Pressure Behind Oil Cap- Oil Leak

[pwgsx]

Finally got to take the boat out yesterday to see if everything was fixed that I worked on during the winter. Other than 1 more water leak that I found all the fixes I did were good HOWEVER the same engine that kept giving me a check engine light- it would go into limp mode till I stopped, unplugged the dess key and restarted it. I hooked it up to the can-doo last year and it showed that the oil sensor or TOPS valve was bad. I replaced both sensors top and bottom and activated the TOPS valve with the dess key and can-doo and I heard it click. I did this a few more times and it seems to be working. FF till last night..............
I start the boat- 2004 Speedster 200 , twin 155 N/A engines- on the trailer in the water and am looking for leaks and letting the engines warm up. After a few mins I shut them off and I hear a hiss sound. Puzzled I look around and locate the noise coming from the port engine ( the same one that had the sensor issue or so I thought ). The noise stops. I restart it and run for a few mins, stop and I hear it again. This time I locate air and a light oil spatter escaping from the top valve cover- see pic. I unscrew the oil fill cap and it releases a ton of pressure and the hiss stops. WTF . I am at the end of my rope with patience with this dam thing. What can be causing such pressure under the oil cap in such little time ?? HELP

 

[devonte007]

It certainly sounds like you have a crankcase ventilation issue which probably has something to do with the TOPS.

In your post you mentioned that you replaced both sensors, but it wasn’t clear which ones: TOPS, OPS, or OSPS? I am no seadoo master technician but did some digging around in the shop manual and found the symptoms you describe probably have something to do with the TOPS and/or the OSPS.

Even though you can hear the TOPS clicking on/off it still may be impaired and disassembly is the only way to know for sure.

Strange you did not get an alarm or code from the trouble engine. If you have pressure build up the OSPS is responsible for triggering an alarm if it exceeds 6psi and re-energizing the TOPS, but the engine may need to run for 3-5 min (so it says) to trip this off.

View attachment Seadoo_TOPS.pdf
I attached a few pages (as a PDF file) from the manual which outlines the troubleshooting procedure. Run through this and see if it helps pin point the problem. I suspect that you probably have a faulty TOPS, but if you recently replaced this part I can’t understand why.

 

[pwgsx]

Thanks for the reply, the 2 sensors I replaced were located 1 by the rear of the engine near the driveshaft / oil filter area and the other was by the TOPS valve. Looks like they were the OPS AND OSPS sensors. I didn't want to risk running for more than 5 mins so no engine light came on. I will check the CANDOO this weekend as well to see if it did pop a code. I didn't touch the TOPS valve or anything and frankly don't even know where to begin on that. What is strange though is that this wasn't the issue last summer and its strange that now there is this pressure.

 

[devonte007]

No problem, I hope some of the information helps.

Since you did not replace the TOPS valve, I bet that is your culprit.

Looks easy to fix or replace. You may even get away with just cleaning it to get it working again, it’s a simple relay plunger right on top of the engine. Here is a pick I found:


Could be something wrong in the top end of the relay, looks like a couple nuts hold the cover on. Once you get that off you should see the issue and be able to see it actually working rather than just relying on the ‘click’ sound when the key is inserted.

To replace the valve itself looks like you remove the whole oil filler assembly:


This issue is probably just a coincidence and not anything to do with other issues you had before. When boats sit all winter all sorts of things can happen and gremlins like this pop up. Things get gummed up and don't want to work properly. I for one always cross my fingers before the first fire up of the season!

 

[pwgsx]

Man this is going to suck to remove. Not a lot of room to work. I would think once its out I can hook up the key and see it move right? Seems a new one is pushing into the $300 range- WOW!!!! Wish there was a way to bypass it. From my understanding its only there to cut off oil from draining if the motor is flipped. Fine for a ski but on a boat I don't see that being needed.

Think I need to replace the valve cover gasket?

 

[devonte007]

Before you take the whole oil fill assembly off, I would try to just get the solenoid cover off the valve itself. I don't have access to my boat to look first hand, but from the pictures it looks like the top cover comes off the valve by two nuts/bolts that are right on top? Possibly you can get that cover off and peek inside to see what is going on, try to move the solenoid and plunger by hand, etc.

If that does not work, then you will need to remove the whole assembly to get a better idea what is going on. You will probably need to get creative with some swivel sockets to get in there, but I think only 3 screws. As for the gasket, if you are ordering parts already go ahead and get a new one. If the old one looks good I might reuse it as this is not a super critical engine part under high pressure.

The manual says that sometimes the retaining c-clips on the shaft (that hold the 2 plungers on) come loose and it will move up and down but the plungers stay put in the closed condition. This may be why you hear the solenoid clicking but it apparently does not open since the engine pressure shoots up. I have never taken this apart so I can't offer much advise other than what I gather from the shop manual. Maybe someone else with first hand experience can chime in here.

I hope that once you get into this you will find that it is fixable and you won't need to buy a new one. There is not much there to go wrong, they are very simple in operation, and it clicks so something is moving inside. I didn't realize they are that expensive, but if you go new shop around ebay or even others on this forum.

Tip Over Protection System probably not need on a boat, but the engines are direct transfer from the ski's...

 

[pwgsx]

Ok had time last night so I removed the TOPS valve base to what its connected to only to find everything in place and working fine. I was hoping for the C clip to be missing or stuck valve but everything was there. I was able to move the bottom disk just fine. Blew thru the tube and when the valve was pressed by hand it released the pressure. Connected the dess key and it also moved the valve up and down. I am now totally out of ideas of why the valve is not activating and releasing pressure when the engine is running. Could the switch that tells the valve to stay closed when flipped be messed up? Where would it be located on a boat?? Obviously it has to be something with the TOPS. If it was working there would be no pressure in the valve cover at all bc it would be vented right to the intake tube right when the TOPS valve would open?? I am now trying to decide what option to do:

1. Remove the TOPS valve disks and spring and reinstall- this would allow venting all the time
2. Run a T from the valve cover hose to the vent hose as posted earlier
3. Try and replace the switch and hope for the best
4. Replace the TOPS valve - maybe is only working some of the time

 

[devonte007]

What I gather from your last post: You have removed/disassembled the solenoid and all its parts and mechanically the solenoid valve is working when you put the key on. When you were doing your checks, did you feel the solenoid was strong in its movement. I am not sure how solenoids typically fail, but I think they get weak from worn out or dirty parts. Were you able to get the top cover off the solenoid and inspect all of the inner workings? How did things look in there, was it clean/dirty, any signs of wear or overheating? How did the stem and plungers look, were they dirty, oily, gummed up? After you took everything apart and cleaned it, did you reinstall and run the engine to see if you still have a pressure problem?

To rule out problems upstream from this valve (such as the OSPS, ECU, tip over switch) you need to perform the proper electrical tests. Did you run through the tests outlined in the portion of the manual I provided, checking the voltage to the TOPS when key on engine running, and the resistance? If the electrical tests check out, then it has to be something mechanical in the TOPS itself which would require replacement. Since you have 2 engines, if you suspect it is the TOPS then use the one from the non-problem engine and see if it solves the problem on the trouble engine. This way you are not throwing money at parts.

I would not resort to hacking hoses or removing parts just yet, lets go through the proper troubleshooting and find out exactly what is the problem.

 

[pwgsx]

Valve seemed strong, the stem and plunger were clean, I was actually impressed how clean it was. I didn't have a allen wrench to remove the upper plug to check the upper valve but it seems to all move freely. I will take the top off of it tonight as well as check the resistance as I just got a ohm tester. The OSPS and other sensor are new. I was going to test them as well. I cannot find the actually tip over switch as I heard they go bad A LOT. I looked everywhere for it, in the ski they are up front on the MPEM box. Any ideas where it might be?

The only reason I was thinking of removing the TOPS valve disks is the fact that I don't see this valve being useful unless I am missing another function of it?? It is just there if the engine were to be flipped over like in a jet ski. Does the valve have any other function?

 

[devonte007]

I know what you are saying about just taking the plungers out, but maybe we can get it fixed properly or at least figure out exactly what part is failing.

Reason I mentioned the electrical testing is because it should shed light on what part is not working correctly. If you are getting constant 8v (too much or too little is a problem) to the solenoid when key is on and/or engine running then nothing up stream is the problem. I believe the resistance tests the inner workings of the solenoid itself and should let you know if it actually needs replacement.

Never mentioned if you ran that engine since taking everything apart. Was there still a problem? Also consider replacing the TOPS from the good engine and see if it changes anything.

I don't think the TOPS has any other purpose other than tip over protection. It is sort of the PCV valve for the engine, not sure there is any benefit to making sure it closes when the engine is off. Possible that it can reduce moisture getting into the engine when it is just sitting? If it were my engine, I would try to keep it as stock working as possible. Seadoo engineers put the dang thing in there for a reason I guess....

Just thought of this - another way you can test it with key on and off is to simply remove both the ventilation hoses (in and out hoses) and blow through them. You should notice a difference when the valve is open/closed. This way you do not need to run the engine. If the valve works when you blow through it then there is a blockage somewhere else.

 

[pwgsx]

No didn't get to take it back to the lake, its about 45 mins away, hate wasting all that time. With the whole assembly in my hands I can blow on the vent tube and it wont vent, when I put the key on the valve opened and you can blow thru it. However I am wondering if either the valve is not getting the signal to "open" when the osps sensor detects high pressure. If something else was clogged I wouldn't even know where to look. Everything runs fine and last season all it was doing was limp mode to 5000rpms and a buzzer beep ( check engine ) and the candoo system only had a 1202 code- this is why I replaced the ops and osps sensors. Perhaps the new sensor is bad too? Ill let you know what I find out after testing some wires.

Any idea where the tops switch is located? Maybe that is stuck and making the engine think its flipped closing the valve?

 

[devonte007]

If the tops valve passed the blow test, then it is probably working correctly and your issue has been resolved. Maybe it was stuck and by taking it apart you simply made it work again. As I understand it, the tops valve is continuously open when the engine is running and does not close unless the tops switch senses that the craft is upside down at which point the ECM closes the tops valve.

If you have a constant 8v to the tops valve while engine is running then the tops switch is working. According to what I read, the tops switch is either open or closed and sends this info to the ECM which determines if the tops valve gets 8v or 0v. The manual says that the tops switch is located on the MPEM bracket. I believe the MPEM is on the engine firewall for boats, could also be in the dash compartment with the fuses. Testing is easy, it is a simple mercury switch. Holding it up/down will open/close it. Here is a picture of the tops switch:


View attachment Seadoo_Tops_Switch.pdf

The OSPS is simply a fail safe for the system. If the engine pressure gets too high, this sensor lets the ECM know and it will try to cycle the tops valve again to get it open. If the pressure does not dissipate (according to the OSPS) then the alarm warning goes off.

How long did you need to run the engine previously before you noticed significant crank case pressure?

 

[pwgsx]

Idled on the trailer in the water maybe 2-3 mins at the most.

So if I understand that right, as soon as the engine is started, the TOPS valve should open and stay open OR does it only open when the OSPS detects pressure?? I can test that by blowing into the vent line while it run for a second on the trailer right?

 

[devonte007]

Yep that is correct. My understanding is that the tops valve opens as soon as the lanyard is installed and stays open while the engine is running. The only reason the valve would close with the engine running is if the mercury switch senses a tip over situation.

The OSPS only steps in to alert the engine computer that there is a problem (if the pressure gets too high), it is just a trip monitor set for 6 psi.

You can run the boat with the hose attached for 2-3 min. to test this without damaging anything.

 

[pwgsx]

Im going to check the working engine, I know with the problem engine when the key is attached the valve opens and then a short time later I hear it close- this is with the engine off and key still attached. Wondering if that's normal. Ive never paid attention to the good engine on what its doing or if it does the same. I know when the key is removed there is a 20 sec delay and then it closes. Also plan to start each engine and blow/suck into the vent line to see if there is airflow while running.

It does make sense that the pressure remained in the valve cover and oil cap even after the engine was shut off bc the valve closes BUT doesn't add up that pressure built that fast if indeed the valve was open and venting. Going to some digging tonight and sat and keep you posted. Thanks for all the help man I really appreciate it.

 

[devonte007]

It is normal for the engine electronics to shut down after a short while if the lanyard is left on the post and the engine is not started. The beeper even changes from 2 to 4 beeps if I am not mistaken. It is something the programers built into the computers to conserve battery life. When you first attach the lanyard everything is fully energized and ready to go (which takes a lot of power from the battery), after a while the ECU figures you must have forgot the lanyard was energized and goes into conservation mode to lessen battery drain; basically de-energizing everything. I believe everything will energize again once the start button is engaged or the lanyard is reattached.

I hope everything checks out and I am glad to help. Actually learned quite a bit myself in research this issue. If this kind of thing ever pops up with my boat I'll be ready!

 

[pwgsx]

Ok this is what I found so far. TOPS valve checks out as far as ohms go. as well as both sensors. All disk plungers move freely. Also found out the old osps and ops sensors were still good . I activated the TOPS valve with the key and was able to suck air through the vent hose. After 20 seconds, the valve shut and I couldn't suck any air. Removed the key and re-installed and started the engine. I was able to suck air through the vent. However if I put the key on and let the valve activate and then shut and then start the engine the valve stayed closed. This was the same on the good engine. Only thing I can figure is the valve is not being told to open when pressure builds or it is/was getting stuck on occasion. The only other thing I found was the ground wire running from the good engine to the bad was somewhat loose and corroded but it is still grounded. Going to clean all the grounds up on both motors anyways and check the oil filter to see if its crushed.

I will be taking the boat to the lake at some point next week after our rain event stops to run the good engine and see when the valve opens and starts to vent. I will then do the same on the troubled engine and see what it does and if the valve cover builds pressure and the TOPS valve opens.

 

[devonte007]

That is a bit strange that the TOPS valve does not automatically open again once the engine is started after it closes due to the lanyard being left on. Possibly this is normal, and it needs to go through a 'pressure cycle' and be opened by the OSPS sensor. If it is normal I can't think of a reason why it is programmed that way, there is no reason to close the crank case ventilation while an engine is running under normal conditions.

Since both engines are behaving the same way I would like to say it is normal, but a water test will confirm this. I hope everything goes well on the sea trial.

 

[pwgsx]

That's what I would have thought but I guess not. After I do lake test it I might remove the plunger disks anyway so they don't get stuck again - If that's the problem.

I did find all the ground wires to be very corroded so I cleaned them up this weekend. Not sure if that was a problem or not but worth a shot. Also checked the oil filters and found some concern. Both were not crushed- the way they look was from me looking into all the pleats to see what was there. I discovered some small black flecks but not sure what its from. The other filter had some of the same. Also the filter on the left is also the one with the oil issues looks different. The filter material look more worn with more fibers than the other. Maybe its just a different run or something but it seems odd to me. Not knowing where the black stuff came from I removed the air intake tube and it was clear, then checked the intake box that was clear as well. Removed the rectifier and might have found the source. Some of the black paint was flaking off, not a lot but some was missing. I removed both, sand blasted the flaking areas and hit it with a coat of paint. :facepalm:

 

[devonte007]

I came across some additional information regarding the TOPS valve and its operation:
View attachment OSPS_TOPS_Toublshooting.pdf

I was searching for something in my seadoo folder and came across seadoo technical bulletins I must have downloaded at some point and forgot that I had. There was a section in one of them about the OSPS and TOPS valve. I learned that the computer reduces the voltage to the TOPS valve after it initially opens from 7-8v to around 3v. Apparently 3v is enough to just keep it open and not overheat the internal solenoid.

Just thought I would pass along the information in the event it may help your troubleshooting.

 

[pwgsx]

Wow that was some good info, thanks man, where did you find that? It explains a lot better than the dammm manual does. Guess that kinda confirms that I have bad wiring/ground OR valve not opening. I may try to ground the osps like it says to trick it and see if it fixes the problem. Honestly still leaning towards just removing the valves at this point.

 

[devonte007]

I can't remember where I found that document, one of those things I just came across once day while searching for something else and decided to save it in case it came in handy one day. It was quite interesting though and shows how much useful information the actual shop manual can leave out.

Since the voltage does drop down, having good (resistance free) grounds is important. Hopefully the combination of all the little things you found and fixed will lead to a solution. Glad I could help!

 

[pwgsx]

Update from yesterday.........Took the boat out and tested the good engine. Valve opens and stays open, if I don't start right away and it closes, it opens back up 30 seconds after running. The bad engine however the valve would stay open if I started right away and vent BUT if I keep the key on and wait, the valve closes and I start the engine the valve never re-opens and pressure builds. I got it narrowed down to something is not telling it to open or maybe the valve wont respond. I am gutting the valve and removing the disks.

Now to another odd problem. Since the engines were warm I decided to pump out the oil. Used the same method as my rxp and got about 2 quarts out of each engine. Put the engine in drown mode holding the throttle plate and bumped the engine to pump more oil back BUT to my surprise there was nothing more to suck out. Did the same on the other engine and nothing. What the hell?? Am I missing something that is different from my ski vs the boat?

 

[devonte007]

Bummer that the TOPS is still acting up, but the work around should solve the issue for good.

As for the oil, I usually get about 2.5-3 quarts out myself on the first pump out. I do not perform the additional crank method to get an extra 1/2-3/4 of a quart out, I don't like the idea of bleeding the oil pump dry only to get a little bit more oil out.

I would say that either the engines are not completely level, or maybe the tube is not inserted deep enough through the dip stick tube into the oil pan. The manual says the dip stick tube should go in 18.7 inches. I put a piece of electrical tape at this measurement on my suck tube at 19 inches so I know when I am in far enough. Sometimes the tube can get hung up and I need to poke it around to get it down all the way. My pump has a very stiff tube with a wire inside, but I know that some pumps have tubes that are too flexible and can't get all the way down.

 

[pwgsx]

As for the TOPS I think I gave it my best shot. I am satisfied with removing the valves inside of it. For the oil that's what is odd, I leveled it using the spark plug tops, the fuel rail and exhaust manifold. 100% level. Raised rpms to 4k and killed the engines. Pumped out more than 2 quarts each as the P.O. had filled it almost to the top bend on the dipstick. The pump hose I use is marked with tape and got it all the way down to the bottom. Normally on my RXP I would bump it over once to get 1/2 to 3/4 more oil and and refill. Nothing more got pumped back to be sucked out. I refilled with 2 quarts in each and the oil level was dead center of the 2 bends on the dipstick. I just found it odd that nothing got pumped back. I must be missing something.