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New carbon seal

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shucky

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Just had a carbon seal replaced by a dealer, took the ski out and sadly to say it was only a 5 minute ride, rattles coming from the back end and a massive drag on the motor when on the throttle.
I'll try posting a video of the movement in the new seal, I don't think it's supposed to move in such away?
09 seadoo gti 155 Se https://vimeo.com/149457798


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Massive drag on the motor sounds really bad Shucky, can you take it back for the dealer to inspect the problem?

These things happen occasionally and if I was your dealer I would want you to bring it back in so I could diagnose and correct the problem most likely free of charge if my work didn't go well. I can say at our dealership we care about this and want to make it right b/c we want your repeat business in the future.
 
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Yeah it's going back Monday morning, just seeing what others opinion is with the play/movement in the seal on the video. I've been told the shaft/ seal should be tighter then what s showing?.


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Yeah sorry but I didn't watch your video it's b/c of my own limitations of where I am right now. I can say if the carbon seal is wobbling around or vibrating (my guess?) and you notice a drag on the engine this cannot be good.

The ID of the carbon seal is of course greater than the OD of the drive shaft but normally the carbon piece doesn't wobble or drag the engine down at all. The only purpose of the carbon seal is to keep water from leaking into the hull and air from leaking out of the hull and ventilating the impeller. If it's working as intended it shouldn't be wobbling, vibrating and dragging down the motor, this is why it's made of carbon, this type of seal is VERY low friction and doesn't absorb engine power.

A vibration will shatter the carbon piece so the carbon might be damaged at this point and you may have been close to sinking if it had failed completely.

I'm not sure if your dealer is located on a boat ramp but if we had replaced your seal I feel confident we would have water tested this at least on the ramp in the water. Some dealers that aren't located on the water have a jet ski or boat test tank.
 
Cheers sportster, that's exactly what's happening, the seal is wobbling around I can move it by hand. And chance this issue could cause shaft damage?
When I say engine drag, it's a bit like a cars transmission slipping as you put your foot down, basically a lot of rev but hardly no go.
Yeah I know about the sinkage part... Nearly happened when it first failed.
Yeah I had thought about the water test as well.. Had it been done i'm sure this issue would have been noticeable to the mechanic..


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The carbon seal floats over or around the shaft. It does not touch the shaft. It is the pressure of the boot that keeps it tight against the metal collar. If it wobbles about, something isn't aligned well. It should sit there and move maybe a tiny bit.


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Yours does not look right to me. Here is how it should look.

166.jpg



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That's what I'm thinking coastiejoe, the alignment is off, which I knew something mechanical wise was not right within the first 5 minutes of riding or trying to. And in all honesty, if I noticed it, I would think a dealer mechanic would be able to as well which leads me to think they don't water test after repairs.
I'm now hoping they come to the party tomorrow for a free rework.


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Take a picture of the carbon seal as best you can I want to get a better look at that area. Try to get it like the picture I posted.


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ImageUploadedByTapatalk1450611769.354492.jpg
I took this one the other day. As its 10:15 pm here.
Note it's a 09 Rotax ( seadoo supplement program between 09 and 2010 ).


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Update, the rubber coating has broken off the drive shaft and ended up in the prop/ pump.... Basically new shaft and bearings they say.


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Quotes price from
The dealer ... Ahhh 1600... Not a happy camper


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Most remove the driveshaft cover and throw it away once it breaks apart


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Yep just working out the order on a drive shaft kit. At the moment, from SBT AU


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[MENTION=43374]Coastiejoe[/MENTION]
Are you saying they remove the rubber coating on the shaft once it starts breaking apart and reuse the same shaft? Excuse me if it seems like a tard question.


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[MENTION=69229]shucky[/MENTION]. Yes. To be clear. I'm talking about the protective cover that rides on the shaft. Once it cracks, most remove it. Simply get spray lube and spray the shaft after use to prevent corrosion.


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Just want to clarify something...

On skis, there is a cover on many of the shafts. Once they break up, most simply remove them and toss them. I ASSUME this is the case on the boats as well....
 
I am not an expert on 4tec skis as I have just recently purchased an 09RXTIS after years of two stroking, so please correct me if I am wrong.
According to the manual I have, you must remove the spark plugs so the engine will turn over during driveshaft installation as the driveshaft screws onto the floating ring. (left hand threads) The splines are engaged on the engine while you remove/install
the driveshaft by turning counter clockwise or clockwise 8 turns. Removing the spark plugs lets the engine turn over with ease while unscrewing the driveshaft.
Then you can remove the floating ring and rubber collar.
There is a special tool to hold the floating ring in place while turning the driveshaft, as well as, a spline socket to actually turn the drive shaft while holding the floating ring. I don't have a shaft cover on my ski like two stroke skis have.
Again, I am no expert and I am not sure you have the same setup, so please take this for what it is worth.

I tried to up load the video on my interactive manual, but for some reason it will not work. Good luck.
 
The 4-tec (early I believe?) is rubber laminate coated, I'm not sure why or even if it's necessary except perhaps corrosion protection?. I guess if the rubber coating comes off and gets balled up inside the rubber bellows this will make the bellows shake and the carbon seal will wobble and not seal.

All the seals I've seen tend to ride against the shaft thus eventually take an egg shape inside the inner diameter, the shaft keeps the alignment but once the egg shape from wear is enough the seal is too far off center to seal.

When the seal isn't working air from the bilge will be sucked into the impeller and ventilate the impeller thus will feel like a slipping clutch as the water is mixed with air "traction" and and suction is lost, jet pump performance becomes poor and engine revs fine but ski doesn't accelerate.

I'm not convinced having the rubber coating on the shaft is necessary but I'm probably overlooking something. There was a change later on, not sure if the rubber coating went away but hopefully, seems like a questionable idea to me.
 
That is correct sportster sometime during late 2010 or early 2011 seadoo done away with the coating which I'm guessing this would be the reason, corroding and crumbling bits. They now have what they calling a updated drive shaft, I'm not sure if its the one coastiejoe has pictured above or if its the same setup that I've got only without the rubber coating.
Getting prices for this in AU is nearly a joke best I've found yet was $590 with that said it comes in a kit, new shaft,seals bearings and clips.
so Sadly to it seems my summer joys have came to an end this year before they even started.
 
Yes Shucky, prices have become a joke even here , greed trickles down. I wonder if it's possible for you to remove the rubber coating so it doesn't peel off and become entangled in the impeller and rotating assembly? I'm not sure what the downside of this idea would be. If the coating cannot be removed entirely it might be possible to use a stainless steel tie-wrap around the shaft to keep the delamination to a minimum?

I'm pretty sure the new drive shaft involves a big nut and a host of several different parts as the upgrade, one poster mentioned he "refurbished" his corroded drive shaft using jb-weld epoxy or something like that to smooth and fill the rusted pitting, not sure why that was necessary.

Anyway, assuming the rubber coating is thick thus necessary, perhaps wrapping some twine coated in epoxy around that location of the shaft can restore the diameter lost from missing rubber?

Just trying to brainstorm ideas to get you back out on the water as opposed to paying an arm and leg for not much reason, my friend....

So to remove the shaft, the stainless ring must be pressed backward and the round retaining clip removed from the drive shaft to allow the shaft to exit the rear. Then remove the jet pump and slide the shaft out, get her right and reassemble.

I hear the rubber drive shaft bellows on 4-tecs is a challenge to compress, there are a couple posts on how some folks have rigged their own backyard tool for this. On the 2-strokes, the bellows really isn't very stiff.

Good luck man, I hope you don't have to spend another arm and leg to get this going...
 
The 4-tec (early I believe?) is rubber laminate coated, I'm not sure why or even if it's necessary except perhaps corrosion protection?. I guess if the rubber coating comes off and gets balled up inside the rubber bellows this will make the bellows shake and the carbon seal will wobble and not seal.

All the seals I've seen tend to ride against the shaft thus eventually take an egg shape inside the inner diameter, the shaft keeps the alignment but once the egg shape from wear is enough the seal is too far off center to seal.

When the seal isn't working air from the bilge will be sucked into the impeller and ventilate the impeller thus will feel like a slipping clutch as the water is mixed with air "traction" and and suction is lost, jet pump performance becomes poor and engine revs fine but ski doesn't accelerate.
me.

That's my issue right there. All throttle no go, word is the 09 shaft I have is rubber coated which the coating has wore and bits ending up in the jet pump.
I' also able to move the shaft at the bellow / carbon seal end a fair bit.
Is it possible to tell the difference between a aftermarket and genuine seadoo drive shaft.


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Hi, it sounds as if there's rubber bits up inside the carbon seal bellows interfering with the carbon seal as the driveshaft is rotating. I'd guess in this case the carbon seal can't seal against the rotating stainless steel ring on the drive shaft and this allows air to become sucked from the bilge into the impeller, the impeller will just spin in the air and cannot pull/push water through the pump. So in this case the engine should rev fine, just the jet pump doesn't work well.

I'm not sure why the drive shaft rubber cannot just be removed and the rubber coating exfoliated, the diameter will be smaller, of course. IMO, Seadoo should've covered the shaft using nylon instead, why they covered the shaft to prevent rust is a little mysterious to me, salt will get down inside under the rubber anyway unless the adhesion is perfect and that's obviously the case.

As far as aftermarket shaft is concerned, there might be some subtle differences but the important parameters would be proper length and spline fit. Like mine and most, the drive shaft on yours I believe has both ends splined, these splines are engaged at the pump into the impeller and at the engine into the power takeoff coupling.

It's fairly common for the splines inside the power takeoff and drive shaft might wear if there's a lack of lubricating grease in the spline coupling, and if the wear is great enough the engagement will become poor, torque from the engine isn't transferred through the coupling into the drive shaft if the splines are slipping. Thus the impeller isn't firmly coupled to the engine crankshaft.

If the engine crankshaft is misaligned (from parallel and center with the drive shaft, this places a side load on the power takeoff and drive shaft splines and will cause abnormal wear inside the coupling as the engine rotates, the coupling is no longer able to transfer torque from the engine through the drive shaft and into the impeller, slipping occurs.

Normally that takes many hours of operation, probably near 1,000 or more, before the splines are no longer serviceable.

Aftermarket parts can sometimes be superior to factory parts. For instance, the factory might cheap out and use a low grade of steal to save a buck then coat it in rubber to avoid rusting. An aftermarket drive shaft might be made of stainless steel for instance, which won't corrode under most conditions.

Whatever is going on in your case, either the carbon seal isn't working properly to keep air from being sucked into the impeller, or it's possible your splines are worn and thus slipping.

There might be some perceptible amount of play in the splines normally but not a whole lot, not enough to allow the splines to lose coupling and slip. If you think the torque from the engine isn't being transferred to the impeller, the splines in the coupling and shaft might be worn out, an el-cheapo steel drive shaft might be made of soft steel that cannot take the engine torque, the splined end might strip off.

If I was making and selling a drive shaft, it wouldn't be a soft steel, and I'd try to use stainless if possible. Another thought, maybe seadoo couldn't use stainless for some reason other than just cost?

Sorry I don't have definitive answers for you but if I was you I'd consider if it's possible to remove the rubber and continue using the drive shaft assuming it's not worn out in the splines. If the splines are trashed then the engine coupler probably is as well, and both need to be replaced.

I was thinking your rubber coating on the shaft was delaminating and interfering with the carbon seal ability to keep air inside the bilge, but it's possible instead the shaft splines are toast.

There must be 1,000 ways to skin a kitty-cat.... (NOT that I would or have!)

Even sliding a section of nylon tubing tightly over the drive shaft might work if the diameter is too small and creating some kind of problem with keeping the carbon seal centered?

BTW, the carbon seal is lubricated and cooled by water inside the pump tunnel, it will overheat the rubber bellows and maybe other stuff if the engine is run too long out of water. I prefer the older seadoo carbon seal (like the one you have) for it's simplicity, not sure why seadoo "upgraded" except the rubber coating idea probably wasn't exactly brilliant.

The big nut on the drive shaft of the new design seems cumbersome although it might be superior, I don't have any idea.

Also, if the engine mounts are broken the engine will tend to move around in the bilge and this creates side-loading of the splines thus accelerating spline wear and difficulty in obtaining a good carbon ring seal (due to misalignment).

Anyway, check it out and try to determine the issue causing problems then work toward a solution. I hate to see people spend money on parts if it's unnecessary.
 
Looking back over the manual pages ( doing my head in) is there something different between these 2 shafts ( ie lengths, 2 piece shafts or something I'm not seeing) Mainly where the 2 red marks are at.
The 09-10 ( pwc supplement) shafts looks like they're way shorter the then the other one.
09-10 shaft manual page.jpg manual page, prior 09-10 shaft.jpg
2009-10 drive shaft..jpg
prior 09-10 shaft.jpg
 
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