97 Challenger or 2001 Sportster LE?

[IDoSeaDoo]

Hey guys, I wanted to get your opinions on something. My boat recently gathered interest from a prospective buyer and I'm thinking of letting it go. The boat has a new top end, painted (clean) engine and bilge. Everything works except the bilge pump (will get that fixed soon though). The engine has a couple small tuning issues, but runs (up to 6500rmp). Not sure why it's missing the last 500, but I don't think the buyer will know or care. The boat looks really good for its age, the gelcoat has been really well preserved by the previous two owners, and after my wax job, looks really new. It even has a nice sound system, with a 840W amp, two Polk Audio speakers, 10" Bazooka Bass tube, an extra marine battery to run it all, a custom relay system to charge the audio battery when the motor is running, reconditioned driveline (no cavitation) and new plugs. I even replaced the leaky oil can bushing and exhaust thru-hull gasket, resealed the weedless grate and replaced all the plastic hinges on the various storage compartments. What do you think I can expect for a boat of this caliber? I told the guy $4k and he seemed like was really interested, gave me his phone number in fact.

The reason I want to sell is I think this boat needs a bit more power. Also, it seems like it only has two speeds: idle, or 20+mph. Everything in between is just me pushing a ton of water and making a sh!t-load of noise. I like the concept of direct fuel injection, and especially the fact that they come with a bigger pump (155mm vs the tiny 140). What I don't like, is the fact that they seem to have done away with the manual trim, and the rope locker on the rear trunk. What gives? I love the rope locker, it's so convenient. And the trim? That's nice to have because I like to have it up when I'm screwing around on the waves, but it's better down in the chop. I can def. tell a difference. So What do you guys think, are the 20 extra horses and more precise fuel delivery worth it? Is it more efficient? Quieter? I heard 951s in need a lot more maintenance and are generally not as good as the 787... something about the EPA making them run leaner, and hence burning more top ends... Is the DI engine BRP's Windows Vista? I've heard bad things about those fuel injected motors, but have no personal experience. Let me know before I potentially make a big mistake.

Thanks!

 

[Guest_User]

951`s are great engines when they are carbureted. The DI`s are infested with electrical gremlins.(at least the ski`s) There is major care and maintenance with the DI, the fuel injection air pump could fail, many sensors that could fail, counter balance oil reservoir, etc etc. and they need a watchful eye.
true the larger pumps are more efficient. Not saying you couldnt find a well running boat. but if you start to have issues there aren`t to many people that know the DI electricals all that well, not even the dealer... so if your concerned with working on your boat now and think it is challenging, then maybe the 951 isn`t for you... maybe step up a few years and find one with Merc power.

You could always look for a Yamaha for a well engineered proven jet boat... I`m not brand loyal, but having yamaha`s in the past, they def have a few things that are much much better... I came really close and was watching one for a year. if I knew I`d have this much $$ in my seapoo, I would have bought the yamaha.

as far as your missing RPM`s, it could be various things, from voltage, to the RAVE guillotines hanging up, improprer throttle cable adjustment, and carb/fuel related, WCV related... or even poor compression... you just have to start isolating the would be causes...

good luck in your choice...:cheers:

with any jet boat, you`ll have that period where your pushing water with a lot of noise. get the boat on plane then pull the throttles back until your desired speed. if it falls off plane, then you slowed down to much... there are advantages and disadvantages for all types of drives.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Did they even make a carbed version of this boat? Does DI mean it's injected directly into the cylinder, or is it like a car where fuel shoots into a plenum? Why do they have an air pump?! The reason I'm sticking to this particular hull is I'm limited by how much I can tow. I'm at capacity with this little Challenger as is. I'd love a 4-tec boat, as they're quiet, reliable and fuel efficient, but I can' tow the extra 500lbs.

As for my current boat, I've ruled out compression, fuel filters, raves, cable adjustment, and water reg. adjustment. What is WCV, and what can voltage do to limit me? Mine puts out about 12.5-13 something (depending on what I check it with, fish finder reads lower). Even with just me in it, it doesn't like to hit 7k and tops out around 36-38...

 

[Dr Honda]

....
You could always look for a Yamaha for a well engineered proven jet boat... ....................

Hu???? What !!!!!!


BAN !!!!! :ban:



Sorry... couldn't resist.


I'm not brand loyal either... and I've owned a bunch of Yamaha toys over the years... but the boats never had the "Fun" factor the seadoo boats did.


IdoSeado:... what palerider is saying is true. I like the newer boats... but I don't think I would personally own a 951 EFI or Di rotax toy. Even though... I'm more watchful that most people... it's just too complex for a basic toy. Yes... you will get a bigger pump, and more HP... there really isn't going to be a "Night and day" difference in what you have now. Oh... and the last thing on that subject... the 951 engine didn't have a very long life, compared to the 800 and smaller seadoo/rotax engines. 200 hrs is typical for a rebuild. Sure... I've seen some get into the 400 hr mark... but that's not the norm. So... there is a good chance that a 2001 951 is ready to give up.

Next... the manual trim was ONLY on a couple years of the single engine challenger, and the rope locker was only on a couple years of the challenger and Speedster. So... the really didn't get rid of those items... it's more like... they were never installed. FYI... they were never offered in the "Sportster" model.


If you have someone who is willing to pay $4k for a older seadoo boat, with running issues... then take the money and run !!!!! Personally... a 16 year old bottom end, with a fresh top will not last long, and I wouldn't even consider buying it, unless the price was WAY down. ($1500 to $2k) I'm not trying to be harsh... just being truthful. If that boat was perfect, and had a new or fully rebuilt engine... that is the only way it would be worth $4k to me.


If I was looking at smaller boats again.... I would look at the 16' speedster. It's a little bigger than what you have now, so it will take the rough water better, but is still small enough for one person to handle. And... since it has 2 of the 800 engines... with 2 of the 140mm pumps... that power combo will trump the Sportster LE on both reliability, and performance.

Anyway... just my 2 cents... take it for what it's worth.


****EDIT*****

I saw your second post.... So....

If you are that close to your tow limit... then be careful. But... the LE will be a bit heaver than the older Challenger. Also... what weight are you looking at with your "Tow Limit"???? The boat normally is a dry weight, and doesn't include fuel, oil, gear, or the trailer.


No... the "LE" boat was always a Di engine... and as far as I know... there wasn't a 951 carb engine in the small boats. But... I don't know every year, and every model specifically, so there could have been a short run at the beginning of the newer sportster model that had them.

I think the "WCV" palerider is talking about, is the water regulator.

I would love to give you some advice on how to find that extra 500 RPM (because there will be a significant jump in speed) but the fact is... if you check the normal stuff... it's too had to find from my end of the keyboard. But, I would be suspect of a warn rotary valve (since it's old) or the RAVE valves aren't fitted correctly to your new top-end. OR... it could be as simple as your carbs aren't opening all the way, or the filter mesh in your flame arrestor is plugged up.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I agree, the crank's life is suspect. I ran it by all the specs and it checked out fine, but it probably is pretty tired. I feel that the 16' boat would be loads of fun, but I fear that it may be a bit much for my car to pull. I'm stretching as is towing the challenger with a diesel Jetta. An SUV is not in the cards atm, and I was hoping to not get one until a bit later in life.

As for the twin 787s, what do you think the fuel burn would be on such a craft at cruise? Could the two engines working together give me better cruise economy? I'm not 100% on what my fuel burn is now, but I feel that adding another gas guzzler would murder any sort of fuel economy I have now. I know my buddy's speedster with twin 720's cruises a lot better than mine because of the extra thrust he has from the additional pump, he can plane out at like 3.5k rpmps or something ridiculously low, whereas I need like 5.5-6k to keep mine on on top.

 

[Dr Honda]

Welllllll..........................


Your car isn't really rated to tow over 1000 Lbs... so your boat is already over the limit. Sure... you can find a class 2 hitch that is good to 2000 Lbs... but it doesn't mean it's safe on that car. I personally wouldn't do it... and I would strongly recommend installing a trail brake system to take the load off the car. I don't like to preach, because I've done stupid things in my life... but if you get into an accident, while towing... there is a good chance your insurance will not pay the claim.

OK... enough of that.

At cruse... the fuel consumption wont' be all that much higher than with the boat you have now. Sure... you are feeding 2 engines... but to maintain the same speed, (around 28~30 mph) will require less throttle. The problem is... you may now want a faster cruse, and at full throttle... it will burn 2x the fuel.


You should be planing out a lower RPM. (depending on weight) But I had a single 720 Sportster, and if I was by myself... it would plane at 2700~3000 RPM. If I had 3 people with me... I would have to run it up to 5000 RPM to get out of the water... but I could back it down to 4500 without an issue. (and be running at 28~30 mph) But... 2x the pumps... you have 2x the "Push."

With that said... if it takes 5500~6000 to keep you on step... your pump is in bad shape... and that could also be the source of your lost RPM's.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

You should be planing out a lower RPM. (depending on weight) But I had a single 720 Sportster, and if I was by myself... it would plane at 2700~3000 RPM. If I had 3 people with me... I would have to run it up to 5000 RPM to get out of the water... but I could back it down to 4500 without an issue. (and be running at 28~30 mph) But... 2x the pumps... you have 2x the "Push."

With that said... if it takes 5500~6000 to keep you on step... your pump is in bad shape... and that could also be the source of your lost RPM's.

Damnit! I thought I had the pump all worked out. I put in a new wear ring, made sure the impeller clearance was good, cleaned up and sharpened the impeller, used new neoprene ring, and know for a fact that it's not a problem with the shaft seal. I guess it's time to rip off and reseal that ride-plate. Grrrr I was hoping I would never have to do that. Are there any special precautions I should abide by when doing this? I plan on taking the pump off and using a hydraulic jack to separate it from the hull. Would engine RTV work to seal it back up after I maticulously clean the surfaces? Somehow, I feel that it's not going to make a difference, but it's just a hunch.

 

[Guest_User]

have any pics of the impeller? are you absolutely sure your leaking air thru the ride plate?
WCV= water control valve, yes...

 

[Dr Honda]

Well.... are you getting cavitation? If you mash the throttle... do the RPM's spike, before you accelerate? (like spinning tires in a car?)

Personally... I don't think I would try to remove a ride plate, unless there was cavitation, that you couldn't find the source. More than one time... I've seen people break the shoe trying to remove it.

If you clean the edges very well... you can use black RTV and seal it. (like calking a tub) If that works... then when it starts the wear, and leak again... then you can take the time to do it right. (remove, and re-seal)


I'm thinking there may be a problem with your impeller. It could be bent... and the pitch is higher than it should be. In turn... it could be bogging the engine.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

No, no pics. I forgot to snap a few when I had it apart. And as for the ride-plate, no I'm not sure it's the problem, but according to Doc Honda's reply, I've got to still be cavitating. There is nothing else it could be. Yesterday I had quite a bit of water in the hull, so much so that on takeoff, it completely covered the driveshaft seal, eliminating any chance that it was causing trouble. New wear ring with good tolerances and new neoprene seal all point to the ride-plate :/

 

[Guest_User]

No, no pics. I forgot to snap a few when I had it apart. And as for the ride-plate, no I'm not sure it's the problem, but according to Doc Honda's reply, I've got to still be cavitating. There is nothing else it could be. Yesterday I had quite a bit of water in the hull, so much so that on takeoff, it completely covered the driveshaft seal, eliminating any chance that it was causing trouble. New wear ring with good tolerances and new neoprene seal all point to the ride-plate :/

those are not the only areas where water can get in the hull, bond line, exhaust outlet, WCV, other small hoses...

here is an idea before you take anything apart:

have someone take a video of the engine running while underway, start off with a dry hull and shoot your footage. we will also hear the engine and if there is any cavitation by the way the boat responds...

I was chasing a water leak, and everytime I idled and checked there was no leak, I had the misses video the engines while planing off and as soon as I got on the throttles I found the leak, well she did really, it was a failed WCV...

good luck

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I'm pretty sure I know where the water is coming in from. I have good reason to suspect the muffler gasket area. Going to seal that up next. I'll try to take and upload a video this week. I think I have a tuning day coming up

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Would someone please enlighten me as to all the differences between the carbed 787 and the DI 947? I know that the latter has an intank fuel pump capable of delivering 107psi to a fuel rail at very low current draw, and that they have reeds instead of the RV that we all know and love (or hate in some cases), but what is the air pump for? What other sensors does it use? Is there any way to purchase a fuel management system to better tune it as it's designed to run borderline lean? I hear of people going through top-ends like a fat kid through jelly beans. I'm pretty sure it's caused by lean conditions when either the pump starts to give out, or the filters get clogged. If I do get this boat, I plan on always running EGT, but also to enrich the fuel delivery.

 

[Stevego]

For clarification the 2001 Sportster LE is a CARB engine. I had one! The DI only started as of 2004.
Info here: http://www.seadoosource.com/boatengineref.html

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I'm looking at an 03 and they say it's a DI

 

[ben6119]

My 03' Sportster LE is a carb engine as well, I bought it with the driveline apart and am still putting it together so I have never had it out but my local Watercraft shop said the single 951 Sportster is a fairly rare and very fun boat, I hope to find out this weekend!

~B~

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I'm really split on whether I want the DI or the Carb version. The DI seems like a much better idea, what with no scavenging losses and at least 2 gallons less consuption per hour, but the Carbs are tuneable (not easily though), and there's no expensive DI pump... I know all you guys think DI is too complex/expensive, but I feel that if you monitor the EGTs and have it warn you when it's running lean, it could potentially be a reliable boat. Maybe?

 

[howie099]

Thoese newer 951

 

[Guest_User]

I'm really split on whether I want the DI or the Carb version. The DI seems like a much better idea, what with no scavenging losses and at least 2 gallons less consuption per hour, but the Carbs are tuneable (not easily though), and there's no expensive DI pump... I know all you guys think DI is too complex/expensive, but I feel that if you monitor the EGTs and have it warn you when it's running lean, it could potentially be a reliable boat. Maybe?

monitoring the EGT`s will not help with the known issues these DI`s have. The real issue with the DI`s are the electrical gremlins... your boat could be running fine one moment and then like crap the next. They are not reliable by any means..
yes the air pump for the fuel/rail/pressure could fail, but sensors, switches, fuel pump, MPEM/ECU, then codes start popping up and it`s good night Irene.

a friend had RX 951 carb`d ski that had 250+ hours last time I heard, I ran with this ski so I know the condition. his secret to longevity was foging the engine after every ride/clean up... Unlike Yamaha with their nikasil coated cylinders SeaPoos rust, and rust big time...

 

[howie099]

Pass on 951's all you hear is bad on the engines. I never hear anything good on them. Stick with the older 2-strokes ot get a 4-stoke model. Most companies went the NI coated cylinders when they switched to power valves. I have one of the last Yamaha 1200 engines with the standard cylinders. That ski is beat on the water pulls right up when you hit the gas.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Well, for better or worse, I just called the buyer contact back and told him I'm willing to sell, but I'm pretty firm on price. If I don't sell it, O WELL I like this boat and have a blast on it. It's damn clean for a 97, and looks sweet! I love approaching it as it glints in the sun at the dock. I'm going to take it out this Wed. and really play around with the tune, maybe replace the voltage reg (spare off an XP). and see if it makes a difference in peak RPM.

 

[Guest_User]

Pass on 951's all you hear is bad on the engines. I never hear anything good on them. Stick with the older 2-strokes ot get a 4-stoke model. Most companies went the NI coated cylinders when they switched to power valves. I have one of the last Yamaha 1200 engines with the standard cylinders. That ski is beat on the water pulls right up when you hit the gas.

I had a 2002 RXDI, with only 56 hours on the clock, something failed and it went into limp mode. had to get towed 13 miles back to the dock. the whole time the ski would start but not accel past 1750 rpm`s.
Took it to the dealer for warranty, and wound up leaving with a 04 GTXsc model. when I came back for the dealer 10 hour service I asked about the RXDI and the counterman said I broke the crank bc the ski was submerged... hahahahaha that is sooo not true and he nearly got fired for starting a riot in the dealership.
anyways the dealerships don`t even have a handle on the DI`s back then, there is a reason they discontinued that system...

 

[howie099]

I had a 2002 RXDI, with only 56 hours on the clock, something failed and it went into limp mode. had to get towed 13 miles back to the dock. the whole time the ski would start but not accel past 1750 rpm`s.
Took it to the dealer for warranty, and wound up leaving with a 04 GTXsc model. when I came back for the dealer 10 hour service I asked about the RXDI and the counterman said I broke the crank bc the ski was submerged... hahahahaha that is sooo not true and he nearly got fired for starting a riot in the dealership.
anyways the dealerships don`t even have a handle on the DI`s back then, there is a reason they discontinued that system...

That's funny they thought the crank broke. How would the engine turn if the crank was in 2 pieces. I think most dealers don't know how to repair stuff past anything more than a few years old. It's the same with motorcycles. Your bike is over 10 years old most dealers won't work on them since the techs don't know how to fix them. I think most independent shops do better work than most dealers do. I only go to one local dealer here DGY for stuff. They are the most honest ones around here.

 

[Guest_User]

That's funny they thought the crank broke. How would the engine turn if the crank was in 2 pieces. I think most dealers don't know how to repair stuff past anything more than a few years old. It's the same with motorcycles. Your bike is over 10 years old most dealers won't work on them since the techs don't know how to fix them. I think most independent shops do better work than most dealers do. I only go to one local dealer here DGY for stuff. They are the most honest ones around here.

hahah, well what makes my scenario worse is that this occurred in June of 2004 and they didn`t know squat then...:facepalm: