98 GTX LTD cranking issue (solved)

[Grim]

I always read the threads here on the forum and was reading about a similar problem I was having, which got me thinking.

Here is a synapses of what I am dealing with:
Engine doesn't like to crank, especially when cold. When I press the start button the starter will do two "rotations" and pause and repeat that over and over. Once it starts and runs for about 10 secs it will still do the rotation thing but it will crank pretty reliably. I just don't like that the starter doesn't rotate continually. And I haven't tried it in the water, that may cause more problems. Another thing to mention is with the sparks plugs out the starter rotates continually, no pauses.

I looked at my system and the I replaced the coil and I bought new wires going from battery to starter, positive and negative. I did buy an aftermarket coil though. Has anyone ran into issues with using aftermarket for this device. I know there are a lot of things that you can't rely on for aftermarket parts.......is this one of those?

Any other ideas what could cause the pause? Battery is brand new and charged.

 

[mikidymac]

Sounds like not enough amps to crank the engine all the way over fast. You already replaced the cables so you have the Battery, starter solenoid and starter to look at. Typically it is a bad battery and even new ones can be bad. Do not jump start the ski.

 

[etemplet]

I've had a few skis that cranked a few turns and the starter just kicks out. If you have a hot battery you probably have a starter issue but check your ground and the positive cable. Sometimes I go from the postive on the battery to the positive on the starter which bypasses the solenoid and positive cable and connections.

Lemme tell ya this one... I rebuilt my first 787 engine and the compression was a little high about 170psi which was strange but I put some assembly lube in there and I had a little injection oil in the bottom of the crankcase which could have bumped up the readings. Anyway... this is how it begins right? Doubt. So with a Brand new $100 AGM battery 12.5 volts and a good charge I had to get the engine past top dead center for the battery to turn over the ski. I checked the jet pump thrust, pulled the spark plugs, I could turn the ski by hand. I charged the battery, I connected a 1000 cold cranking amp battery via jumping cables. The ski would not get past top dead center. I fought this off an on for a day and a half. Just for testing I installed an old half charged battery in the ski. Dang thing spun over like a top. So I had a brand spankin new battery that was so bad voltage would not come across the plates, even with and extra 1000 CCA..... no joy. So.... sometimes it is really strange stuff. Good Luck.

 

[Grim]

I need input from the peanut gallery . I am still having the issue with the ski doing short burst cranking (read above). I finally got it all back together after another problem and I jumped the starter relay and it turned over normally, no pausing. My thinking is that the rely is the issue. Can anyone pokes holes in that theory?
Update: I changed out the starter relay but something strange happened. I tried to crank it and the starter got stuck in the on position. There was no spark to the plugs, didn't crank up, and the only way I could shut it off was disconnecting the battery. Could this be the relay or maybe the start button?

 

[etemplet]

If you installed the small red wire on the wrong side of the rely that will happen. Check it out. Good Luck.

 

[Grim]

If you installed the small red wire on the wrong side of the rely that will happen. Check it out. Good Luck.

Thanks, Ill check that out. I took a picture before I dissembled the unit. It shows the red wire on the left side, which is the side coming from the battery. The right side goes to starter.
I looked in the book and it says that there should be 5 ohms between post. Any other checks I can do after I verify the wiring is correct?

 

[etemplet]

If it is staying energized the electricity is finding a path to the solenoid. Solenoid could also be sticking. Just have to troubleshoot and figure it out. These bastards are sneaky.

 

[Grim]

I'm still working on this issue. Things that I have done and figured out so far.
1. Once the engine is warm it fires right up, no issues.
2. Replaced the solenoid with new one and it does the same thing.
3. Only thing I haven't replaced/rebuilt is the starter.

With the starter. I had a weird issues come up which leads me to believe the starter is good. Here is what happened. I bought a new solenoid (it was bad out the box) and installed it. When I hit the starter switch, the starter blasted off, not like my issue. I thought I had a run away ski so I pulled the choke, nothing, pulled the spark plug wires, nothing, then I realize it wasn't running but that it was just the starter continuously going. So I unplugged the battery, it finally stopped, it probably took 15 or so secs for this process. I put the old solenoid in to verify everything was ok. So this issues leads me to believe that the starter is good due to it performing normal with the bad solenoid. Does that sound correct?

Any other ideas on what would cause the starting issue? Grounds? could any electronics be weak? Could compression be the issue (when cold).

** just thought of something, when the starter was running normally with the bad solenoid the bendix must not have been engaged or the ski would have started......right?

 

[etemplet]

Replace the starter. I'd go SBT. It's not worth fighting.

 

[Grim]

Replace the starter. I'd go SBT. It's not worth fighting.

What's your thoughts on rebuilding it? Is it better than SBT or nominal?

 

[etemplet]

What's your thoughts on rebuilding it? Is it better than SBT or nominal?

You're having starter problems. I'm not sure replacing the brushes is gonna give you "new starter power". In my opinion you are still rolling the dice. Way cheaper to replace the brushes though. I don't like working on starters because I always clean them up and paint them. Take me a while. Everytime I do one I swear I'm not gonna rebuild another one. LOL I still do.

Good Luck

 

[POPPS]

Things that stick,,,selenoid,,,startstop switch…

 

[Grim]

Well, I'm at a loss, I put in a used OEM starter and its doing the same thing, seems a little stronger but still not cranking right (surges). Everything in the "starting" line has been changed but the start switch and the brain. What' s the chances that the switch is "bad". It works when I press it to start and it works to cut off the engine when it is running.

 

[TheGTIjetguy]

I guess you are still having the problem? I would recommend voltage drop testing the entire starting circuit one wire and component at a time.
If it is a new starter and a good battery, then there is either resistance somewhere that is stopping good current flow, or a problem in the switch/mpem circuit that is causing the solenoid to intermittently open and cut off the starter while cranking.
A voltage drop test will tell you where you are loosing voltage along the way.
Starter circuits are very simple, just remember there are two separate circuits, a low amp side that closes the solenoid and a high amp side that feeds the starter.

 

[Grim]

I did one other check while I have the ski in the garage. I check the charging voltage. The battery shows 12.7 . When I fire it up and raise the RPM to around 5K, it goes up to about 13.33 ish. I have read that the top is 14.7. I am wondering if this reading is good enough or too weak.

 

[mikidymac]

The 13.33 is fine and is charging.

 

[Grim]

Still beating this dead horse. I was doing more research and ran across this (on another forum)

Quote: It's very possible you have a relay "latching" problem in the MPEM. Find the output to the start solenoid on the AMP connector and backprobe it. Watch the DC voltage as you hit the start button and see if it keeps dropping out.

Any electrician gurus out there. After I read this whole thread they were saying the rectifier could be bad and bleeding A/C voltage back to the MPEM and causing it to shut off the starter and then it starts over, causing the repeated starting. I don't think I can replace the rectifier on mine, its built in to the MPEM! (right) I'll be honest I don't really understand this stuff as much as I do mechanical stuff.

So what does this really mean... "Find the output to the start solenoid on the AMP connector and backprop it". I want to check and see if this could be the issue. If it is the problem, is the only solution replacing the MPEM...any other ideas?

 

[TheGTIjetguy]

I would find a high impedance test light (high impedance won’t draw extra current and damage the mpem). Stick the tip of the light into the small power wire coming from mpem at the solenoid keep everything plugged in, and watch as you crank. Light should glow and stay on as long as the start button is pressed.
Also, aftermarket coils are junk in my experience. Definitely not causing your starter issues, but worth an ohm test to see if the are close to spec. Should work good if they ohm out well.

 

[Grim]

I would find a high impedance test light (high impedance won’t draw extra current and damage the mpem). Stick the tip of the light into the small power wire coming from mpem at the solenoid keep everything plugged in, and watch as you crank. Light should glow and stay on as long as the start button is pressed.
Also, aftermarket coils are junk in my experience. Definitely not causing your starter issues, but worth an ohm test to see if the are close to spec. Should work good if they ohm out well.

I am assuming the small power wire is the red wire, that goes to the fuse?

 

[Grim]

Well I cant really explain it but the ski is now cranking correctly. Here is what I did. I was pondering what could be the problem so I took the aftermarket solenoid off and put the original (I assume OEM) back on. Now mind you it was having the weird cranking issue with the OEM solenoid several months ago. That's why I changed it out to begin with. So when I did this I removed all the wiring for the solenoid and on the coil. I did a few checks for ground while everything was off and then put it all back together. I made sure all three wires on the coil were spread out and tight. I verified ground as well once installed. I then reinstalled the red wire for the solenoid. I put it on top of the red battery cable instead on bottom this time. Had the battery on trickle charge all night and today....and bam...she now cranks normally.

I really don't know what the problem was. I am guessing it was either the ground at the coil or something with the red wire on the solenoid.

Two other things that I did do that was different. I found that the purple wire going to the device that measures speed (in the back) had a bad wire (chewed in half) . I fixed it before I started messing with the solenoid. The other think was I notice the one of my spark plugs was not a BR8ES but a B8ES, I changed it out as well. That would be weird if that was the issue all along, probably not though.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and tech advise...it is always welcome. Now on to the over heating and surging at high RPM...I'm almost there!!!

 

[TheGTIjetguy]

Sounds like you fixed it by messing around and fixing your connections. Awesome. Thanks for posting your solutions here for the next person with a similar problem.

 

[Grim]

Sounds like you fixed it by messing around and fixing your connections. Awesome. Thanks for posting your solutions here for the next person with a similar problem.

yes its so strange . I have taken it apart more times than I can count