Carb bolt fell into carb...

[Stevireno]

I was rebuilding the fuel pump for the starboard engine, then decided to clean the internals of the carb. I must have gotten the bolts mixed up, as one of the 4 bolts to secure the carb to the block seemed a little shorter than the others,, like an idiot, I cranked it on, likely stripped it and reassembled the carb.

Well, later that day, testing it out, the throttle gets Jammed on the starboard engine (bolt must have came out and lodged into the throttle butterflies). I assumed the cable was caught and messed with it until it functioned properly. (Assuming bolt fell into cylinder). Started starboard motor, ran fine, tooling along at 50mph or so and there is a power drop. Starboard engine is at zero rpm.

Starter won't turn engine, motor is frozen. I see missing bolt as I am disassembling carb to fix.

My assumption is that the bolt fell into the carb and made its way to the lower gears and froze the motor, but I removed the head and I don't see how the bolt could have made it into the lower portion of the motor. The plugs where white, like ghost white, so now, I am assuming that the bolt came out, was shot down the exhaust, then the motor ran lean until a piston froze.

I was prepared to pull the motor, but I am hoping I don't have to. I was going to remove the exhaust, search for the bolt, then pull the cylinders. Now that the head is off, is there a way to tell of the motor is frozen as a result of the pistons?

Thanks so much...

Steve

 

[68ragtop]

I am not sure what bolts you are speaking of, but it sounds like the carb might have been loose & was drawing air & possibly went lean. What position is the piston in & can you see the sidewalls of the cylinders at all? Are they shiny and smooth or rough & scored? a few pictures would be great, but if the dome of the piston is white it does't sound too good.

The lower case where the air/fuel enter doesn't have any exposed gears, if a bolt did go into your engine it would more likely damage the case, make its way into the combustion chamber/port areas, or both. While that would bring your engine down it probably wouldn't seize the engine like you described. When an engine seizes from heat/lean. It will normal sound fairly normal and as the piston expands & starts to rub the cylinder walls it creates friction that adds to the heat & the engine will seize fairly abruptly, or parts of the rings or ring lands will snap off & make some nasty noises for a few seconds before coming to a stop. Can you post a few picts of the cylinder, and combustion chamber & the bolts you are talking about?

 

[Stevireno]

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like its not possible the bolt is in the lower unit, which will save me from removing the motor (hopefully).

here is the bolt that is missing


This cyl looks ok to me... Other cyl is at TDC



Here is the inside of the head.



and the plug...



Thanks for your help...

 

[68ragtop]

The spark plug picture won't open for me, but from what I can see things look pretty normal & healthy. I'll assume the picture of the cylinder is the side you lost the bolt? Any chance its a coincidence & the impeller/pump is seized? if you grab the flywheel with both hands with it budge at all? You might need to remove the pump & impeller shaft to rule that out. How does the other piston dome look? seems to have more wash (not a bad thing) but it looks like there is something towards the bottom of the picture. maybe its just an artifact from your camera?

 

[Stevireno]

You know what, I think the bolt was on the front carb... That's the piston at TDC. I have the pump removed and the shaft out in anticipation of pulling the motor. The starter still wont move the motor with the shaft removed. Do you think it's wort it to pull the front cylinder off and inspect?

 

[Stevireno]

On a side note! I'm looking at getting a 1969 cougar convertible to restore soon!

 

[68ragtop]

Now I see what bolt your talking about. That one would not make you go lean, but would be devastating to go through your engine. Was the flame arrestor/filter in place when it disappeared?

Good chance your damage is in the Rotary valve just under the cover beneath the carbs. Maybe pull that off first. Be mindful when removing the cover. If there is no damage there, the valve might want to stick to the cover (from the oil) & you will have to re-index it later. Just pull it back about 1/4" or so, then separate the valve/plate & make sure it stays on the engine side.

 

[68ragtop]

I would remove the RV cover first to inspect. your probably going to find some carnage under there. Once the valve is off, you might also be able to see into the lower case on that side. It may show something....

Many of them you can remove the RV cover with the carbs still attached if you have room to get to everything.

 

[Stevireno]

You mean the rave valves? I'll pull the front one off. If I cant see anything wrong, I'll keep tearing it down until I see whats wrong..

 

[68ragtop]

No, there is a round disk (rotary) valve under the carbs. look where the carbs are mounted & you will see its a circular shape area held in by (4) 13mm headed bolts. The rave on the cylinder that is at TDC might give you a glimpse of the side of that piston & rings though.

 

[68ragtop]

Here's a picture I borrowed from the site. you can see the round valve body area.

 

[Stevireno]

Got it, will be working on it this afternoon, thanks

 

[Stevireno]

Well, here's what I see so far...

Should I start looking for a new motor?

 

[Stevireno]

Pulling it tomorrow, I'll post pictures of any surprises

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Woops, sorry to see that man.... White plugs indicate lean, could be an air leak, a dirty carb (they can be tricky to clean) or a fuel line leak, was it lean stalling or hesitating at all?

Hopefully there's a puddle of oil in the bottom of crankcase, should be large enough to wet the crank wheels a little.

 

[Stevireno]

Likely an air leak from the carb... I'm more worried about the giant chunk taken out of the case!

 

[68ragtop]

I don't think he actually had white plugs.

He lost a flame arrestor bolt into the carb.

the plug picture won't open for me, but the electrode looks black in the thumbnail & the piston domes look like they were running rich if anything.

 

[Stevireno]

I have the motor detached, just a few hoses to remove and I can pull it, I'm amazed how small the motor actually is, I'm hoping I can find a replacement after I assess the damage!

 

[68ragtop]

There's not much room in those cases. My guess is the bolt made it past the RV & once it went into the case something had to give to make room.

What a bummer. Who knows, maybe the cylinders & pistons will be untouched & you could find a used case & re-ring it? Guess it depends on what you want to spend. Hopefully the crank is ok.

It you had a leak where the bolt came out, that shouldn't make anything run lean.

 

[68ragtop]

I have the motor detached, just a few hoses to remove and I can pull it, I'm amazed how small the motor actually is, I'm hoping I can find a replacement after I assess the damage!

[MENTION=57920]racerxxx[/MENTION] might have some leads for you, he is an 800 fanatic, or @Minnetonka sells used parts.

 

[racerxxx]

Plug looks fine to me. The ground electrode and lower rim of the plug are black, oil is present, domes look fine, not lean, the insulator looks like hot chocolate to me. I've never seen oil laying in the bottom of a seadoo engine deep enough to hit the crank, it's enough to soak up with a single ply paper towel in a 1.5" square paper towel, the center where the crank rod swings is lower than the counter weights.

Case is cracked with a chunk missing on the lower intake port. Perhaps not a big deal but here is the $64K question??????How mechanically inclined are you? Cases could maybe be used if they're not that bad. Wouldn't know until it was gutted. I'm not really liking where the entry dink is. You want to make sure those are smooth, it's a seal in a sense. But that could carefully be leveled down and even if it was a little low wouldn't be a deal breaker.


Here is my scenario:

Put head back on, pull the PTO off. This will be tricky, you need to jamb the piston so the crank doesn't rotate. Unfortunately, it already is, so if it breaks free you could actually do more damage. UGH! Maybe pull the engine, pull the mag cover, remove the flywheel (requires a special puller) there is NO NEED to rotate the crank to do that. Then remove the mag housing. Then separate the lower crank case half. Remove bolt and carnage. Shop vac the extra chips out of it. Put the lower half back on. See if the engine rotates. If so, great...... Rotate the crank CCW so the PTO piston is JUST past the intake port inside the cylinder, lower about 6' of clothes line down the PTO spark plug hole.. Now with a impeller removal tool(you'd need to buy one of those too) in the back of the PTO continue to turn CCW and remove the PTO from the crank. Now, I would tear the engine completely apart, inspect the crank, check the bearings and if it is good I would buy new cases and then freshen up the top end with a hone job and new rings and put it back together, you'll need a gasket set too. If the brass gear is stripped on the rotary valve you'd need to replace that, that shaft could have bent too. Cash will start to add up. Or, just pull it, and get a new reman engine and don't even touch another screw on the current engine. I love the 787 engine so I'd be into that so fast.

 

[Stevireno]

Plug looks fine to me. The ground electrode and lower rim of the plug are black, oil is present, domes look fine, not lean, the insulator looks like hot chocolate to me. I've never seen oil laying in the bottom of a seadoo engine deep enough to hit the crank, it's enough to soak up with a single ply paper towel in a 1.5" square paper towel, the center where the crank rod swings is lower than the counter weights.

Case is cracked with a chunk missing on the lower intake port. Perhaps not a big deal but here is the $64K question??????How mechanically inclined are you? Cases could maybe be used if they're not that bad. Wouldn't know until it was gutted. I'm not really liking where the entry dink is. You want to make sure those are smooth, it's a seal in a sense. But that could carefully be leveled down and even if it was a little low wouldn't be a deal breaker.


Here is my scenario:

Put head back on, pull the PTO off. This will be tricky, you need to jamb the piston so the crank doesn't rotate. Unfortunately, it already is, so if it breaks free you could actually do more damage. UGH! Maybe pull the engine, pull the mag cover, remove the flywheel (requires a special puller) there is NO NEED to rotate the crank to do that. Then remove the mag housing. Then separate the lower crank case half. Remove bolt and carnage. Shop vac the extra chips out of it. Put the lower half back on. See if the engine rotates. If so, great...... Rotate the crank CCW so the PTO piston is JUST past the intake port inside the cylinder, lower about 6' of clothes line down the PTO spark plug hole.. Now with a impeller removal tool(you'd need to buy one of those too) in the back of the PTO continue to turn CCW and remove the PTO from the crank. Now, I would tear the engine completely apart, inspect the crank, check the bearings and if it is good I would buy new cases and then freshen up the top end with a hone job and new rings and put it back together, you'll need a gasket set too. If the brass gear is stripped on the rotary valve you'd need to replace that, that shaft could have bent too. Cash will start to add up. Or, just pull it, and get a new reman engine and don't even touch another screw on the current engine. I love the 787 engine so I'd be into that so fast.

Thank you for all that info! I follow most of it!


I have the motor on my workbench, I'd like to crack the case without removing the flywheel, but that doesn't look possible, I used an impact hammer and got the nut off the flywheel, but I'm afraid to go further... The flywheel does turn, it goes about 1/4 a round in both directions, then stops. There is no scraping, it just stops. I started removing the small bolts that hold the flywheel on and one is starting to strip... If I end up drilling out one bolt (one of the 6 or 8 gold looking bolts, allen wrench center type)m, will that throw the motor out of balance once its going?


Thanks again

 

[68ragtop]

Don't drill out the bolts, that won't help anything. There are threads on the outside of where you took the nut off & there is a special puller that threads onto that & removes the flywheel. They come off easy with that tool.

Like Racer said the PTO side could stay on for now to remove the bottom half of the case to see whats going on.
But the flywheel has to come off to get to the hidden bolts behind it that secure the flywheel/Mag housing.

I Don't know of any other way to get that flywheel off.

 

[Stevireno]

Whoops! I guess I'll leave those bolts alone! I'll see if the local auto shop has a flywheel puller that will work with this. Thanks again, hopefully internal pictures today!

 

[68ragtop]

This is what they look like. I would borrow you mine but by the time we ship it two directions you might as well buy one for another $20

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flywheel-Pu...m3f170839f9:m:mjerinpCwKIx7k87go1EhaA&vxp=mtr