Oil

[scrump]

How important is it to use the Bombardier-Rotax oil? Can other oils be substituted? My problem is that I live in a small town now, and there are no places that carry parts or oil for seadoo. I found one guy here in town that has had a case of Bobardier injection oil on order for about 2 months!!!!!! (Should of been here by now don't you think)

 

[seadoosnipe]

Wally world!....

You can go to your local Wal-Mart and buy the Quick Silver brand of synthetic or mineral oil, depending on which type you normally use. You only have to make sure you clean out all the old oil before putting it in. That's because of the different detergent type additives, may have a conflict with each other.............
I use the Quick Silver synthetic in my boat. Read the back of the bottle because Quick Silver makes different types. Seadoo will be listed on the back of the bottle if you can use it.
Must be, non NMMA, Non TCW, oils.....with a low ash content.

 

[Disappointment]

On the contrary, I would say that either a semi-synthetic or a synthetic low-ash blend of any oil should suffice.
NMMA's TC-W3 is strictly a mark of oil performance standards when it comes to two-cycle injection or premix.

I would not hesitate to use a non-bombardier oil. Heck, bombardier doesn't own or operate any refinery, they merely come up with a specific blend of oil that will suit the purpose, then contract a refiner to prooduce it... then throw it in a nice yellow bottle and get to mark up the price..

I've had success burning amsoil (oil injector), penzoil outboard motor, quicksilver outboard motor... and specifically Cabelas' brand semi-synthetic outboard motor.

 

[kustomkarl]

The oil that BRP recomends is for a specific purpose. These engines put out a lot of hp and are designed to use a specific oil for there needs. If you search the forums and read about the problems other oil has done to these engines you'd be peticular on the oil you used too. It's not just about slapping on a pretty yellow sticker and making profits, it's about engineering oil that works best in their product.

 

[scrump]

Carefull

I like to be carefull about anything involving the engine, things that go wrong with the engine can be expensive. I would rather pay a little over $20 a gallon once or twice a summer than pay hundreds replacing things that could have been avoided.

scrump

 

[seadoosnipe]

Disappointment....

Now I wonder where the user name "disappointment" comes from. That advice isn't really sound advice, with the exception that using "Amsoil" is an acceptable oil type for the bombardier applications.
Unlike other 2 stroke motors, Rotax has a completly different type run cycle than all others. It's engine design is one of a "patented" kind.
There is no open exhaust to the bottom of your propeller. It's a water injected, tuned system. Other outboards use Reed valves on the intake system, Rotax uses a rotary valve and chamber. Other outboards may or may not use oil injection systems.
There have been "I won't say a pot load", but there have been several pop in looking for answer and after asking questions to help them trouble shoot their problem, found they were using a TCW type oil.
So while I'll agree with you on the "proper" type of non NMMA and non TCW low ash oils out by Amsoil, I totally disagree with you about the "little yellow sticker"........
No, I doubt they have a refinery of their own that makes their special blend, but I bet their research and development team are the ones that come up with the recipe on what types of additives they want/need to maintain a clean running engine.
Oh, BTW, Bomdardier makes a statement that you "dont'" have to use their oil, they only tell you that if you don't use their blend, to use a blend with the content that I described above.
Please don't get me on my soap box on oils. Before I get in a debate with you on this, please look through the forum for the results of previous debates that lead to a lot of extensive research by several members!.....:rant:

 

[Disappointment]

I spoke strictly out of my knowledge of the use of two-cycle oils in snowmobiles... which by the way, are most similar in both engine design and performance. In the several thousand miles I have logged on sleds, non-OEM oil (with the exception of lackthereof) has never caused a problem, even in rotax engines..

Which leads me to believe your stories of using TCW oils causing direct problems are either coincidence or complete and utter bullcrap.. sure, some oils may make the RAVEs gather carbon faster, but that's not necessarily an oil problem, but more a maintainence issue.
Touche.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Show me your research......

Do you have any research to support your "opinions"...as to the use of these types oil your referreing too. If so, please copy and paste it and I'll be glad to look over your research. And if I find that what your saying has merit, then you'll be patted on the back as to that research.
But as the moderator of this forum, we do not come in here with information or advice, being shot from the "hip". None of us is perfect and if your snowmobile engine is in fact a "Rotax" engine, your using the TWC 3 oils in it. Then there may be some luck to your good fortune that you've never encountered a problem using any of the oils not recommended by Bombardier. I personally use the "Quick Silver" brand designed as a non TW or NMMA oil in my doo. On the back, it states it's formulated to work with that application. Amsoil is also a maker of the oil, specifically put out to be used in the supercharged 4-TEC engines. If your using anything other than those requirements in your machines, then either the cooler climates have helped out a bit, or you've been very lucky up to this point
But it your basing your opinions totally on experience, then I'd say, opinions are like as*holes, everyone has one.
To my forum readers, your words of "experience" mean nothing to them who have run their Doo's under the requirements that have been set forth in the manuals and the operators hand books.
More than 80% of our members have already gone over this oil issue and for us, it's a closed case. We use the basic requirments set forth by the manafacturer.
You remind me of the type operator who would put the engine oil API designated CF or CD in an engine that requires a designation SE or SF (which is the two different oils for the diesel and gasoline engines. Hey, there both V-8's, so it doesn't matter, right!)
The below is a "copy and paste" from the Amsoil oil requirements, from their website. Please read on, since you obviously want to contiune to debate me. I love a good debate. But I can promise you this, these members will listen to all the mechanics in this forum who have contributed to this debate in the past, rather than someone in here with a cocky attitude that "oh, just use diesel in your tank, that will allow you to use a 75:1 ratio because diesel already has some oiling properties!.......REad on!

While Amsoil does make an oil that is useable in the Bombardier Seadoo watercraft, which has already been established, you must remember, the type for our Doo's is the recommended "Amsoil Interceptor" type oil. Its blend of Non-NMMA, NON TCW standards, with a low ash content make it a good substitute to the "Quick Silver" blend that I use. It's a bit more expensive, so if you go as far as pay the extra price for the AMSOIL, you may as well by the recommended blend of either synthetic or mineral from your local Bombardier manafacturer.

As quoted from the Amsoil companies web site......
AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil is recommended as an injector oil or at a 50:1 mix ratio in carbureted, electronic fuel Injected (EFI) and direct fuel injected (DFI) snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles, ATVs and jet boats, including, but not limited to, those manufactured by Bombardier®, Yamaha®, Arctic Cat®, Polaris®, Kawasaki®, Suzuki® and Honda®.

There is another 2-cycle blend of Amsoil that will cause engine failure in the typical Rotax engine and that's the TCR series 2000 racing oil. This oil is a TW oil. Do not use it!......REad on

AMSOIL Series 2000 2-Cycle Racing Oil (TCR) is recommended in air- or water-cooled two-cycle motors where NMMA TC-W3, API TC or JASO FC oils are specified. It is excellent for both racing and recreational use in snowmobiles, outboard motors, personal watercraft, motorcycles and ATVs. Series 2000 2-Cycle Racing Oil is not recommended for use with nitro methane or alcohol fuels. It is recommended for use at a 50:1 mix ratio or as an injector oil for both racing and recreation use and for use with catalytic converters.

So Mr. Disappointment, unless you got some real hard core research to bring to this forum, please state your post that "in my opinion" so that our readers will know that this is of the experience of a "sled racer" rather than a PWC water enthuisiast who may be a mechanic, or someone who is versed in the fuel and oil requirements of our specific skis..........from the older 587cc all the way up to the newer 4-stroke 1497ccs......

Thank you for your opinion.....
It's always welcome in the forum!
Louis
SeadooSnipe,
Mechanic too:
Turbines,
Pumps,
Compressors,
All internal combustion engines from:
The single cylinder 18cc engine to
The V-8 427 Big block cu.in.
Motocross racing, street racing
And many other experienced auto sports.
College educated as a Mechanical Engineer,
Licensed and at present
A working engineer at a Chemical plant using Chemical Vapor Deposition reactors.
Hobbies to include building and racing model R/C airplanes and cars.
Boating in my beloved SeaDoo and Tigershark
Oh, and flying kites with my kids!
:reddevil: :rant:

 

[kustomkarl]

:agree: It's always good to have the remarks corrected by someone that loves a debate! I have seen opinions fly in this forum but with out any kind of research it is just that an opinion. I think if a member is going to just throw out information without doing any research, or have any real facts they should just keep it to themselves. We have lots of members that value the information in this forum because it is researched and not just hearsay or opinions. This forum is about helping seadoo owners handle problems, questions and concerns. It's not about giving out wrong information just to make a post. If you want to voice your opinion, your more than welcome to do so. If you want to make a solid statement...have the research to back it up!

 

[Disappointment]

Despite your ridicules ad nauseum of examples of the type of operator you believe me to be, I'll ignore them for the sake of fair argument. Research, you ask for? The only research that should be trusted is free of bias, with controlled conditions in a lab that have been devised to reproduce conditions one would see in the real world. Neither I, and I sincerely doubt anyone that frequents this forum has performed such extensive (read: credible) research.
So, instead of arguing research, we're arguing experience. I've stated mine, Snipe has stated his. I'll say this: you're supposed to use Bombardier. I've used others with success. Use what you will..

I sure as heck wouldn't want my words to be treated as the gospel. Though I still question the cause of said problems related to TCW-sealed oil, I apologize for calling them bullcrap.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Biased....

Mr. Disappointment. Your in a forum, which is a forum that supports the Seadoo watercraft and their products. You make a statement of bias. Your very right. I am very biased as to the proper care and working components of this engine and how and by what, they are maintained with. That's why I'm a moderator. I have never used my position in this forum to "hush" someone or take away from their input. But your ill written statements can cause more harm than good to the members who rely on getting answers to problems they may be experiencing. Anyone can come in here and open threads or make posts as to what their opinion is. I make mine.
I read your post with much concern because when you say that there is no problem with the use of TWC or NMMA oils, against the manufacturers recommendations, then your opinion (which was not so stated) may lead the Seadoo watercraft enthusiasts into believing that they can use any type 2-cycle oil they'd like.
I have done extensive research on the oils, as is others in this forum too. We have a member in the forum who works as a chemist at an oil refinery (which he states in the forum, but I'll let you read to find out, if your interested) who has explained in depth as to how brands like "Quaker State, Pennezoil" etc... can come from the same refinery, but with a spec of this or that, be named their own oils. His duties in testing these types oil and explanations of how and why they are designed the way they are, is part of the research done several months ago on "oils". This research and debate is done, with a fair and open mind. Thats the only way we can come to a geniune conclusion as to what works for us. We've had a very productive and informative debate on this issue. Our research even went in depth, into the AMSOIL oils, which has been highly regarded as the best oils to run in the newer supercharged 4-TEC engines. I don't mind you making statements or even standing up with a "factual" statement that has some depth to it, as far as some type investigation or research. You have still, in three post, not shown that you have any specific research or "genuine experience" (as a racer, salesman, qualified mechanic,...) in the use of any other oil for our watercraft.
If you want to make a statement and be heard. Or if you think you have pertinent information to someones query, then we as a forum, would love to hear your input. But do be advised, this is a SEADOO forum, not a forum on Yamaha's, Airplanes or Tractors. We (and I think I speak for all) are very biased about our watercraft being number one. And anything but the proper care or use that goes against the manufacturers recommendations is pretty much, not accepted.
Just for your information and I think I may have already said this, Seadoo recommends the use of their oil but they are realists too, knowing not everyone who owns a Seadoo can attain their products easily. That's why they give you the recommendations. So you can find another manufacturer, if you need too.
Good luck and happy posting in the Seadoo forum. We welcome everyone and even when we disagree, we find a conclusion or solution and move on. For me, this issue is closed, as is the thread. Thank you for your input.

Louis
Seadoosnipe:hat: