Checking counterbalance oil in 951 DI

[nhmort]

How do you really check the counterbalance oil?

Everything is so tight in the hull that I don't see how it's even possible to see the hole let alone get the tool to remove the screw.

Any advice?

Thanks

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

There's a tube that connects to the nipple on the plug for DI, you have to remove that tube from the nipple in order to remove the plug that has a nipple on it. There's a copper sealing washer under the plug head (my carbed/not DI motor had a copper washer there), don't lose it into the bilge.

I shined a light straight down the side of the engine, and didn't see any oil so I filled the cavity slowly through a piece of tubing and syringe until I could confirm there was oil, maybe about 1/4 inch below the threads of the hole. Next time I checked it, I also didn't see oil so I did the same thing.

I haven't checked the oil in mine since, hopefully there's still some in there.

www dot seadoosource dot com has some photos, also in the shop service manual.

I wouldn't worry too much about overfilling it but don't try to overfill, there's a space inside where air is trapped to provide room for expansion. If you try real hard you can probably overfill though, just take the plug out and fill till you see oil, this strategy is much better than running out of oil, IMO.

Take your time and be patient, you'll need a long extension, deep socket (10mm?) and ratchet, I believe. Yeah, it's kinda fun. Don't lose the copper sealing washer if there's one there, it's easy to miss.

 

[nhmort]

As you know, according to the manual it should be checked every year.

You think they would have made this easier to check and fill if necessary.

I've seen guys use squeeze bulb with a clear hose extension to aid in the filling process.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[nhmort]

Ok. No disrespect, but I can't find a way of checking this oil let alone adding more. I think the DI case is different than the carbed version.

In the maintenance manual before you put the top half of the case together it says to add the oil at that time.

There isn't any vertical plug, it horizontal and it's connected to the cooling system that goes out the transom.

jhjesse tkarvelis 68ragtop or any other guys familiar with the 951 DI have any input on this?

Thanks

 

[nhmort]

I found the plug, it has a line with a check valve on it that's attached to the solenoid for the raves.

You can see it if you contort a mirror at the right angle. Mind you, I took off the fuel rail, all of the sensors attached to the fuel rail on the engine wiring harness and the water intake hose to the engine.

I still don't see how a yearly item would be this difficult to check and fill if need be.

Are there any tricks to doing this?

I'm pulling my hair out.

 

[tkarvelis]

The far end of the hose connected to the nipple goes to the rave valve solenoid. In theory, you should be able to disconnect the rave valve solenoid, and insert the oil in that hose.

However, unless there is a place for the air to vent back out, you can not get the oil out of the tube into the case.

There is no way I can get to the plug on my GTX DI. I would need to remove the exhaust pipes, and then I would need a syringe to get it in...

 

[nhmort]

Poor design I guess.
This is why guys are concerned about their bottom end I suppose.

Can't really check the oil then. Does Seadoo have some trick on how the check it.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Yeah, I'm not sure if you can reach it but it's in the same location as the carbed motor. Maybe [MENTION=57696]68ragtop[/MENTION] can confirm.

Looks similar except for the nipple fitting and attached tube, which adds some complexity. 1st photo is DI, 2nd photo is carbed version, as far as I know exhaust is routed the same?

Good luck!

 

[mikidymac]

I am going to check into it but the cavity for the balancer is not the same cavity as the RAVE fitting.
The RAVE fitting uses crankcase pressure to activate it just like the pulse line on a carbed engine. Because the balancer is a sealed cavity it wouldn't do anything for the RAVES as there is no pressure built in it.

Well, dang these DI's are strange.
Page 103 of the 2004 manual shows the line from the solenoid to a check valve then to the balancer shaft cavity.
These must just vent to that instead of atmosphere like the carbed ones do.

I think I would just inject the required amount of oil into that hose with a syringe and be done with it.

 

[tkarvelis]

I tried. When I had my engine iplled, and hung to paint, I did not have a hose on the nipple, and oil leaked out. I had a pia getting oil in via a hose.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I tried. When I had my engine iplled, and hung to paint, I did not have a hose on the nipple, and oil leaked out. I had a pia getting oil in via a hose.

Yeah, I bet it wasn't easy without somewhere for the air to release, I bet you had to use a pumping action to inject small amounts at a time. Could even be dangerous if a seal popped out on one end of the counterbalance cavity or out the side, have to make sure not to use much pressure, maybe 3psi.

There's a lot more room in a boat bilge I'll tell ya and even then it's tight, I have to use my long extension and it's still a bit of a PITA but it's possible IN A BOAT to do a CARBED engine. Not quite the same thing of course.

With the DI ski you've got all that additional plumbing on the head and side of engine plus less room to work and probably can't get a straight line of sight. Yep, it's gonna be fun if it's even possible, but some guys might find a way and we can all benefit from that.

I hope NHMORT can do it but I wouldn't want him to damage something while trying.

mikydy, the DI uses compressed air to actuate the RAVES, there's an 80psi compressor on the end of the balance shaft. Probably great for an air tank and dual train horns, wouldn't you think?

The carbed 951 doesn't have a vent at all once the plug is back in so if you overfill there's a good chance once the oil heats up it might blow out a seal, so I didn't fill mine to the tippy top, just till I could verify there was oil, maybe 1/4" below fill plug hole.

I really should check it again, probably.

 

[nhmort]

So if I can't see how much oil is in there, how do I know if I need more?

Like Sportster said, I don't want to put to much oil into it and potentially blow my seals out and loose the bottom end.

BRP is on drugs. How does one remedy this for something that needs to be done every year?

I personally believe that this was never done at the dealer during yearly tune ups. It's impossible to "check" the oil and even fill it.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

The way the DI looks, it seems like that gear reservoir might be filling with 2-stroke oil coming from the compressor pump, that's why they placed the vent hose there to provide somewhere for it to escape?

[MENTION=57696]68ragtop[/MENTION] looked this area over carefully during his rebuild so he knows.

 

[68ragtop]

The way the DI looks, it seems like that gear reservoir might be filling with 2-stroke oil coming from the compressor pump, that's why they placed the vent hose there to provide somewhere for it to escape?

[MENTION=57696]68ragtop[/MENTION] looked this area over carefully during his rebuild so he knows.

The plumbing seems a little odd but its just to keep the system sealed from water intrusion. The backside of the rave solenoid is at atmosphere pressure that releases the valve pressure into the air box. the CB case vent is just tee'd into that line & the check valve prevents the case from being pressurized. all the plumbing seems overkill, but its to keep the system free of contamination.

Sportster, wasn't it you & I that were testing how far the engine had to be tipped for the CB oil to flow out the threaded access hole? Could have sworn we were talking about that a while back. Seems to me when 40ml of oil is in the case, & the engine was at the installed angle it would just leak out the hole. I can see if I can find that info to be sure. I can't imagine injection oil getting in there at all unless the seals where gone, but that seems unlikely.

if you have access to a vacuum pump/gauge you can hook it too that nipple & draw it into 5lbs of vacuum (or pressure) if its holds for 20+ mins your probably just fine as far as the seals go.

EDIT: I'll read through all the posts later when I get home. But if its relevant, the oil return line on the bottom of the air pump should go up to the filler neck on the oil tank. (maybe this has been covered already?)

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

if you have access to a vacuum pump/gauge you can hook it too that nipple & draw it into 5lbs of vacuum (or pressure) if its holds for 20+ mins your probably just fine as far as the seals go.

Yes, I was brow-beating you into helping understand how much is too much and how to know, lol.

See, the DI gear case is vented, probably for a reason. I'm assuming due to the air compressor could cause it to pressurize and if that's the case also some 2-stroke oil would/could be forced into the cavity. Just a wild guess of course.

Unlike the DI, carbed engine gear cases aren't vented, thus having too much oil (lack of room for expansion) might cause a seal failure. I can't prove this of course, it's something that happens to unvented gear cases though, when there's too much oil over full.

Anyway, doesn't look like OP has enough space to get in that tight spot.

 

[tkarvelis]

I know I had 40ml in mine and I had it hung using the manifold. If dripped oil, around 5ml until a put a piece of tubing on the fitting. It rose in the tubing about 2 inches.
I was able to get the oil back in the cavity.

 

[68ragtop]

Don't ask how, but I found it.....

Post 2021. This has to be one of the record holders for longest thread???

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?66994-2001-Seadoo-Sportster-LE-Just-got-it!/page81

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

LOL, you sure did find it and I'm not asking how!

 

[68ragtop]

Actually I use the "site:seadooforum.com" with my search words in google. I remembered some of the things we spoke about so I put them in the search. It was the second result & it came back to me.

Such a better way to search most websites. doesn't work on all of them but most.

 

[nhmort]

So 68ragtop, what do you do to check/refill your counterbalance oil?

Also, the manual says to add the oil before case assembly and the carbed version after. Why do you think this is so?

The oil ports are also in a different place than the carbed version too?

Could it be that the redesign doesn't require that checking if the fluid other than to be concerned about a seal leaking.

 

[68ragtop]

Well, I haven't checked any of mine to be honest....

I typically buy skis that are pre-blown up & rebuild them. Run them for a season & buy something else. But, I do leak check the cavity after assembly. So in theory, if the cavities are air tight the oil should stay in there. There is plenty of oil in the cavity to lube the gears & bearings so even if you lost 25% of the oil it would be fine. I have pulled two 100+ hour, blown up but virgin DI's apart & both had a decent amount of CB oil in them. I am not saying you shouldn't check it, its just not normally a consumed oil to worry about unless the seals are leaking.

Do you have access to a vacuum tool like the http://mityvac.com, or a pressure gage? I would consider first seeing how long the cavity holds 5 Lbs of vacuum or pressure. Filling it through the vent fitting would be difficult as its only a pinhole opening.

What ski do you have? Is the vent port completely un reachable for removal?

 

[nhmort]

It's a 2000GTX DI.

Yes it's impossible to get to it.

I just wanted to get your opinion on this.

Thanks

 

[68ragtop]

Well, not impossible......

You would have to remove the 2nd half of the exhaust pipe. I think there is room to do that in a GTX. There's one bolt hidden on the backside of the head, the clamp by the air pump & the band clamp. You'd have to clean up the pipe halves & the copper seal between the pipe halves & re-seal it. Also the cylinder drain/cooling line comes out over the top of the CB nipple. You would also be doing it a bit blind, or with mirrors. Would take some fooling around but it could be done.

 

[mikidymac]

That picture definitely explains why you can't just add oil from the RAVE solenoid vent hose. With the hole is the brass fitting it would take a long time to loose the oil even with the ski upside down.

 

[tkarvelis]

I thought that too [MENTION=53237]mikidymac[/MENTION]. I had the nipple in, and tight, and it did drip, when hung. I know with the exhaust pulled, it would not be hard to do on the 03 and 02 gtx, but they were designed for a 4 stroke, so I have lots of room LOL.

Both engines I got had very little oil in them. The first had the gears torn up, and was rebuilt before, so it was possible that they did not refill the cavity.

The other engine was an 02 DI that lost its bearings and crank.