Crappy first time out on the boat.....and now it doesnt start. help please...

[rjcress]

This forum is an absolute wealth of knowledge and certainly will be able to walk you through whatevery you need help with.

Its going to be about as easy can be if you are mechanicaly inclined at all. Nice big engine bay with a small motor. Good Luck!!!!

I've just been through this process, am reasonably mechanically inclined, have formal training in wrenching (on cars and aircraft, not watercraft), was extra anal in reading the shop manual and posts on this site before and during my install, and I still managed to make a critical error that resulted in a fried engine after only 2 hours. So I'll offer a more cautious perspective.

If you are a very detail oriented person, are willing to do LOTS of reading and research, have the time and interest to do the job (probably 6 hours for an experienced mechanic, multiples longer for someone who has to learn about all of the various SeaDoo systems as they go) and can handle some level of risk, then swapping an engine yourself might be for you. If not, then you should take it to a shop and have them do it. I haven't seen a lot of patience in the posts about the broken stranded boat, which is understandable. If a self-swap is approached in the same manner, I doubt it will end well.

 

[rjcress]

RJCRESS mentione there are other considerations other than price. What should these be other than ease of sending them my core and post sales support? Am I missing something?

Just saw this...
Some other considerations I already mentioned.
For me, I considered the speed of the turn-around on the engine rebuild and how that fit my plans, what type of warranty (true "no questions asked, no fault" vs the pages of fine print that some shops have), cost of shipping, feedback on the forum from folks who actually used the shops I was considering, what support they offered during my install process (ie. could I call them with questions?), what level of parts do they use (chinese knock-off, OEM, upgraded).

Lots of folks swear by SBT, and I understand that they are one of, if not THE quickest option for getting a working engine back. However, I also read a lot of stuff about STB using lower quality parts that they have made "off shore", and processes like milling the combustion chambers that are non-standard. I have no direct experience with SBT for engines. I did buy Blacktip mats from them, and one piece was missing. They were quick to cut that piece and send it to me.

Anyhow, there are various threads on here about which shop to use, some with objective assessments, some with hearsay, some with "I bought it so it must be the best"... I recommend you wade through them, call and talk to the ones that make your short list, and use your judgement to pick a shop YOU are comfortable with... or just have someone who has experience do it for you.

 

[rjcress]

In the meantime, with me not being able to crank the engine by hand, and having a bunch of oil in the bilge, i am being realistic and am pretty sure the engine is seized.

You did check to make sure nothing is jammed in the jet pump, preventing the engine from rotating, right?

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

Hmm well thinking about this...you said your mechanic replaced a rave valve? If your engine had been bored out before and the mechanic didn't trim the rave valve it could have caused a catastrophic failure like this....

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Something in the pump will prevent the motor from turning but not to leaking oil.
I assume an oil hose cracked or came loose from it's fitting. Maybe even the tank grommet on the bottom.

How much oil is still in the oil tank?
I had hairline cracks at the "seam" and it would leak down to half full.
If there is still a major amount left in, then you probably have a different problem than "no oil".

Did try to turn the driveshaft by hand or with a wrench of some sort?
check the pump for an object or maybe a rusted bearing.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Hmm well thinking about this...you said your mechanic replaced a rave valve? If your engine had been bored out before and the mechanic didn't trim the rave valve it could have caused a catastrophic failure like this....

Ahhhhh, good point.

 

[ericbesso]

when he says there is more to consider than price he is correct. The premium engines have a 2 year warranty and probably use a little better parts than the standard engine with the one year warranty. Also how mechanically able are you. With an automotive shop you should definitely have every tool you need. You basically need a metric socket set with extensions and metric set of torx and hex bit sockets and some opened ended wrenches.

It really isnt too terribly hard but for a novice wrencher I can see where people could get overwhelmed

I thought he meant between the companies that there was more to consider not the choice of engine. Will most likely go with the premium one since I will be able to sleep soundly for 2 years knowing my engine is good.

 

[ericbesso]

Hmm well thinking about this...you said your mechanic replaced a rave valve? If your engine had been bored out before and the mechanic didn't trim the rave valve it could have caused a catastrophic failure like this....

Would it cause oil to piss out everywhere? Quite honestly that would be the best case scenario for me because in that case they would be 100% liable lol

As for the oil left in the tank, there is not much most is in the bilge

I have not yet checked the jet pump, will wait til tomorrow, but with oil everywhere other thna in the tank I highly doubt there is something jammed in the pump but I will be sure to check.


@ Rjcress, the impatience in my posts was due to the fact that I literally called everywhere I could think of to get the boat out of there and I was not getting anywhere. called the rafting place near by that operates from the boat launch, they said call the marina, marina said call the coast guard, coast guard gave me another guys number, next guy gave me another guys number, that guy gave me one of his clients numbers, that guy gave me hs friends number....and friend was too scared to use his ski to tow in the current so didnt rly wanna do it...then went to ask the cops, fire department and nobody was willing or able to do it. It was more frustration then impatience. /rant lol

 

[ericbesso]

UPDATE: Drove around to 3 different places to get an opinion and a written report on what caused the engine to seize. First guy was helpful but not licenced so couldnt do the written report. We found pieces of aluminim, chunks actually, in the bottom of the boat, on the starboard side under the black intake. Couldnt see well so dont know exactly where they are from, but that is not a good sign lol.

While we were going around to different places, my luck (or lack thereof) didnt fail me, and the tire on the trailer blew! Fun stuff lol

Anyways, after going to 3 different places, nobody wanted to get involved (we were warned it was a tight knit community) so I just phoned the place that did the initial inspection and repairs, and explained politely the situation, and asked if we could try and find a solution together.

The guy I spoke to was quite friendly, and told me to bring the boat in and that they would look at it. (This was yesterday).

Wasnt able to get the truck today so phoned back and left a message for the guy to call me back. He finally called me back, i told him id see him monday and he said no problem. But then he told me that the mechanic said he told me about a different problem with the motor. This is where it gets fishy. Cause they neve warned me or my friend, with whom I bought the boat, of anything additional.

The whole purpose of bringing the boat there was to make sure the engine was good before we bought it. I had the other repairs they told us done, and there is no way we would have bought the boat had they told us something else was wrong. He's aying they warned us the engine was making a weird sound which is totally untrue.

Also, when I inspected the RAVE valve that they changed, the old one was chipped and had a sizeable piece missing out of it. If this snapped off in the cylinder could this cause a catastrophic failure?

Anyways that is my update as of now.

Will keep you guys posted.

Thanks again,

Eric

 

[ocod]

UPDATE: Drove around to 3 different places to get an opinion and a written report on what caused the engine to seize. First guy was helpful but not licenced so couldnt do the written report. We found pieces of aluminim, chunks actually, in the bottom of the boat, on the starboard side under the black intake. Couldnt see well so dont know exactly where they are from, but that is not a good sign lol.

While we were going around to different places, my luck (or lack thereof) didnt fail me, and the tire on the trailer blew! Fun stuff lol

Anyways, after going to 3 different places, nobody wanted to get involved (we were warned it was a tight knit community) so I just phoned the place that did the initial inspection and repairs, and explained politely the situation, and asked if we could try and find a solution together.

The guy I spoke to was quite friendly, and told me to bring the boat in and that they would look at it. (This was yesterday).

Wasnt able to get the truck today so phoned back and left a message for the guy to call me back. He finally called me back, i told him id see him monday and he said no problem. But then he told me that the mechanic said he told me about a different problem with the motor. This is where it gets fishy. Cause they neve warned me or my friend, with whom I bought the boat, of anything additional.

The whole purpose of bringing the boat there was to make sure the engine was good before we bought it. I had the other repairs they told us done, and there is no way we would have bought the boat had they told us something else was wrong. He's aying they warned us the engine was making a weird sound which is totally untrue.

Also, when I inspected the RAVE valve that they changed, the old one was chipped and had a sizeable piece missing out of it. If this snapped off in the cylinder could this cause a catastrophic failure?

Anyways that is my update as of now.

Will keep you guys posted.

Thanks again,

Eric

Def a no win for you.
Sorry about the misfortune!

A hole through the side of the case would cause the oil everywhere....

If you had a piece missing from the first RAVE its likely to cause failure afterwards.
But who knows at this point.

 

[ericbesso]

UPDATE 2: So brought the boat to the shop yesterday and spoke to the guy and they said they would look at it and call me back within a day or 2.

So today he calls me back, says the crankshaft seized, blew a whole in the case. He also tells me that on his copy of the work order they wrote down that the pistons and cylinder had scoring.

Nobody ever told me that and I would not have bought the boat knowing that......I told him that if its on his copy of the work order, it should be on mine too and it isnt. We went back and forth for a good half hour, him trying to convince me it was my fault and telling me i didnt put oil (i told him there would be no oil in the bilge if there was no oil in the boat...) etc basically trying every trick in the book to get me to drop it. I politely explained that my actions aka getting some of the repairs done and buying the boat,do not match what he is saying happened (them having told me about the engine), and that if we could not find a solution I would pursue it a different way.

He ended up telling me he would go talk to his boss and would get back to me.

He called me back and said an engine costs them $15xx.00 and normally they would sell it to me for $18xx.00, plus 7 hours labor and total it would cost me usually with taxes around $2400. They are offering to do it form me for $1000.

Do these costs sound reasonable? 7 Hours seems short compared to what the other shops told me.

Anyways thanks again for the help guys!

 

[rjcress]

UPDATE 2: ...He called me back and said an engine costs them $15xx.00 and normally they would sell it to me for $18xx.00, plus 7 hours labor and total it would cost me usually with taxes around $2400. They are offering to do it form me for $1000.

Do these costs sound reasonable? 7 Hours seems short compared to what the other shops told me.

Anyways thanks again for the help guys!

Very interesting.
Sounds like they think you have a case and that they dropped the ball. Them offering that big of a discount is pretty much an admission of guilt, IMHO. And the statement that they noted a significant issue, but failed to tell you... if that is true then they screwed up. If it isn't true and they are trying to cover themselves, then that is not smart, as they just admitted that they found a significant issue. They would have been better off to say they didn't find any issue, if they were just worried about CYA. I don't think you would have any sort of case in court if they said they did a thorough check and found no issues.
I don't know if they have any legal liability, even if they did neglect to tell you that they noted that the engine had issues... but you said you already got legal advice.

At the end of the day, I wonder how relevant their offer is anyway.
You have an offer to get you back on the water for $1,000 from a shop that I'm guessing you don't trust, and they probably don't really care for you either. Just based on this, I'm not sure i'd want them doing the job if I were in your position.

Another option, maybe... they say the engine cost them $1,500. For what? Are they going to rebuild it, send it out to be rebuilt, replace with a used (non-rebuilt) engine, or something else? If they send the engine to SES for rebuild, the standard options would be $840, and about the same from SBT. Even with shipping added that wouldn't be more than $1k. If the shop is willing to install an engine that cost them $1,500 for $1k, would they install an engine that cost them $1k from SES or SBT engine for $500?

I'm wondering if they are inflating their cost of the engine so you think you are getting a deal, then actually charging you their cost for the engine ($1k)... basically giving you free removal and installation.

Also, I don't know what additional cost the hole in the case would incur in a rebuild, so maybe that is why their quoting $1,500 for the engine.

Anyhow, none of that matters if you don't trust them and don't want them doing the work.

Edit: Oh, you also asked about the time required. I've only removed and installed a 787 from a '96 challenger twice. I've removed one other partially disassembled SD engine from a GTX, but have no other SD experience. On the last one it took me about 2 hours to remove and crate the engine for shipment. Add an hour for pressure washing the engine bay to get all of the oil out. I REALLY took my time installing it, reading and re-reading the shop manual for every step, and it took me about 6 hours to re-install it. I think that I could have done it from memory in 3 hours, but went by the book double and triple checking everything. So I would expect that an experienced shop with the right tools should be able to do an engine swap in 5-6 hours. That is consistent with what I've heard the experts like Dr. Honda say.

 

[blairwill4]

IMHO see what the warranty is on the motor. If they are willing to give you a no questions asked warranty for at least one year, that's going to be cheaper and easier than SES, or SBT. If they don't wanna offer the warranty then id run because theyre going to do a shit job. But youre moving in the right direction they did basically admit they were wrong by offering the large discount.

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

I guess I'm in the minority about the shop really being at fault. They knew there was minor scoring on one of the pistons, but honestly a lot of these older motors have a little scoring on the pistons and can run fine. Obviously the motor wasn't perfect, but it did run and you can never just tell when they are going to blow. If they are willing to put in a new motor for $1000, that is a steal and I would take them up on that offer especially if you aren't handy with a wrench. I don't really see that they have any legal liability in this case because the work they did didn't have an impact on the motor blowing more than likely. Sorry bud, you'll get it going tho. These motors just all have a limit on them and yours just happened to hit it once you got it

 

[rjcress]

I guess I'm in the minority about the shop really being at fault. They knew there was minor scoring on one of the pistons, but honestly a lot of these older motors have a little scoring on the pistons and can run fine. Obviously the motor wasn't perfect, but it did run and you can never just tell when they are going to blow. If they are willing to put in a new motor for $1000, that is a steal and I would take them up on that offer especially if you aren't handy with a wrench. I don't really see that they have any legal liability in this case because the work they did didn't have an impact on the motor blowing more than likely. Sorry bud, you'll get it going tho. These motors just all have a limit on them and yours just happened to hit it once you got it

That is pretty much what I was thinking until they offered him $1k fix. I think that strongly implies that they feel some level of responsibility. However, I can honestly see both sides of this. Situations like this don't have any winners. Sucks for everyone involved.

 

[ericbesso]

Havent waded through all the answers yet, that is what I am going to use the time in class for later

But the reason SBT/SES is not an option as far as I am aware is that the case has a hole in it, and SBT said it is 800$ more since I dont have a rebuildable cores making the engine $1600 plus shipping for the core and shipping for the engine to canada. Phoned SES and left a message, waiting for a call back.

 

[suke]

That is pretty much what I was thinking until they offered him $1k fix. I think that strongly implies that they feel some level of responsibility. However, I can honestly see both sides of this. Situations like this don't have any winners. Sucks for everyone involved.

It could be they'd rather not deal with any litigation. Guilty or not litigation they'll have to get an attorney, or pay their attorney for hours worked. Which could and likely would = larger than $1k in a motor. If I'm the business and I've got some one that is trying to drag me to court and possibly cost me more money I'd rather just bite my tongue, fix it, eat some of the cost, have a happy customer in the end, and be done with it.

 

[ericbesso]

Like I said above, SBT/SES is not an option as far as I am aware is that the case has a hole in it, and SBT said it is 800$ more since I dont have a rebuildable core making the engine $1600 plus shipping for the core and shipping for the engine to canada. Phoned SES and left a message, waiting for a call back.
[MENTION=56957]rjcress[/MENTION], to me it is not a trust issue, i have no mistrust in them. As far as im concerned it was a mistake, the mechanic forget or overlooked telling me something, and I am fine with them being willing to fix it. I was never rude and neither were they, and I never threatened litigation, they were actually the ones who brought up court trying to make me think they are well seasoned in court and i would lose.
[MENTION=63503]blairwill4[/MENTION] I will def be asking about a warranty, I am going there tomorrow, in person, to hammer out the details about what exactly they are doing, and any warranties etc.
[MENTION=43106]CReynoldsMIZ[/MENTION] their error was basically that they did an inspection, found issues that they did not inform me about, told me about the issues that could be fixed, accepted payment for those repairs, and through their negligence i ended up purchasing a boat that I would never have purchased if it were not for their relatively positive inspection an had I know about the other issues.
[MENTION=59515]suke[/MENTION] I never threatened litigation, they borught it up first and even then I said that was my least favorite option.

 

[El Toro 33809]

Cutting to the chase, or whatever the expression is..... If they are willing to install a rebuilt engine with a warranty for $1000, that's a fair deal.

 

[smc0922]

1.) get a WRITTEN proposal from them.
2.) make sure it lists what is being done, rebuilt in house, used, SBT/ses rebuilt, etc.
3.) warranty statement in writing.

Clearly if there is a chipped rave valve then they should foot the entire bill. It was cleaned and one replaced- therefore it was inspected if they followed the proper service procedure. Also that chip went somewhere..... I feel they are 100% liable, and it should be repaired properly at no charge.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

On those older 787 motors, there is a counterbalance shaft that is driven by the crank and lives in its own little cavity. Back then, that cavity had no oil fill plug. They filled it once at the factory with some oil (most of which in fact runs out into the PTO crank case) and just expect the fuel/oil to lubricate that compartment everafter. It's a flawed and idiotic design. I don't know why they produced engines without that drain/fill plug because there are casting points where they are supposed to be. On all my engines that I rebuild, I ALWAYS put a drain and fill plug. ANYWAY, if you ever get water into the motor, it always settles to the lowest point, that being your counterbalance cavity. It will stay there and screw up the lubrication of the big gear and bearings. It's been evidenced that once these bearings wear out, they can seize and make big holes in blocks. There would have been no way for the mechanic to check for water in that compartment without pulling the motor, ripping it apart and turning it over. What perplexes me is that you have oil everywhere. This suggests that you somehow punctured your Rotary Valve oil cavity. In the center of your engine, there is a gear on your crankshaft that drives the rotary valve. These gears are in a perpetual oil bath. I think it would take one hell of a bearing seizure to break the block to the point where it would rupture that oil bath cavity, but it's not out of the question.

Personally, I don't think the poor mechanic knew what he was getting into and what all can go wrong with these old 787s. IMO, they're a ticking time bomb. The scored pistons are not a big deal and would not have caused a problem like this (unless your piston literally came apart), but the chipped rave valve is a big red flag. Unless they could find that piece in the exhaust system, you can't rule out that it's not elsewhere in the motor. Also, like someone else posted, if the engine was bored to .5 or greater, the rave valve needs to be modified to not hit the piston. I've never tried to put a non-clearanced rave into a bored out cylinder, so I'm not even sure it would start under this condition. It is very easy to pull off the head and look at the pistons. If they have a .5 stamped on the piston, it's oversized.

Personally, I think if they'll replace that engine for $1k, I'd take it! You will not get a better deal anywhere. If you have a choice, I recommend sourcing a motor from SES as I feel they do a better job of building their cranks (american bearings, not welded webbings, 2 oil holes on top/bottom of c-rods). But in any case, a new motor should last you at least a few years IF and I do stress IF your fuel system is in good shape and you keep oil in the tank. If your carbs are clogged, or out of adjustment and you run that engine lean, you'll be paddling to shore again. Keep an eye on those spark plugs and make sure you avoid lean conditions. Anyway, that's my rant. Good luck!

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

Ticking time bombs? I know one of my 96xps still has its original engine in it in fine condition and I know many people here and personally whose original 787 still works great and it's been 17 years since they came out

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I must say I'm rather envious. That has not been mine or anybody's I know experience :/ The biggest problem in my opinion is the Raves. I've seen several motors where raves break apart and fall into the engine. I bought a new set of raves and housings from SBT and they lasted a season before one of them started leaking black goo and melting rave caps. I know they're a wear item, but $200/season is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. I love these motors and they'd be AWESOME if they weren't little Gremlin Hives.

 

[Guest_User]

Ticking time bombs? I know one of my 96xps still has its original engine in it in fine condition and I know many people here and personally whose original 787 still works great and it's been 17 years since they came out

yes, time bombs... all 2 strokes are time bombs, they actually run the best right before they blow! any high performance 2 stroke pushing good power out of relatively small CC`s is a bomb indeed...lol...
my 1300 ran flawlessly until the exhaust port decided to snag a ring and kaboom!
most untouched 787`s or any other engine for that matter will run great for years provided they are cared for well...

I must say I'm rather envious. That has not been mine or anybody's I know experience :/ The biggest problem in my opinion is the Raves. I've seen several motors where raves break apart and fall into the engine. I bought a new set of raves and housings from SBT and they lasted a season before one of them started leaking black goo and melting rave caps. I know they're a wear item, but $200/season is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. I love these motors and they'd be AWESOME if they weren't little Gremlin Hives.

I can`t agree here. How do you know your cylinder`s are not beating up the new guillotine`s? or housings? in a lot of cases the slot or groove gets worn excessively causing the valve to flutter, hang up, or delay opening. leaking oil could be from the shaft hole being oblong or simply a loose or lost retention spring on the bellows, and even a smooshed O ring seal... there are oversized valves to fit excessively worn cylinders, but also don`t expect these to last a long time.
melting adjusters or caps is in indication of excessive blow by getting past the shaft hole/seal...