240 EFI cranking issue with video

[mdchachi]

Today I put my boat in the water for the first time since last fall.
The battery was new last year and it's been on a tender all winter.
It started right up in my driveway. I put in the water and started/stopped it three times in the space of about 15 minutes. Each time it started immediately just like it should.
On the 4th time I could not start it no matter how many times I tried.
It seemed like the starter kept disengaging too soon just as it was starting to turn over.
I finally had to give up and get towed back to shore. Then, an hour later back in my driveway, it started up just like normal. Any thoughts as to what could be going on?
Here's a video of the behavior when it wouldn't turn over.

[video]https://youtu.be/9JhasmQsDoo[/video]

 

[Dr Honda]

The link to the vid isn't working. It's taking me to my own vids. Double check it.



But, what you are describing is simply a weak battery. The Merc's like a nice strong battery. If the battery isn't up to the job then....

1) The starter drops as soon as you hear a pop

2) It never fires, because the computer won't come to life.


OK... just because the battery was new last year, doesn't mean that it's still good. I've seen A LOT of batteries come off the shelf, and be bad. Also... over the years, I've learned that a lot of battery tenders don't keep the battery healthy. Not to mention... some will simply boil out the battery if they are left hook to the battery all winter long. Because of that, I stopped using them, other than a short (overnight) on smaller batteries. (PWC, Motorcycles, etc.) And finally... a tender looks just a voltage. Because the current it so low (an amp or less) sometimes you can get the "Surface Voltage" to come up to 13.6v, but you really haven't put a charge in the battery. At that point... the tender shuts down.



So... here's what I'd do.


1) Check the battery water level.

2) Put it on a proper charger, and charge it.

 

[mdchachi]

I fixed the link. If the battery is the issue, is it possible that it's not charging well when running? Like an alternator problem?
Though I didn't really run it long enough for the engine to charge it...

As I mentioned it started up fine 4 times in a row (all within about 10 minutes). Just the 5th time it did this.

This is the battery minder I'm using.
http://www.***********/gp/product/B00D7HZ6FC

What is a "proper charger"? I have a 10-year-old Sears charger but not sure if that's what you'd consider proper...

Thank you.

 

[mdchachi]

Took the battery out and took it to the auto parts store and it passed their load testing machine...
Any other thoughts? Solenoid? Engine coil? Loose ground?

 

[Dr Honda]

I fixed the link. If the battery is the issue, is it possible that it's not charging well when running? Like an alternator problem?
Though I didn't really run it long enough for the engine to charge it...

As I mentioned it started up fine 4 times in a row (all within about 10 minutes). Just the 5th time it did this.

This is the battery minder I'm using.
http://www.***********/gp/product/B00D7HZ6FC

What is a "proper charger"? I have a 10-year-old Sears charger but not sure if that's what you'd consider proper...

Sounds like you started it more times than you put charge back in. But it's simple to check. Put a volt meter on the battery, and run the engine. The voltage should climb up to about 13.5v or a little more if it's charging. On the 240 EFI... it has 2 charger sections, so you can disconnect on regulator, and do the test... then disconnect the other, and re-run it to make sure both sides are working.


A proper charger for a full sized battery is 10A to 20A. An old sears/Craftsman/Diehard charger is great.

Took the battery out and took it to the auto parts store and it passed their load testing machine...
Any other thoughts? Solenoid? Engine coil? Loose ground?

First... the idiots at the auto parts store don't know what end of the screwdriver to use. OK... you may find one or two that know how to turn a wrench... but most don't.

Second... don't trust the load testers in the local auto parts store. Assuming the test is done right... and that the machine is actually in good shape... not all engines need a good strong battery. I've owned toys that will fire even is the battery is only strong enough to barely push the engine over. The Merc isn't that way. My Polaris is the same way. The battery can be strong enough to spin the engine over fast, and keep the dash lit... but there's no spark from the CDI. So... Just do your own tests. Put a meter on the battery, and crank the engine. If the voltage sags below 10.8v... then there can be a problem. FYI.. this needs to be done in the water, so there is an extra load on the engine.


But that aside... just put a real charge in the battery, and try it again. It may just need a good charge to wake it from it's winter nap.

 

[mdchachi]

I put the boat back in on Sunday after charging the battery. It started right up like it typically does and I ran it straight for almost two hours (didn't want to risk it conking out again and ruining my nephew's tubing dreams). Didn't have time to put on a voltmeter. Yesterday I took out again -- again with guests -- and ran it straight for an hour. At the end of the ride, I connected the meter. At rest the battery was reading over 14v. During crank it bounced down to about 12 briefly. While running it was at 15v.

So maybe I'm good to go. Nevertheless, this touchy voltage issue makes me want to have some backup available.
What do people generally do? Keep a charged, spare battery on hand? Get a Battery Jumper like the "Allstart 556 Marine Battery Jump Starter with AC Inverter"?

Thanks.

 

[Dr Honda]

I don't think it's a "Touchy" issue at all. The battery needed a real charge. And... simply running the boat for a couple hours, without re-starting it, did the job.

AND...

Now that we know that the engine output is there... if there's another starting issue... then the battery is just bad.



What most people do is either charge the battery before going out for a day... or mount 2 batteries in the boat. That way, you have a lot of power to run the radio, lights, and so on. AND, have plenty of power to start.

 

[henryb]

Sounds like you started it more times than you put charge back in. But it's simple to check. Put a volt meter on the battery, and run the engine. The voltage should climb up to about 13.5v or a little more if it's charging. On the 240 EFI... it has 2 charger sections, so you can disconnect on regulator, and do the test... then disconnect the other, and re-run it to make sure both sides are working.


A proper charger for a full sized battery is 10A to 20A. An old sears/Craftsman/Diehard charger is great.






First... the idiots at the auto parts store don't know what end of the screwdriver to use. OK... you may find one or two that know how to turn a wrench... but most don't.

Second... don't trust the load testers in the local auto parts store. Assuming the test is done right... and that the machine is actually in good shape... not all engines need a good strong battery. I've owned toys that will fire even is the battery is only strong enough to barely push the engine over. The Merc isn't that way. My Polaris is the same way. The battery can be strong enough to spin the engine over fast, and keep the dash lit... but there's no spark from the CDI. So... Just do your own tests. Put a meter on the battery, and crank the engine. If the voltage sags below 10.8v... then there can be a problem. FYI.. this needs to be done in the water, so there is an extra load on the engine.


But that aside... just put a real charge in the battery, and try it again. It may just need a good charge to wake it from it's winter nap.

Hey Tony, This is such great information... I have had similar issues with my starter occasionally, it seems to stop cranking before it actually starts up. I will definitely try putting the volt meter on the battery directly while cranking if it ever happens again. Thanks again!

 

[Dr Honda]

Hey Tony, This is such great information... I have had similar issues with my starter occasionally, it seems to stop cranking before it actually starts up. I will definitely try putting the volt meter on the battery directly while cranking if it ever happens again. Thanks again!

Yep... the Merc engines will have a tendency of doing that. I can tell when my battery is getting weak. It will crank fine, but then just when it "pops"... the starter will drop. When that happens... I try it one more time (it may catch) or I throw my battery switch to "Both". Putting both of my batteries on the starter always takes care of the issue.

 

[mdchachi]

Touchy or design issue or whatever you want to call it. It's certainly unexpected behavior for the engine to be able to crank mechanically but not spark. I must have turned it over 30 times and it was plenty strong enough to spin the engine.
In hindsight the previous owner warned me about this. He said he typically carried a spare battery. He told me a story about one time he was anchored in a bay in Lake Huron, ran down the battery, couldn't start and he literally swam off the boat, bought a battery in the marina and swam back to the boat carrying a battery (!)
Anyway thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

 

[Tomfrmnh]

Tony,

Does this happen to the 210hp engine as well? Think I will go to a two battery installation.

 

[Dr Honda]

Tony,

Does this happen to the 210hp engine as well? Think I will go to a two battery installation.

The 210 isn't as bad since it doesn't have the electrical load of all the fuel injection parts. (injectors, computer, high pressure pump and so on) BUT... when the battery gets marginal... yes... it can have the same problems.



This isn't really an issue. If the battery is healthy, and has a full charge... you will be fine. I ran my first year or so with one battery. I just kept in mind, that if we were anchored for a couple hr's, and the radio was on... that I needed to either turn it off, or run the boat. In mdchachi's case... he THOUGHT the battery was charged since he had it on a "Tender". But in reality... it wasn't. AND, he amplified the issue because he re-started the engine a bunch of times without running it long enough to really get a charge back into the battery.



Now... with that all said... the 210 has half of the charging output of the 240 engine. You still have 20a available, so it's not weak... but it may take longer to bring up a weak battery.

 

[mdchachi]

Well I'm sorry to say I'm back with the same problem. Seems like something else is going on...

Today it started fine and I ran it for about 10 minutes or so. Shut it off for about 5 minutes while I was setting up the towable and it started back up fine.
Pulled a towable for about 20 minutes. Shut it off for a couple minutes and then it wouldn't start up again with similar behavior as in my original post (and video). I tried several times. I let it sit for about 10 minutes at one point and still wouldn't fire up even though it seemed like it was cranking fine. So I ended up getting a tow and taking it out.

Right after taking it out, I tried it on the trailer and it did fire up at that time. Back home I measured the voltage of the battery and it was at 14V. I put the battery on a charger at 2amp setting. It showed 100% from the start but the "full charge" LED didn't light until about 90 minutes later if that tells you anything. The battery is a Super Start 34MAGM (775 CCA / 955 MCA). Supposedly I only need 520 CCA / 670 MCA (according to the manual).

What should I try next?

 

[Dr Honda]

Did you check the voltage while cranking?

I went back, and your video was working now. And from what I saw... that's just a classic low cranking voltage. BUT... a warn starter will do the same thing. SO... if you are 100% sure that the battery is good... I would pull the starter, take it apart... and give it a good cleaning. Sometimes a lightly burnt com, and dust left over from the brushes can cause issues. Also, if you need new brushes... you will be able to see.


I personally don't have any experience with the "Super Start" batteries... but I know some batteries are just crap. (wal-mart brand, Chief auto, interstate, and a few others)


If you still have the throttle adder hooked to the steering wheel... then you can turn the wheel all the way to one side... and that will help get you fired up.

 

[mdchachi]

Here's hopefully the end of the story...
I don't trust myself to pull apart the starter and fix it quickly without messing something up so I decided to buy a new starter from DB Electrical. Replacing the starter looked like something even I could do. I pulled the old one off and put the new one on. I was a little concerned if I wired it back correctly or not (the manual didn't show all the extra black wires and where they went and I failed to take pictures before I took them off) but I seemed to get them right. It started up fine on the trailer. So I went to tighten things up and the bolt on the negative lead wasn't getting tight. And I thought oh man it's stripped and that's what I get for buying cheap Chinese aftermarket. But then the bolt head broke off. So it wasn't the starter's fault that the original bolt was fatigued or that I tightened it too much and there I was stuck with the shaft of the bolt sunk in the hole. Not being an expert at extracting such things I tried using a drill and extractor but decided to give up before doing damage. Luckily my neighbor knew what he was doing and got the shaft out for me. So... I put it back in and took the boat out for a quick test tonight. In a half-hour run I shut it off and on about 10 times and it seems to be back to normal!! I'll tackle rebuilding the original starter at some point but hopefully this one will last for a bit. Thanks again to Dr. Honda for all your help.