Oil change and tune up questions

[Mitsurax]

Ok so I have a pair of very well cared for and maintained 2004 seadoo's, they are RXP and 3d models. I purchased them last summer from a well to do gentleman that got bored of them and gave me a smokin deal that I couldn't refuse.

Here's the deal, I committed the cardinal sin of not winterizing them after summer. I know I know, this was wronge and I have no business owning these pieces of fine maritime engineering if I don't intend on properly taking care of them
My bad... But now that summer is abruptly approaching I am going through the service manual with a fine tooth comb so I can get these machines up to standards. I'm a technician by trade and a Mitsubishi evo tuner by hobby so Im very compitant in performing maintenance, but have little experience with marine applications. And that's why I'm here now:thumbsup:

My question: when changing oil in the RXP the manual says the start engine and run at 4000 rpm for about 10 seconds then shut off ( this will cause the oil to be relocated to engine compartment) then proceed to pump out oil from dip stick. Step two is two kick over the ignition while applying full throttle (but not start engine) for about 1 seconds and this is called "drowning mode". Is this true, that if I apply full throttl and start ignition that the engine won't start due to to much fuel and thus called "drowning mode"? Why can't I just disconnect the spark plugs and kick it over???

Question: I bought some jet pump oil, but have not a clue where to install it??? I will read up on this but if anyone has advise I will take it

Dows anyone have any advise for this?.

Also if anyone has any advise for tunning up the two stroke 3D for summer would be greatly appreciated.
Just FYI I have some parts on hand for the tune up

RXP: oil, oil filter, spray lubricant, jet pump oil, air filter cleaner and lube.

3D: oil, oil filter, intake filter cleaner and lube

Thank you and have a great weekend!

 

[ski-d00]

for "drowning mode", that is just a silly name they give it. with full throttle applied, it actually is not injecting any fuel and not giving it any spark at the same time. it will never ever ever start since it doesn't get any fuel or any spark. the 4tec motors are very high tech and computer controlled by the ECU.

the RXP doesn't use pump oil, it only uses pump grease. the 3D uses pump oil and you have to remove the nozzle on the back of the pump to remove the cone with 3 allen head bolts and refill through the allen plug in the cone.

not winterizing is a huge mistake as you know but here's why:

on the RXP, if the engine is not fogged, moisture will cause surface rust on the valve stems, this will only slightly weaken the valve but just enough to cause complete valve failure and will break and cause major damage, seen it a lot and will cause $3500 in damage(new motor necessary due to cylinder damage). in 08, seadoo went to a much stronger valve so this is not really an issue any more.

on the 3D, water left in the motor will freeze and crack your cylinders.

also, not fogging your motors will cause the cylinders to get surface rust and small pitting. this will greatly shorten the life of the motor.

make sure you use the correct 2 stroke full synthetic oil in the 3D or it won't last long, bombardier full synthetic is my preference.

 

[Mitsurax]

Yeah I figured it was a bad thing not getting the motors winterized, no excuses. But I did keep them heated. So I will go over them carefully and look for any rust that may have built up and see what I can do to clean it up.


Thanks for the help, I have a lot of work to do.

 

[devonte007]

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the 2-stroke engines so I can't help you there....but I'm sure there are many others around that can chime in.

As far as the 4-tec RXP goes:

Oil change:
Oil and filter change is really very easy as long as you have a good fluid pump to take the oil out of the dip stick tube. Besides the normal parts, I always keep a couple o-rings on hand that go on the oil filter canister cap. The big o-ring around the cap goes bad sometimes and they are easy to snap while prying off the cap. I would rather keep some on hand than have to wait a week after I break it.

I know that the manual has you spin the engine after evacuating most of the oil to get every last bit trapped in the PTO and oil pump. I don't like to do that though. In my opinion, I would rather leave the remaining 3/4 of a quart of old oil in the engine rather than risk a dry sump start-up. I change the oil frequently enough that it really should not matter. It's your choice but thats just my stance on the issue.

Other things you may consider doing:
1. Change the engine coolant if it has been in there for more than 2 years
2. New spark plugs every season
3. Take the cone off the jet pump (not too hard of a task) and inspect the inside. Make sure there is plenty of grease in there, and most important that no water got in there. If it is dry and greased, button it all back up and check it again next year. If there is water, you need to replace one or more seals.
4. Supercharger - since this is one of the older engines you need to make sure you keep up on the maintenance with respect to rebuilding the pump every 100 hrs or so and making sure you do NOT have the original ceramic washers in there. That would be VERY bad. Search the threads here for more info on the superchargers.
5. Jet pump - inspect the jet pump to make sure the wear ring and impeller are in good shape.

That is about all I can think of off hand. Since you stored these ski's in a heated garage (as you mentioned) there was probably no harm done. If you continue to store them in a heated area for the winter, all you really need to do is fog the engine and lube everything well.

Hope this helps, let us know if you have any other questions.

 

[Dennis]

I"ve changed alot of oil in alot of 4TECS in the past 9 years. I have found that you will extract more oil from the engine if you do NOT start the engine ahead of time. Have the ski level.

Like devonte007, I also don't suggest putting the throttle in "DROWN MODE" in order to get a little remaining oil out. I had a ski fire off once when I cranked it with the throttle wide open. Must have been a glitch in the throttle position sensor. It didn't hurt anything but that was the last time for that. If you feel better by getting that remaining oil out then unplug the spark plug coils before cranking. :cheers:

 

[Michael211_2000]

If in doubt, with it full of oil still go ahead and hold the throttle fully open and try to start it... bet it won't start though!

Warm oil (not HOT!) sucks out alot easier than cold oil. I suggest taking it out for a light run on the lake/river/bay of your choice for an hour or so, then letting it cool down about 1 hour (the time it takes me to trailer mine back home roughly) before changing the oil so the oil will still be nice and warm... but not HOT, if the engine is still hot the suction tube can melt don't try this right after having ridden it! Also if you do the full-throttle cranking thing (my preference) you need to remember to pull the suction tube out before you crank on the engine!! Don't want the suction tube getting wrapped up around the crank or anything inside there after all. Just food for thought.

ps. When I get mine home after a day on the lake, I take the seats off and let it air out for 2-3 hours... even 45 minutes to an hour after putting it on the trailer it's still super warm and super humid inside the hull! I don't put the seats and cover back on until bedtime that night. Further all winter long while "sleeping" I take the cover and seats off every pretty afternoon we get here to let the inside air out. And put Stabilizer in your fuel, either Stabil (red or green... I've used them both) or SeaFoam every fillup.

- Michael

 

[Mitsurax]

Hey thanks everyone, I REALLY appreciate the help.

So yesterday I "attempted" to change the oil in the RXP, with little to no success. I followed the directions in the manual step by step, but everytime I "drown mode" it seemed to not put any oil under the dipstick where I was told to get it. And so I though hmmm, maybe there is not much oil in it, so I put in a quart, level raised on the dip stick. So I would run the engine for 30 seconds as per manual, let sit 30 more seconds... no oil... WTF, I'm thinking where the heck is it going? So today I will take your advice and try not starting anything and try to pump..

Question: How do you experienced folk check the oil that you have found to be the most reliable.

Question: where two locations is the oil sitting when its not running, and when after the engine has been running.. I'm confused on why not have a oil sump underneath the crank like an other logical engine has.

Devonte007, thanks for the heads up about the o-ring, I will get some on hand, sounds like you found this out the hard way. Also thanks for the nice tips on the maintenance, I will follow this tonight.

2-strokes are more of my game, I have had a handfull of GS and XP in the past, this RXP is my first. SO the servicing the supercharger is uncharted territory. I will do some searching for it on this forum. do you have any specific threads in mind that you could hyperlink

Thanks everyone

 

[red2blue]

How far are you sticking the...oil extracting hose...into your dipstick tube?

 

[Michael211_2000]

So yesterday I "attempted" to change the oil in the RXP, with little to no success. I followed the directions in the manual step by step, but everytime I "drown mode" it seemed to not put any oil under the dipstick where I was told to get it. And so I though hmmm, maybe there is not much oil in it, so I put in a quart, level raised on the dip stick. So I would run the engine for 30 seconds as per manual, let sit 30 more seconds... no oil... WTF, I'm thinking where the heck is it going?

You are either not sticking enough hose down into the dipstick tube (not reaching the bottom of the crankcase), or the hose is curling up inside the crankcase and the end is ending up higher than the bottom of the crankcase. It'd sure be nice if there was a metal/brass/copper tube you could stick the end of the suction hose on and then insert that tube straight to the bottom of the crankcase! Anybody thought to see if local hardware stores carry anything that will work for this? The plastic tubes tend to curl around once you stick them down the dipstick tube I've found and there's about no way to stop this from happening! :-(

ps. If you run the engine it takes more than 30 seconds for the oil to make it's way back down into the crankcase! There's all sorts of channels and passageways inside these 4TEC engines.

- Michael

 

[devonte007]

Hey Mitsurax,

If you cannot get any oil out of the dip stick tube then it does sound like whatever fluid pump you are using is not working. The fluid pump I have has really stiff plastic tubes with a metal wire in there for stiffness. I can stick it positively down the dip stick tube and into the oil pan where it bottoms out. I checked the manual and you need a tube that is 18.7 inches long to reach all the way down to the oil pan. I put a piece of electrical tape on mine at 19 inches to make sure I always get it in there far enough. Just as Michael said, you need a really stiff tube to push through all the bends and into the oil pan. What type of fluid pump are you using?

By the way, this is the pump I use and it works really well: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JFJM14/ref=s9_simh_gw_p60_d5_g263_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0MA0710S60B4Y7SYWM2C&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

Q1 - what type of oil do I use?
I use a name brand semi-synthetic oil, usually valvoline or something. I do not have a supercharger though, and I think anyone with the supercharged engines need to stay with strait dinosaur oil, the synthetic stuff does not work well with the supercharger washers. Maybe someone can verify that for me?

Q2 - where is all the oil when the engine not running?
Most of the oil will eventually make its way back into the bottom oil pan. But about 3/4 of a quart or so will be trapped in various engine passages, the oil cooler, and the oil pump which is sort of on the side of the engine under the oil filler tube. There are gears on the side of the engine that need to be bathed on oil (if I am not mistaken) and some of it will never drain into the bottom of the engine unless you crank it over 'dry' and force it into the pan. I am not an expert on this, but it is recall from looking though the shop manual.

 

[Michael211_2000]

Supercharged engines need specially formulated engine oil... too slippery and the supercharger clutch washers will slip too easily and burn up, not slippery enough and the supercharger clutch washers won't slip at all (blowing the seals out of the supercharger if you let off the throttle suddenly).

It's expensive but go to your local Seadoo dealership and get the BRP branded oil for 4TEC Supercharged engines (or order it online if there's no local dealership). It's alot cheaper than a ruined supercharger. The BRP 4TEC Supercharged engine oil is formulated to work properly with your supercharger. Anything else, not so much.

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

Mitsurax, also I note you've got an '04 model RXP and I'm assuming it has the Supercharged 4TEC engine? Do you know if the OEM ceramic clutch washers in the supercharger have been replaced with steel upgrades? The ceramic washers were prone to cracking and breaking apart. If you don't know if they've been changed you need to find out, they're bad news if they fail they fall down into the engine and clog up the oil pump intake screens very bad Mojo.

Finally keep in mind that the superchargers are a wear item and require complete tear down and rebuilds every 100 hours of operation (new bearings new shaft new seals and all the goodies!). Understand that if the supercharger fails and falls apart, it does so INSIDE of your engine's crankcase that's where the broken parts end up and there's no way to clean out the pieces short of pulling the engine out and splitting the crankcase open. Much better to pull the supercharger out and service it while it's still all together. ;-)

- Michael

 

[Mitsurax]

Michael and devonte007,

Well I knew from the get go that my pump I'm using is not the best, and it took forever to pump it out, I just didn't give it enough time yesterday. But last night when I was getting frustrated I put in two quarts (BRP 4-tech) oil in just to see if I could pump anything out. So when I was at it again today I eventually got roughly 2 quarts of black nasty looking oil! So I'm at least doing it right now, but my pump hose is collapsing so I will invest in a better pump tomorrow. And yes I was sticking it in far enough because my hose would go in very far, and I tried at various lengths until I couldn't get any more out.

But still I only go two quarts?? Think I should fill oil until the proper level on the dip stick and pump it again, at least I would get a flush that way.

I'm just worried at the fact that I put in two quarts last night and only pumped about the same back out. Maybe the engine didn't have any oil left and I'm super lucky to have it still running.

Note: it does not smoke at all, and I will run a compression test tomorrow to make sure

Thanks

 

[devonte007]

I usually pump out about 3 quarts (if I remember correctly) before the engine cranking process the manual tells you to perform. So I would guess a new fluid pump will solve your problem. Just get a new one and try again, you should have much better success. If you are really worried about dirty oil, you could do a few oil changes over the next few weeks and run the ski in between for a few hours.

 

[murray5p]

I check the oil level before evacuating it, and pump into a measured container, then I know how much old oil I have to hunt for. When I did the drown mode I retrieved almost a 3/4 of a quart.

 

[ski-d00]

You need to warm the engine up first before an oil change, 3-4 minutes on the hose works well, cold oil won't pump very well. Rev to 4k rpm for 10 seconds before you shut it off will move oil from the pto housing into the bottom crankcase. Every oil change will only remove about 3 qts, leaving behind 1.5 qts. You don't need to do drown mode unless your fogging the motor.

 

[Mitsurax]

You need to warm the engine up first before an oil change, 3-4 minutes on the hose works well, cold oil won't pump very well. Rev to 4k rpm for 10 seconds before you shut it off will move oil from the pto housing into the bottom crankcase. Every oil change will only remove about 3 qts, leaving behind 1.5 qts. You don't need to do drown mode unless your fogging the motor.

Yeah I realize it would have came out a lot easier if the engine is warm. My pump is crappy, but the cool thing is that the hose is so small that I could squeaze the hose as far down as it can go and I kept checking at different levels to make sure and double make sure there was nothing more I could possibly get. I will stop and get a new pump after work today to make life easier in the near futur. And I'm ordering new o-rings..

I read a thread lastnight about superchargers going out, now I'm getting a little paranoid, is there a how-to or maintenance thread I should read, so I could get some parts on order if I need them.

Thanks guys, you have been a big help, and with some persistance I just may get the oil changed yet!! :thumbsup: