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I'm lost with my carbs

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Albysure

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98 sportster 1800...

Ok last year I rebuilt the carb that is giving me issues...not fixed but a lot better....this week the other engine carb needed redone.....this carb never gives me issues always the other carb....so I took it off and damn it's a different style then the one giving me issues....this one has no fuel pump on it....but the other one has another fuel pump on it that is giving me issues..... Now remember my year has the external fuel pumps above the motor on a bracket....so is this my issue with this carb and engine or did seadoo make this this way?...... Or did somebody do this?


Thanks
 
Okay, that's a twin screw boat with one carb per motor, right?

If so, there are two remote fuel pumps, correct?

It's possible to mount a carb that has a fuel pump on it and not use the pump, so you have to tell us if you have two fuel pumps fueling one engine and only one fuel pump fueling the other?

Usually, it's not necessary to have two fuel pumps for one carb........ Unless, one of them is a "lift pump" to assist the primary fuel pump, but that seems odd one engine would not be symmetrical with the other.

Hmm, another interesting note is it looks like the water separator is on the pressure side of the fuel pump. I'm not sure I like that idea, I'd rather have it on the feed side to reduce the possibility of filling my bilge with fuel.
 
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Yes sorry twin 717 with single carb per engine.....

As far as 2 remote fuel pumps per motor I thought there was till I seem this carb....meaning the one giving me issues has the external fuel pump above the motor and one on the carb....

The other that I am now cleaning had the external fuel pump above the engine and not one on the carb...

Hope this will help ya more...

Thanks
 
Yes, you have three fuel pumps where there should only be two pumps. That's what I see by looking at the drawing of the fuel system.

I would probably not use the pump on the carb, you can just disconnect the pulse line and the pump will do nothing.
 
I have to look at it.... Not sure i can do that.... Because my pulse line runs back up to my external fuel pump.... I think... Not looking at it now.... Can I just find or order another piece to make it like the other carb... Basically can I remove the fuel pump on the carb?
 
Yes, you have the option to remove the fuel pump from the side of the carb, and install the normal plate in it's place. If that's what you decide, you might consider obtaining a used carb cheap and using the plate from it, then you'll have a spare carb on hand.

The fuel pump does nothing if it doesn't have a pulsu connection to the crankcase, the fuel just moves through it(in this case the fuel is pushed through). It will only pump if there's a crankcase pulse to move the fuel pump diaphragm.
 
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I do have a pulse from my crank case but it goes to my external fuel pump above the engine.... Then it goes through that and returns back to my carb into the pulse sport on the carb....where could I find a carb or the plate I need?

Thanks for your help and working this out
 
Do you think this would cause my hard starting in the water after it sits for some time?....... And it wants to die around 3500 rpm unless I pump the throttle then it's fine after that...
 
I do have a pulse from my crank case but it goes to my external fuel pump above the engine.... Then it goes through that and returns back to my carb into the pulse sport on the carb....where could I find a carb or the plate I need?

Thanks for your help and working this out

I think that's a super BN-40mm, not absolutely sure so you should verify this. It also has an accelerator pump on it, so there's one clue as to what it should have if it's complete.

I was thinking you could pick one up on ebay fairly cheap that came off a parted ski, may or not have the same jets but if it came from a 717 I'd assume it would. Sometimes the calibration could be different depending on the air box induction system, more air means more fuel but in general it should be the same. Verify it's set up correctly before installing it, of course. Meanwhile, you're only interested in the side plate so that's a quick swap. I bet you find the whole carb used on ebay for what you'd pay for the side plate new.

So, confirm the carb you need then search for it on ebay, maybe someone here has one, like minnetonka.

The pulse line from your crank case is connected to the pulse connection of the fuel pump body, this pulse pushes and pulls the internal diaphragm back and forth to move the fuel through the two internal check valves. The fuel is pulled through the inlet check valve as the diaphragm receives a negative pressure and then the fuel is pushed out of the outlet check valve as the diaphragm receives a positive pressure. The pulse signal is on the dry side of the fuel pump diaphragm and the two check valves are on the wet side where the fuel is pumped.

So, the fuel pump can't contribute anything if it doesn't receive the pulse action from the crankcase pulse line. You should have a pulse line that goes from the crankcase barb connector to the dry side of the fuel pump diaphragm for the respective carb. If the diaphragm receives the alternating pulse and the check valves are good(not leaking backwards), the pump should move the fuel to the carb.

The nice thing I like about having the pump on the carb is, most carb kits come with the diaphragm and valve parts to rebuild the pump, not sure though how your kits come but I'd want both sides the same too. If your external pumps are rebuildable, it's possible they use the same parts as the carb-mounted pump, I'm not sure, but if they did, that would be handy for you.

So if you're considering searching for a used carb, find out which one you need(Mikuni model number spec'd for your motor) and see if there's a ski that uses the same one (a 717 ski, there's tons of them in boneyards) that someone is selling the carb off of. Heck, you could even find another carb that has the fuel pump mounted on it's side and go that route, switching to on-carb pumps instead if externals. One way may have an advantage over the other in terms of cost to rebuild, so you may have options to consider.
 
Sounds good......yes you got my carb right.... From what I found ordering a new one I would just have to change 2 jets and my needle and seat.....the external fuel pumps can't be rebuilt from the kits.... But you can order a universal pump... I was lucky enough and my seadoo dealer had one and I put a new one on.... It worked great first time out.... But now I'm back to the same issue...I think having the 2 fuel pumps is slowing the fuel delivery down...just because the stall out around 3500 rpm...not sure...

Thanks
 
Do you think this would cause my hard starting in the water after it sits for some time?....... And it wants to die around 3500 rpm unless I pump the throttle then it's fine after that...

I'm glad you're looking into fixing this symptom, it sounds like fuel starvation. The old same stuff you read about here repeatedly, clena the fuel system and make sure there are no air leaks. If the fuel pump is sucking air or the pump valves aren't working (maybe worn out) then fuel starvation could be the result. Clogged internal fuel filters or reserve valve plugged with trash, any of these things can happen after years of sitting in the hot humid sun and hundreds of gallons of fuel move through the system. I bet you find the problem, it just takes going in there and I prefer starting at the tank and going all the way through to the carb, tear it down and shoot carb solvent through the two brass jets, clean it all out, chase with compressed air if you have it, and reassemble with new parts making sure all the factory sized jets, needle valve and seat are in good or new condition, the metering diaphragm is in good condition(or new) with no pinholes, the correct colored metering spring is on there as the seadoo service manual spec, all that stuff. New fuel line if there's any question, too.

There's a problem in the fuel system somewhere no doubt, it's just a matter of how you want to go about fixing it and how through you need to be. For all I know you've already done everything but the carb rebuild, maybe you did it 5 years ago and now it needs it again.

Di I think the hard starting is related to having the carb-side fuel pump? I doubt it, but I'd try to make sure it's set up to where at least you don't have two fuel pumps running at the same time, I really wouldn't want it that way if it were mine. I'd be okay with either one, but not both at the same time.

My guess is your carb needs help, but the root cause could be anything in the fuel system from the tank to the carb that's interfering with fuel delivery. If it's all old stuff that's half rotted then it's probably time for some new fuel line anyway. Kind of a judgment call on what's acceptable to you in terms of cost(including your time) verses how long it's been since this stuff was last done.
 
Thanks.....yea I have rebuilt the carbs 4 times now and the seadoo dealer once... Plus another pwc store.....same issue every time never changes symptoms....I talked to the owner and he told me he always had this issue...like you said I went through and replaced everything fuel related....I bet I'm like you, just want everything working perfect and installed right.....I don't know what to do......I guess I'm going to buy another carb with the fuel pump on it.... This way it will match the other side that has never gave me a issue.....

Thanks
 
I think having the 2 fuel pumps is slowing the fuel delivery down...just because the stall out around 3500 rpm...not sure...Thanks

It sounds like the infamous starvation issues we all will have eventually, I ran into this last year, the internal carb filters were full of trash and it still had the gray fuel lines on it. After going through all of it I still had a lean bog in mid range similar to your description, so I went up two sizes on the pilot jet b/c I'd already done everything else and confirmed air-tight fuel lines that were new and clean, I cleaned the internal carb passages and all that and it still was lean so I threw larger jets in there and the lean bog disappeared completely, it has just a hair of rich four stroking now, so I probably went further fattening up the mixture than I needed to but on a 2-stroke I'd rather be too fat than too lean and it runs and starts very well, so I'm happy with how it is now.

I'm not suggesting you need to change from the factory calibrations like I did, I'm just explaining what I found, and that was the factory calibrations may have been adequate when the engine and carbs were new, or barely adequate as EPA emissions restrictions were putting the squeeze on 2-stroke engines up until the death-nell of 2010, so I'm not too surprised that larger jets resolved the issue in my case.

But I made this change only after going through the entire fuel system, and I went through checking every fitting for air leaks, several times double checking things since once I put it back together it was still lean.
 
Sounds good.....ill go through it one more time.....if nothing changes I'm gonna invest in a new carb without the pump....might have to look at the jet idea if I can find a plate and that doesn't work still....


Thanks for the help
 
I guess I'm going to buy another carb with the fuel pump on it.... This way it will match the other side that has never gave me a issue.....Thanks

Yeah, might want to pull that carb apart that was running good until recently and take a look at how it's calibrated, you might find it's got a one size larger jet or something. And a big wad of gum in the internal filter.

As far as the fuel pumps go, I was just pointing out that you've got options to consider, sometimes the stuff you get from ebay can be corroded depending on where it came from(like salt) and plans can change but I like the on-carb fuel pumps myself because I can take them apart and look over the valves, put new ones in if they need them(951 has one fuel pump on mag carb feeding both carbs, I have a stack of new fuel pump parts left over from rebuilding the carbs), slap the thing back together and go boating.
 
Yea I like your point.... Gonna work on it after work tomorrow and see what I can find online as of carbs... Thanks for the help
 
And don't be afraid to put the next size larger pilot jets in there if it's running lean and has been gone through several times but never ran mid range. A lot of people describe the same thing you're describing and I think if they just go up one jet size they'll get there.

You need to know for sure which carb you're working on though, and confirm you started from factory settings, because a pilot jet change probably won't help starting issues, that's more related to the metering diaphragm spring tension being too strong assuming there's not enough fuel, or a problem with the needle/seat if the crankcase floods. You might have the incorrect spring in there and yout pop-off is too high, so I'm assuming you've checked your pop-off. Normally I don't think you should need to change pop-off but hard starting can be due to lack of fuel (or too much, like flooding) and a pop that's too high can cause that (so can gum/trash in carburetor, or a hole in the diaphragm). Your one carb ran great until it didn't, so I'd copy that setup for the other side, pilot jet. metering needle seat size, and spring (there are four different springs), can be confirmed by measuring pop-off. Pop-off is measured without the metering diaphragm installed.

You can get it going, but not if you don't make a change to the calibration, or find some kind of physical problem. Someone put a carb from another ski on there apparently at some time and it ran well until now, so you know that calibration works, just a matter of transferring that to the other problematic carb and finding out what happened to the good-running carb.
 
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