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Seized my rebuilt 787 engine, need your advice

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BoLongo

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I sold my jets skis and bought a Seadoo Challenger 1800 twin 787s. The boat was a mess; after rebuilding the carburetors with Mikuni rebuild kits (learned that lesson on my jet skis) and flushing the old TC-3 oil and switching to Mystik JT-4 and new spark plugs I headed to the lake. My compression was in the low 130s so the engines were ready for top-end rebuilds and one of the cranks was making a lot of bearing noise. Within forty-five minutes of running on the lake, I burned a hole in the exhaust side of the starboard rear cylinder. I assumed it was a crank seal; the boat had sat in a field for a couple of years. I pulled both engines; the seized engine got new pistons and a rebuilt crank with new crank seals the other engine got new crank seals, honed and new piston rings. I pressured tested both engines, put everything together and headed to the lake.

I wanted to make sure the carburetors were calibrated right; I had three sets of new spark plugs. I motored through the no wake zone varying RPMs between 1500 and 2500 for about 5 minutes; checked all the spark plugs chocolate brown coating. Let the engine cool and installed a new set of spark plugs, varying the engine RPMs between 2500 and 4000 for about five minutes, checked the spark plugs chocolate brown coating. Let the engine cool, Re-torqued the heads and installed the last set of spark plugs. I was not going to take the engine over 6000 PRMs until the engines had more time to set the rings, so I varied the RMPs between 4000 and 5800 about four minutes in the starboard engine died, I knew I had just seized another piston. I pulled the Rave Valve, and I could see some light scoring on the piston skirt. Limped the boat back to the launch ramp and pulled it apart when I got home. Piston seized on the rear starboard engine. The jug will need honing and a new set of rings, so the damage was not that bad.

Here is where I need some help. I believe I am getting a lean condition in the high-speed circuit in the starboard rear carburetor. I remember when I rebuilt the carburetors the high speed adjust screw was a turn and half out. I thought that was strange (stock setting is 0). I know I was the first to rebuild the carburetors the screws still had the factory paint. I checked the jets; they are the stock jets, and the pop off pressure was within specs.

Is it reasonable to have a carburetor that needs the high-speed adjustment screw turned out one and a half turns to operate correctly?

Is there any way that the timing could be advancing on just the rear cylinder to create the lean condition at the higher RPMs, this seems very unlikely to me, but I am searching for answers.
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Timing is controlled through the MPEM. I would be betting carb has a blocked passage somewhere. Seadoo is on the money with the settings for carbs so if someone had it turned out that far something is wrong with that carb. Look for used ones or just get some new ones. They are priced pretty good now for a new set of them.
 
Thank you, Howie.

I was thinking about replacing the carb, but I have thrown so much money at this thing that it is becoming depressing. If I knew that the carb was the problem, I would replace it. I did just order a new needle and seat; I was not getting any bubbles before the pop off, so I assumed the needle and seat were good.
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This is what I think I know; the rear cylinder is creating extreme heat at higher RPMs which is causing the rear cylinder to seize. So what could be causing that to happen?

Lean Mixture? - The high-speed passages are clear in the carburetor, and the pop off was popping at 38 lbs but not sure of the accuracy of my gauge, but all four carburetors popped off at the same pressure.

Oil pump not injecting oil into the rear cylinder? I bench tested the oil pump when I was rebuilding the motor. I did not do a volume test, but oil was alternating between the outlets at the Rotary Valve. The alignment marks line up exactly on the pump.

The cooling system? It seems to be working correctly. I can put my hand on the exhaust pipe, and it does not seem to be any hotter than the other motor.

The last issue I can think of is the timing, and I do not have the equipment to be able to check the timing at the higher RPM. The front cylinder is fine, so I would think if the timing were advancing it would also affect the front cylinder.

Anyone have any other ideas?

I'm going to install an EGT gauge on this motor before it goes back in the water.
 
Looks like the piston is riding in there crooked. This is the new piston engine correct? I would to check the bore for out of roundness around and up and down, whatever the correct term for that is.
 
Looks like the piston is riding in there crooked. This is the new piston engine correct? I would to check the bore for out of roundness around and up and down, whatever the correct term for that is.

Hey Tony,
I was just checking out your project thread "The Chronicles of the Cracken." Nice to see another chasing the Challenger dream.

This one has me frustrated. It could have been a chip of paint in my high-speed carburetor circuit. I am going to rebuild the engine and add an exhaust gas temperature gauge to the motor, so I can see the high temp before it creates any damage. It will also be a great tool for tuning the carburetors.

I have a good machine shop that I have been going to for years. I trust that they did a good job making sure the bore had the correct tolerances. I took the jug and piston back to him after the second seizure, and he checked the specs again; He was in the lower range of the spec, but he was within specs. Once he hones the jug, he will be in the higher range of the spec.

The original seizure occurred with the stock crank, stock bore, and stock piston. The second seizure happened with an STB rebuilt crank and .5 over pistons with new crank seals.

I am confident the issue is a lean fuel condition at higher RPMs. I just have not been able to pinpoint the reason. If the carburetor had an obstructed circuit, I'm confident I have cleared the obstruction.

The only thing I can do with the knowledge I have is put it back togeather with an EGT gauge and go out to the lake, but this time, I will be able to monitor the exhaust gas temperatures.

I will be following your thread; I'm looking forward to the day we can both go out and enjoy our boats without lifting the engine compartment lid. Cheers
 
Yeah man I cant wait for some lake time. DrHonda is Tony, dude knows his stuff, Im Josh. Good to see another rotax powered 1800 staying alive. A good machinest is key. I'm hopin I dont have to go back in the carbs right away but I've never messed with these carbs before. Hope you get it straight soon :cheers:
 
Just to make sure if the engine was bored you did cut the rave vales to make sure you have no interference? I would say you don't have an oil problem since I hope you mixed gas in the fuel tank also for break in. Unless the tolerances are to close if the engine was bored over. Also you could have a clogged cooling passage also if you are running hot and fuel is not the issue.
 
Yes, I did cut the Rave valve, but I think I cut too much not sure how that will effect performance.
I did add some oil to the gas tank 100:1. I read somewhere that adding too much oil could cause problems.
I just started a thread about adding an EGT gauge to a 787 motor.
 
More oil just mean more smoke and maybe foul a plug. I never fouled a plug even with injection and premix in the tank. You can just run the one engine and move the known working carbs to the problem engine. You have the external fuel pumps? Those might need replacing if you do.
 
Hi, sorry for delay, Too tight engine....you need more clearence piston wall...the engine was sized four corner.....045 mm min and wiseco 065mm
 
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