jhjesse
Well-Known Member
Guys it's going to have to be one of you as I am in Midland MI until the end of the month.
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Another GTX Di
- Thread starter G&J
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Guys it's going to have to be one of you as I am in Midland MI until the end of the month.
G&J
New Member
Hi Guy's - been tied up with work (it's interrupting my SeaDoo repair quest, lol), latest update...
1. Replaced both ignition coils, HT leads and "box" - seems to idle a little more smoothly after a very quick test. Need to test some more.
2. Having trouble sourcing parts I needs to make adapter for gauge to test air compressor pressure, hopefully tomorrow.
3. Need to work out where the pressure is leaking from causing the fuel pressure to drop after shut down.
As a matter of interest SBT Australia don't locally sell CanDoo... Buy from US only.
1. Replaced both ignition coils, HT leads and "box" - seems to idle a little more smoothly after a very quick test. Need to test some more.
2. Having trouble sourcing parts I needs to make adapter for gauge to test air compressor pressure, hopefully tomorrow.
3. Need to work out where the pressure is leaking from causing the fuel pressure to drop after shut down.
As a matter of interest SBT Australia don't locally sell CanDoo... Buy from US only.
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68ragtop
Well-Known Member
The pressure issue should be fairly easy. Once you fit a gage on the end of the air line, just put it in flood
mode & spin it over. should hit close to 90 then stop cranking. If the pressure drops as fast as you saw before,
Then the leak has to be either the lines leading to, or the rave solenoid itself, the air line from the pump to the rail, or the check valve in the air pump. If it holds pressure, then I would suspect you have leaking air injector/s The air system doesn't have much storage capacity, so a small leak will seem to drain fast. Normally when you shut off a DI the pressure drops a bit, then it will make two more drops that coincide with the rave solenoid pulsing twice as it uses that stored pressure to cycle the valves. Yours seems to just dump. soap bubbles might help isolate things?
Really shouldn't need much special to test. a pressure gauge that goes to at least 100, a chunk of hose, clamps & maybe a fitting to adapt to the gages threads. If you still have the compression tester, borrow the gage from that maybe? Otherwise do you have a local hardware store? Not sure how stocked they are in your area. Pretty common parts normally.
mode & spin it over. should hit close to 90 then stop cranking. If the pressure drops as fast as you saw before,
Then the leak has to be either the lines leading to, or the rave solenoid itself, the air line from the pump to the rail, or the check valve in the air pump. If it holds pressure, then I would suspect you have leaking air injector/s The air system doesn't have much storage capacity, so a small leak will seem to drain fast. Normally when you shut off a DI the pressure drops a bit, then it will make two more drops that coincide with the rave solenoid pulsing twice as it uses that stored pressure to cycle the valves. Yours seems to just dump. soap bubbles might help isolate things?
Really shouldn't need much special to test. a pressure gauge that goes to at least 100, a chunk of hose, clamps & maybe a fitting to adapt to the gages threads. If you still have the compression tester, borrow the gage from that maybe? Otherwise do you have a local hardware store? Not sure how stocked they are in your area. Pretty common parts normally.
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G&J
New Member
I was disappointed with the Auto parts store I expected them to have the fitting it's all I need.
Regarding measuring the compressor air pressure where should I be tapping in? I was going to connect, via the hose and a fitting, to the top of the compressor itself which would of course isolate and test the compressor but not the rest of the circuit.
Regarding measuring the compressor air pressure where should I be tapping in? I was going to connect, via the hose and a fitting, to the top of the compressor itself which would of course isolate and test the compressor but not the rest of the circuit.
68ragtop
Well-Known Member
Just remove the hose from the end that connects to the air rail. Then carfully remove the o-ring to prevent it from getting damaged. work a section of hose over that fitting & clamp it. Just looking to dead head the gage on that hose, not tap it in like the fuel gage is.
G&J
New Member
Mmmm my configuration does not look like the image in the manual.
Mine is black high pressure hose with single clamp either end. No sign of air leakage (pressure test to come...) but interesting that this is non-standard, I wonder what else is non-standard that could be contributing to the problem?
Mine is black high pressure hose with single clamp either end. No sign of air leakage (pressure test to come...) but interesting that this is non-standard, I wonder what else is non-standard that could be contributing to the problem?
68ragtop
Well-Known Member
In the picture they are showing how to remove the air line from the pump, you would want to take off the other end where it goes into the fuel rail & install the gage on the end of that hose. It does come off the same way though. The small hard plastic line you see in the picture is the one that goes up from the pump to the rave solenoid. I thought you already removed the main line to look for contamination a few posts back?
Sportster-2001-951C-Stock
Well-Known Member
Good to see more progress. Now I'm wondering if this engine has rebuilt previously, there are at least two designs of cylinder port configurations and the MPEM tune revision is specific for the jug ports. I hear they don't run well if the incorrect jug is used during a rebuild due to the MPEM mismatch.
Maybe you guys already discussed this....
Maybe you guys already discussed this....
68ragtop
Well-Known Member
Yep, it would seem like maybe the previous owner has been chasing the same problem? The hose has been changed & looks like a makeshift washer setup to keep the hose retained in the air rail. you could use a standard hose, but it should be able to handle 100psi. 100 psi fuel line is normally very thick walled stuff. The oem hose was thin, but externally reinforced. But, unless the hose you have now is leaking, it should be fine for diagnostics.
That being said, something is not right. You should be able to see the needle bounce its way up near 80-90 PSI & when you stop cranking it should hold some of that pressure. But, it only takes a small leak to cause a problem because there is no place for the pressurized air to be stored other than the air lines & pump head. First thing I would do is remove that gray line on the side of the pump head in your picture. cap that nipple off & test it again. If you still can't get pressure put soap bubbles around the fittings of the hose going to the gage, both ends & at the gage too. Hold it in flood mode & crank again. The problem could be in the air pump head but lets make sure its not something simple before you take that apart.
I am assuming the gray lines are on the correct side of the solenoid? One side is air tight when the valve is not activated (air pump side) the other side vents to the hose on the back of the solenoid. (rave valve side)
Your zeroing in on something.......
That being said, something is not right. You should be able to see the needle bounce its way up near 80-90 PSI & when you stop cranking it should hold some of that pressure. But, it only takes a small leak to cause a problem because there is no place for the pressurized air to be stored other than the air lines & pump head. First thing I would do is remove that gray line on the side of the pump head in your picture. cap that nipple off & test it again. If you still can't get pressure put soap bubbles around the fittings of the hose going to the gage, both ends & at the gage too. Hold it in flood mode & crank again. The problem could be in the air pump head but lets make sure its not something simple before you take that apart.
I am assuming the gray lines are on the correct side of the solenoid? One side is air tight when the valve is not activated (air pump side) the other side vents to the hose on the back of the solenoid. (rave valve side)
Your zeroing in on something.......
68ragtop
Well-Known Member
Did your fuel pressure climb to 107 while cranking in flood mode? (everything hooked up)
I'm guessing it might not have. That little air pump is pretty impressive. It can build 90 PSI cranking at 500 RPM's so when its running at 1500 it can probably overcome a leak. The big question is, does this leak have anything to do with your running issues. Hard to say, but its definitely not normal to not build pressure at cranking.
When the skis are started up, the air pressure only has to get high enough to over come the rising compression in the cylinders, so they will start at pressures below 107. But again, thats only if the low pressure is because of the air side lagging.
EDIT: I keep calling it a leak, could be an air pump problem too. Hoping its a leak tho.....
I'm guessing it might not have. That little air pump is pretty impressive. It can build 90 PSI cranking at 500 RPM's so when its running at 1500 it can probably overcome a leak. The big question is, does this leak have anything to do with your running issues. Hard to say, but its definitely not normal to not build pressure at cranking.
When the skis are started up, the air pressure only has to get high enough to over come the rising compression in the cylinders, so they will start at pressures below 107. But again, thats only if the low pressure is because of the air side lagging.
EDIT: I keep calling it a leak, could be an air pump problem too. Hoping its a leak tho.....
G&J
New Member
Just got home from work, took the little tablet out to compare diagram of hose connection to RAVE solenoid.......
And &$@#$&%$$ they were incorrectly fitted!!! Put em right and idle has smoothed down! Even heard solenoid cycle twice on shut down, still have maint and flashing red light so have other problems to sort out...?
But there is light at the end of the tunnel.... I wonder what else has been incorrectly configured?
And &$@#$&%$$ they were incorrectly fitted!!! Put em right and idle has smoothed down! Even heard solenoid cycle twice on shut down, still have maint and flashing red light so have other problems to sort out...?
But there is light at the end of the tunnel.... I wonder what else has been incorrectly configured?
G&J
New Member
"new" idle and fuel pressure movie
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HAiqXtGjDU4[/video]
edit: idle steady 1450, hours on unit never mentioned are 123.5
edit 2: BTW... regarding other issue, low reg/rec output V, unit never displays low 12v message, just maint and red light. Can I reset or read codes? or can only read codes with BUDS or CanDoo?
edit 3: maint and red light do not come on at idle.
probably need to put the beast completely back together and take it for a test run this weekend as next step.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HAiqXtGjDU4[/video]
edit: idle steady 1450, hours on unit never mentioned are 123.5
edit 2: BTW... regarding other issue, low reg/rec output V, unit never displays low 12v message, just maint and red light. Can I reset or read codes? or can only read codes with BUDS or CanDoo?
edit 3: maint and red light do not come on at idle.
probably need to put the beast completely back together and take it for a test run this weekend as next step.
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tkarvelis
Active Member
That is great news!!!! Glad you did not give up. I would look for a replacement hose for the pump. [MENTION=41828]Minnetonka4me[/MENTION] should have one.
What is your charging voltage at idle now? I would charge the battery overnight first, then measure it for a true reading.
What is your charging voltage at idle now? I would charge the battery overnight first, then measure it for a true reading.
68ragtop
Well-Known Member
Now that last video is what I was expecting to see! Glad to hear its getting somewhere!
it's clear your idle pressure is now higher & faster than what it was before. :hurray:
Take another look at your pressure gage at idle. Rev it up like you did in early videos & make sure the pressure still rises with higher RPM's. might not be quite as much as it did in the other video, but it should still go up. With the higher air pressure, the fuel pump has more demand put on it. just want to make sure it still appears to be up to the job.
I would circle back & put your volt meter back on & see what you have. If it's not staying between 12.6-14.9 that will put the light on. Your voltage & measurements have never seemed right yet. IIRC, I don't think the batt warning comes on until the voltage gets below 12 & that might be only when its first started up? The Maint is the first warning when its running.
it's clear your idle pressure is now higher & faster than what it was before. :hurray:
Take another look at your pressure gage at idle. Rev it up like you did in early videos & make sure the pressure still rises with higher RPM's. might not be quite as much as it did in the other video, but it should still go up. With the higher air pressure, the fuel pump has more demand put on it. just want to make sure it still appears to be up to the job.
I would circle back & put your volt meter back on & see what you have. If it's not staying between 12.6-14.9 that will put the light on. Your voltage & measurements have never seemed right yet. IIRC, I don't think the batt warning comes on until the voltage gets below 12 & that might be only when its first started up? The Maint is the first warning when its running.
G&J
New Member
Thanks very much everyone for your help, so far :thumbsup:
Regarding dropping air pressure after shut down is that too quick or OK?
If you hadn't suggested checking the hoses 68ragtop I'd still be going in circles, as you mention stator output next :agree: probably will be low as it was before. Is it possible to service or replace stator without removing engine?
Regarding dropping air pressure after shut down is that too quick or OK?
If you hadn't suggested checking the hoses 68ragtop I'd still be going in circles, as you mention stator output next :agree: probably will be low as it was before. Is it possible to service or replace stator without removing engine?
68ragtop
Well-Known Member
I think your air pressure is ok. Drops a little quick, but not abnormal. There is a metal reed valve in the air pump that prevents the air from going back into the air pump cylinder. they seal pretty well, but not entirely, so even if you have no leaks anywhere else the pressure will drop. It doesn't take much of a leak for that to drop.
You can get to the stator if it comes to that. You'll have to remove the 1st section of the exhaust pipe to give yourself some room & you'll have to support the engine in the front from underneath (being careful to not harm the plastic cooling plate) There is a specific puller for removing the flywheel, but other than that you shouldn't need anything else except a new exhaust gasket at the manifold to pipe connection.
I wonder if a standard 110v light bulb could be wired to each stator winding & voltage read at the same time? That would put a load on it & I don't think it would be too much, but enough to make a bad circuit fail? That would be for sure out of the box, backyard thinking & sure isn't in the service manual. Just hate to see you pull all that apart & find out its a wire connection or another bad R/R
You can get to the stator if it comes to that. You'll have to remove the 1st section of the exhaust pipe to give yourself some room & you'll have to support the engine in the front from underneath (being careful to not harm the plastic cooling plate) There is a specific puller for removing the flywheel, but other than that you shouldn't need anything else except a new exhaust gasket at the manifold to pipe connection.
I wonder if a standard 110v light bulb could be wired to each stator winding & voltage read at the same time? That would put a load on it & I don't think it would be too much, but enough to make a bad circuit fail? That would be for sure out of the box, backyard thinking & sure isn't in the service manual. Just hate to see you pull all that apart & find out its a wire connection or another bad R/R
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68ragtop
Well-Known Member
The electronics won't know the difference if it's on water or not so that probably not going to change. Did you have the exact same voltages with your old regulator?
But, Is your fuel gage pressure dropping now when you rev it up? (it looked like that in your video), It shouldn't drop at all & should actually go up a bit. It went up dramatically in your earlier videos because we were watching the air pump getting more RPMS to overcome the rate of your leak. Now your air pressure is higher so there is more demand on the fuel pump to keep the 27lbs over the air pressure. when you rev it, the air pump pressure will still rise slightly over 80psi forcing the fuel pump to raise pressure that same amount. If the pressure drops, that's usually a sign the the fuel pump can't keep up the higher pressure needed & fuel being consumed. That problem would become more evident on the water, if I was seeing your needle correctly.
When you found your leak, did you retest your air pressure to see if you had 80-90 psi at cranking?
I don't mean to beat this fuel & air pressure thing to death, but its really important to be spot on & is the biggest nemesis to the DI's
But, Is your fuel gage pressure dropping now when you rev it up? (it looked like that in your video), It shouldn't drop at all & should actually go up a bit. It went up dramatically in your earlier videos because we were watching the air pump getting more RPMS to overcome the rate of your leak. Now your air pressure is higher so there is more demand on the fuel pump to keep the 27lbs over the air pressure. when you rev it, the air pump pressure will still rise slightly over 80psi forcing the fuel pump to raise pressure that same amount. If the pressure drops, that's usually a sign the the fuel pump can't keep up the higher pressure needed & fuel being consumed. That problem would become more evident on the water, if I was seeing your needle correctly.
When you found your leak, did you retest your air pressure to see if you had 80-90 psi at cranking?
I don't mean to beat this fuel & air pressure thing to death, but its really important to be spot on & is the biggest nemesis to the DI's
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