Engine overhaul recommendations?

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GT80

GT80

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Had a problem recently with my 2000 GTX and eventually found out it was just faulty spark plugs. In the process of troubleshooting though, I did a compression check and got 110/95. Runs fine now but I'm thinking it's getting about time for an overhaul. The engine has 189 hours on it now and I'll probably put another 10-15 on it this Summer. So my question is this. Should I just plan to just do a top end rebuild this Winter or do I need to dig deeper to have a totally reliable ski? Granted it's 13 years old, but it looks like new and I maintain my stuff well. I bought it 4 years ago and the previous owner also seemed to have maintained it well but I know her teenage kids rode it hard. I spend most of my time on it at about half throttle and do some WOT jaunts from time to time. My wife and I often take 40 mile trips upriver and I want a reliable boat that won't leave us stranded. The first thing I did when I bought it was get rid of all those gray fuel lines. I also changed the crankcase oil a couple years ago per these instructions. It was a bit dirty but not too bad and all of it was still there. I want to keep this boat for several more years and really want reliable service from it. What all do you recommend? Thanks!
 
I know that 200 hours is pretty much the industry standard for rebuild time. That compression is veryyyyyy low. The GTX has the 950 I beleive and it should be around 150 per hole if im not mistaken. Either way you are on borrowed time. If you are going to rebuild the top end just remember, the bottom end is also 14 years old, and has the same amount of hours as the top end. I would recomend a full rebuild and get yourself another 200 hours out of what sounds like a pretty well maintained ski.
 
I'm just in the process of putting my 951 back together from my 2000 GTX. Do not just do a top end. I pulled mine apart just after buying it (400$) it ran, had 130/228 compression (perfect is 135), but i was worried about the bottom end. Sure enough 2 bearings were on their way out in the crank, and the sealed bearings on the CB shaft were loosing all their grease.

Get a rebuilt crank, gasket kit, and a top end kit (heard good things about fullbore) Mine had good compression and good OEM pistons, so i just honed the cylinders and put new rings on the pistons with a new/rebuilt crank. And rebuilt CB shaft

Or send yours out for a full rebuild. Up to you. SES has good reviews, but slow turn around time in the summer. It all depends on your mechanical ability and if you trust in others working on your toys.
 
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blairwill4 said:
I know that 200 hours is pretty much the industry standard for rebuild time. That compression is veryyyyyy low. The GTX has the 950 I beleive and it should be around 150 per hole if im not mistaken. Either way you are on borrowed time. If you are going to rebuild the top end just remember, the bottom end is also 14 years old, and has the same amount of hours as the top end. I would recomend a full rebuild and get yourself another 200 hours out of what sounds like a pretty well maintained ski.
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a seadoo 951 motor compression should be 130 psi. Not 150... That would be too high!
 
Sorry, meant to quote - BiRkS_ on this but I welcome comments from anyone.

Can you point me somewhere that will give me a list of parts I would need for the bottom end rebuild? I know you said crank and gaskets already. Bearings, seals, and any other components? If I'm going that far I want to cover it all. I would probably go with fullbore for the top end and gaskets based on your and others' recommendations.

I've rebuilt 4-stroke motorcycle engines before from the crank up (Suzuki TL1000 v-twin and Kawasaki 650 i-4 to be specific) but I've never delved into 2-strokes so this will be a learning experience for me. I do have the tools and ability to do it (if I don't have the tool I typically make it :) ) and no, I don't trust others working on my toys.
 
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My bad. still 110/95 is pretty low. I think hes spot on with being ready for a rebuild. Especially at those hours.
 
GT80 said:
Can you point me somewhere that will give me a list of parts I would need for the bottom end rebuild? I know you said crank already. I would probably go with fullbore for the top end and gaskets based on other's recommendations.

I've rebuilt 4-stroke motorcycle engines before from the crank up (Suzuki TL1000 v-twin and Kawasaki 650 i-4 to be specific) but I've never delved into 2-strokes so this will be a learning experience for me but I have the tools and ability to do it. And no, I don't trust others working on my toys.
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It is nice to do the work yourself, but IMHO parts will quicly add up, along with your time. And as we all know our time is valuable. Seadoo Engine Shop, Along with Short Block Technologies both warranty their engines for 1 or 2 yeards depending on which model you get. Just my suggestion, price out all parts and compare it to pay one of them and receive a warranty. It just might be closer than you think. I personally have nothing but good things to say about SBT. I currently have one in my 96 xp. They have to know what theyre doing by this point because A theyre still in business and B theyve rebuild thousands of these by now.
 
GT80

Here is what i found. Me being in Canada, I was looking at close to 1600$ with duty, and shipping, taxes all in if i sent it for rebuild. Guys in the US are looking at 1300? or so?

So for me, I went ahead and priced out parts. Took almost a month, but I'll narrow it down for you. I like OEM cranks if possible, but they can be pricy. SHS powersports has a great deal on OEM cranks if you are in the states. That was about $400. My friend got a WSM crank for 299$ but I far prefer OEM, but if you maintain your ski and use good oil, both cranks will do fine. I only needed rings, so i went WSM 35$ per piston. You will need fullbore pricing.. i think its $395 for top end? make sure you get new piston circlips. thats 5$ you can't skimp on. Counter balance shaft i paid 140 to have it done. OEM bearings and seals. Buddy charged 70$ for labour. If you have a shop press, you can do it yourself. Next time I will. Full gasket set. PWC engine has them for like 98$ To seal the cases, Threebond 1211. Its like 20$ a tube, but soo worth it. Loctite blue for most fastners, some lithium grease for seals. My total bill (with 200$ of shipping for the crank-stupid, yes I'm fighting with UPS on that..) just over 800$ Basically half of what it would cost me to have another shop do mine. So IMO, it is worth to build it yourself. You know exactly what went into the engine, and you know everything is right. Yes time is money, but if you have the parts. 3 evenings and its ready to drop in. Hardest part is prepping the mating surfaces. 3M disks on the angle die grinder work wonders!
 
I have to agree. I'd rather built it myself. Took jetskigoodies and myself about 6-7 hours putting my engine together. Had it together in one day. That's us taking our time and going by the book on every thing. I will have about 8-900 into the complete motor with all the little ends and a rebuilt OEM crank from SHS.

I took us about a two sold weeks to get all the parts and get it done. How long does SES or SBT take? I'm assuming you have to send you engine back first so that takes up more time.
 
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- BiRkS_ said:
GT80

Here is what i found. Me being in Canada, I was looking at close to 1600$ with duty, and shipping, taxes all in if i sent it for rebuild. Guys in the US are looking at 1300? or so?

So for me, I went ahead and priced out parts. Took almost a month, but I'll narrow it down for you. I like OEM cranks if possible, but they can be pricy. SHS powersports has a great deal on OEM cranks if you are in the states. That was about $400. My friend got a WSM crank for 299$ but I far prefer OEM, but if you maintain your ski and use good oil, both cranks will do fine. I only needed rings, so i went WSM 35$ per piston. You will need fullbore pricing.. i think its $395 for top end? make sure you get new piston circlips. thats 5$ you can't skimp on. Counter balance shaft i paid 140 to have it done. OEM bearings and seals. Buddy charged 70$ for labour. If you have a shop press, you can do it yourself. Next time I will. Full gasket set. PWC engine has them for like 98$ To seal the cases, Threebond 1211. Its like 20$ a tube, but soo worth it. Loctite blue for most fastners, some lithium grease for seals. My total bill (with 200$ of shipping for the crank-stupid, yes I'm fighting with UPS on that..) just over 800$ Basically half of what it would cost me to have another shop do mine. So IMO, it is worth to build it yourself. You know exactly what went into the engine, and you know everything is right. Yes time is money, but if you have the parts. 3 evenings and its ready to drop in. Hardest part is prepping the mating surfaces. 3M disks on the angle die grinder work wonders!
Click to expand...

So are you saying that all I may need is new rings to restore compression or did you already have new cylinders so all you needed we're rings? Where did your buddy find the crank for $299? I only use Sea Doo XP-S synthetic oil but I'm pretty sure the previous owners used the generic aftermarket stuff.

Hoping this thing runs fine through this season but I'll be posting again this Winter when I tear the engine down. I do have the manual but haven't looked at the section(s) concerning rebuild. Sounds like prepping the mating surfaces is critical so I'll be checking back with you on that. Thanks for all the info.
 
No in your case, your best bet is to get a top end kit from fullbore. 95 PSI is low. I had pefect compression still, but i questioned the PO's maintenance. Said it sat outside for 2 years without winterizing (other than blowing the water out of the lines) My cylinders were flawless and were well within spec (theres a wear limit in the rebuild section for both piston and cylinder clearances) But for you, I'd get the fullbore top end as you may have scoring. WSM crank came from PWC ENGINE. http://www.pwcengine.com/products/Seadoo-951-Carbed-Rebuilt-Crankshaft.html#

If you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask. I've taken some pictures of my build, posted some, I'll post some of the ones when its all coming back together on my other thread
 
If I can come away with around $800 for a complete rebuild I'll be more than happy. Last thing I want to do is wait until I have a failure and need a new block. I'm all about preventive maintenance and the only reason I went with one of these older 2-strokes was because I can more easily work on them myself. Poo on these newer 4-strokes. Thanks again for your help thus far. I'll be sure to post my findings later when I tear it down.
 
GT80 said:
Where did your buddy find the crank for $299? .
Click to expand...

I got my OEM crank for $351 and some change. You do need to pay a 200 core up front with it but I had my refund back the same day they recieved it in. Jen at SHS was very helpful in the transaction.
 
Thanks again for all the replies. I have another question. What specialty tools will I absolutely NEED for engine removal/rebuild/reinstall? I do have the manual and I know it lists the tools required for each operation but some of them you can usually get by without. I'm wondering about tools that aren't common, ones I can't make myself, and ones I just won't be able to avoid buying to do this job.
 
My list: Torque wrench, wire wheel (cleaning off bolts), thread chasers (cleaning up threads) And i wish i bought the special wrench for the exhaust nut on the pipe. I figured after you can get to it after removing carbs, but that tool makes it look so much easier!

Another thing you have to ensure, is pristene gasket surfaces. You want to be able to eat off of those surfaces. I use a angle die grinder with the 3M mild abrasive pads. Works wornders. I also use a little high temp RTV on the base gaskets, just a thin film, especially between cylinders. That little bridge, at least in Rotax sled engines was known for blowing out the gasket.
 
Torque wrench, wire wheel, thread chasers, angled die grinder, CHECK! Need to look into the 3M mild abrasive pads.

Thanks Seadoobuddy for the link to that thread, that does help (and was easily searchable, sorry for being lazy). So what I got from Seadoobuddy and that thread he linked to was the 15mm wrench for that tough to reach exhaust bolt, which I can apparently make, alignment tool, impeller tool, flywheel puller, pump bearing tools, connector pin tool, and drive boot pusher. Tool prices starting to add up now. :)
 
FORGET THE ANGLE DIE GRINDER

That has NO place around one of these engines, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you need to clean off a gasket surface, use a straight blade CAREFULLY. You can get the bulk off normally without gouging the material, then to get the remainder stand it on edge and you can flick the blade back and forth to get the rest. Then wipe it down with lacquer thinner or acetone. The cases are perfectly machined surfaces, an angle grinder with a 3M pad will remove material and roll the edges over, you do not want to distort that surface. When you are done on the case halves you should still be able to see the machining marks from when the fly cut the case, base gaskets are simple to clean with the blade. Perhaps following up the surface with some 400 grit if needed, but wrapped around a square block of aluminum to keep the paper flat.


REPEAT---LOSE THE ANGLE GRINDER. It's not your friend, it will make you lazy.

Sorry Birks, didn't mean to call you out or flame you in any way I just don't believe in those tools for these engines.
 
I made a suggestion earlier in this thread, unless you're a Dr Honda or a Racerxxx, have a machine shop, or know a machine shop you can trust, you're better off with a reman engine. Remember 2 year no-fault warranty.

Lou
 
Racerxxx I couldn't agree with you more regarding the angle grinder and discs. When I was having some engine work done on my boat, the guy at the machine shop said the same thing. Don't use a die grinder with those discs cause it will remove too much material from the surface and you will get leaks. I use a razor blade to scrape it off and clean up afterwards with a bit of emory cloth and wipe it down with brake cleaner. Good to go.
 
LouDoo said:
I made a suggestion earlier in this thread, unless you're a Dr Honda or a Racerxxx, have a machine shop, or know a machine shop you can trust, you're better off with a reman engine. Remember 2 year no-fault warranty.

Lou
Click to expand...

Duly noted. Thanks. Either way I go, I'm planning to be the one pulling the engine and reinstalling it.
 
I started to read and I was thinking about your compression. I am not sure and someone on here can chyme in if I am wrong but I know on 4 strokes, you want the engine running for a little bit before you test compression and if you cant get it running you want to drop a little oil down on the piston to really get a good reading. Also in my experience I had a motor with low compression and called sbt, they told me what to buy, (some solvent stuff at advanced auto parts). I followed the instructions and like 30$ later I had good compression again. It was carbon build up or something like that. You could give SBT a call and ask for tech support. Tell them you are thinking of getting a motor but you want to make sure before you spend the money and they will give you advice and its the guys that are actually rebuilding motors all the time that you talk to.
 
Well, since my compression tester is really old and hasn't been used that much I decided to go get a new one today to verify my readings. Where the old tester read 110/95 (same readings with cold and warm engine) the new one reads 132/122 cold. I'll check it again later with the engine warmed but it sounds like I may be in the clear for now!
 
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