will fracture with light pressure. I'm sure this ice isn't good on small rubber seals (like a fresh water pump) but I'm sure this ice could not put enough pressure on a solid part to break it. (assuming there is any air space)

Note 3: The container with the 50% mix now has hit the "Slurpee" Stage. It's icy, but not solid at all.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Looking good for watered down at 50% or so.

 

[Dr Honda]

Date: 12-13-13

Time: 9:30 AM

Temp: 24.3 Deg F


100%: Liquid, no expansion
75%: Liquid, no expansion
50%: mostly Liquid, some ice. no expansion.
25%: a little Liquid. Icy. some expansion, but no bulging of the container.
0%: No Sign of Liquid. noticeable expansion, and the container is bulged. Engine damage is HIGHLY PROBABLE.

Notes: We have been below freezing for at least 108 hrs, without getting above 32 F. Since it's warmer this morning than it was yesterday, there is a notable decree in the ice amounts, in the 25% and 50% Because of that, the ice we have been seeing is a TRUE freeze, and not just from a SOAK.

Note 2: There is almost no ice in the 50% container. Just a little crust on the top edge.

Note 3: The 25% container is still frozen, and expanded. But, the ice is not hard. This is basically the same as yesterday, but now there is a lot of liquid in the mix. With this new data... I would say, that a 25% mix (starting ready mix RV) You are safe to the mid to high teens. ASSUMING there is some airspace around it in your engine. But even then... the ice isn't hard (like the 0% container) and I'm not sure it would have enough pressure to crack an engine block.

Note 4: In the next few days, we will be getting above freezing, so I won't be updating, since it would just be redundant info. The next update will happen, when we have had at least a 24 hr soak, and the temps get below 14 Deg F.