I am in the market for a Sea Doo. I have found a 2005 RXT 215 with only 53.6 hours on it. The price is $6000. The guy he and his Mom bought the thing new in July of 2005. He said it had been winterized every year at the end on the season by the Marina where it was purchased. He said he got burnt out on it quick. He wanted to sale it 3 years ago but his mom wanted to keep it. He said it did not get ridden at all last year. It has not been cranked since it was winterized at the end of 2009. I am kind of scared of this Ski. It is in great shape but it was stored under an over hang on the man's building. It had the cover on it the whole time. But with it sitting for 2 years in the elements should I stay away from this Ski? What are some potential problems that could of developed. Thanks for your help
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2005 rxt 215
- Thread starter ajsherr21
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First off, that is too much money for a 2005. You should be able to find one in great condition for under $5K right now.
Yes; I would be concerned about it. A low hour 2004-2006 RXT is not necessarily a good thing. These year skis had several inherent problems:
1. Ceramic washers in the supercharger clutch; they grenade and spit little pieces of ceramic into the oil pump. They must be changed ASAP.
2. Weak flywheel bolts (fixed in 2006)
3. Poor exhaust valve design. Had hollow shafts, and rust (mainly from sitting, hint, hint) on shafts cause the heads to pop off and destroy the engine. (fixed in very late 2006)
I would mainly be worried about #3 above. I would not own a 2004-2006 215 4-TEC without fixing those 3 items above.
For $6K, you should be able to find a 2007 that doesn't have problems #2 or #3 (but still needs the ceramic SC washers changed out...)
Yes; I would be concerned about it. A low hour 2004-2006 RXT is not necessarily a good thing. These year skis had several inherent problems:
1. Ceramic washers in the supercharger clutch; they grenade and spit little pieces of ceramic into the oil pump. They must be changed ASAP.
2. Weak flywheel bolts (fixed in 2006)
3. Poor exhaust valve design. Had hollow shafts, and rust (mainly from sitting, hint, hint) on shafts cause the heads to pop off and destroy the engine. (fixed in very late 2006)
I would mainly be worried about #3 above. I would not own a 2004-2006 215 4-TEC without fixing those 3 items above.
For $6K, you should be able to find a 2007 that doesn't have problems #2 or #3 (but still needs the ceramic SC washers changed out...)
Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
I'd offer them $4k for it and hold firmly to that, or walk away. If they take it, you can change out the supercharger washers and the exhaust valves for less than $2k (you can do the SC washers yourself in one afternoon for around $100 for a washer kit and tool set) and still be ready for summertime! But only make the offer if you really like this particular Seadoo and want it!
Also keep in mind that it'll likely need a new battery after sitting for so long. Keep your offer low, it's been sitting for awhile and is probably not lake-ready at this moment! For $6K the thing should be ready to hit the water the day you purchase it!!!
- Michael
Also keep in mind that it'll likely need a new battery after sitting for so long. Keep your offer low, it's been sitting for awhile and is probably not lake-ready at this moment! For $6K the thing should be ready to hit the water the day you purchase it!!!
- Michael
Good post....
I'd walk away from this one. This member has done his homework. The 2005 models were not the best year for the 4-TEC motor. The problems listed above are why. Also, you can't believe the seller is entirely truthful.
Walk away......:cheers:
I'd walk away from this one. This member has done his homework. The 2005 models were not the best year for the 4-TEC motor. The problems listed above are why. Also, you can't believe the seller is entirely truthful.
Walk away......:cheers:
thanks. Question though?
Has Sea Doo taking care of there supercharger problems you mentioned? A buddy of mine that works at the local cycle shop told me to steer clear of Sea Doo's because of the problems with th super charger washers coming apart and getting in the oil pump. Is the superchargers on the 2008 and up models designed better? Thanks
Has Sea Doo taking care of there supercharger problems you mentioned? A buddy of mine that works at the local cycle shop told me to steer clear of Sea Doo's because of the problems with th super charger washers coming apart and getting in the oil pump. Is the superchargers on the 2008 and up models designed better? Thanks
Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
The SC washers are an easily fixable problem though, as long as you replace them before they fail. About $100 and an evening of time, if you do it yourself.
I believe the 2008 and newer models no longer use the ceramic washers. The older models, well just change them out with the new style metal washers and be done with it.
- Michael
I believe the 2008 and newer models no longer use the ceramic washers. The older models, well just change them out with the new style metal washers and be done with it.
- Michael
I just posted this comment in the other thread of yours...
Yes, they sorted out the problems, but took them awhile to fix it.
The earliest SC clutches (2003) used no washers, per se, just the pack of spring washers. In 2004 they went to the ceramic washers, as "ceramic" everything (bearings, etc) was the hot stuff then. This proved to be wrong; the ceramic washers started falling apart.
In 2008 they switched to Titanium Oxide coated steel washers, (gold in color) and everyone started replacing their washers with these gold ones. The other major change that year was a totally different way to oil the supercharger bearings. The 2007 and older engines had a spray nozzle that squirted at the side of the shaft. In 2008 they went to a larger hollow in the SC shaft, and an oiler nozzle that squirted into the end of the hollow shaft, which is a much better way to oil the bearings and SC clutch washers.
They soon learned that the gold washers were no good. They are made of a brittle steel that shattered, mostly in higher boost applications. In 2009 they switched to a rough gray colored steel washer, and the consensus is that they got it right. (finally)
Bottom line is the SC in the newest skis is pretty robust. If you have a 2008 ski, you should change out the gold washers, and if you have a 2007 and earlier, you should at least change out the washers for the new steel ones. Also, a lot of people simply rebuild the SC with the newest kit (suffix 101) that has the new large inside diameter shaft and the newest washers. The other good mod is to retrofit the new (2008) style oil spray nozzle.
Yes, they sorted out the problems, but took them awhile to fix it.
The earliest SC clutches (2003) used no washers, per se, just the pack of spring washers. In 2004 they went to the ceramic washers, as "ceramic" everything (bearings, etc) was the hot stuff then. This proved to be wrong; the ceramic washers started falling apart.
In 2008 they switched to Titanium Oxide coated steel washers, (gold in color) and everyone started replacing their washers with these gold ones. The other major change that year was a totally different way to oil the supercharger bearings. The 2007 and older engines had a spray nozzle that squirted at the side of the shaft. In 2008 they went to a larger hollow in the SC shaft, and an oiler nozzle that squirted into the end of the hollow shaft, which is a much better way to oil the bearings and SC clutch washers.
They soon learned that the gold washers were no good. They are made of a brittle steel that shattered, mostly in higher boost applications. In 2009 they switched to a rough gray colored steel washer, and the consensus is that they got it right. (finally)
Bottom line is the SC in the newest skis is pretty robust. If you have a 2008 ski, you should change out the gold washers, and if you have a 2007 and earlier, you should at least change out the washers for the new steel ones. Also, a lot of people simply rebuild the SC with the newest kit (suffix 101) that has the new large inside diameter shaft and the newest washers. The other good mod is to retrofit the new (2008) style oil spray nozzle.
Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
Here's what catches my interest, however: the pre-2008 4-TEC engines have known issues... there's been time to find their faults and find ways to correct them, but what issues have been introduced in the 2008 and newer models though? They have fewer hours on them... who's to say that the "new and improved" hollow shaft's won't start breaking apart after X number of hours now? IDK.
Remember, at one point SeaDoo introduced hollow exhaust valves into their 4-TEC engines and I imagine that was hailed as a great improvement as well at the time. Eeek! The Ceramic washers were also introduced as the latest and greatest at one time also.... Eeek again!
There's a phrase us computer science people coined I believe: Beware The Bleeding Edge (of Technology).
The latest newest thing on the block with all the bells and whistles, may have hidden gotcha's.
I don't claim to be an expert or anything on SeaDoo's, I'm just saying....
It's a pity, but it seems like SeaDoo uses it's customer base as beta testers for all their newest ideas. :banghead:
- Michael
Remember, at one point SeaDoo introduced hollow exhaust valves into their 4-TEC engines and I imagine that was hailed as a great improvement as well at the time. Eeek! The Ceramic washers were also introduced as the latest and greatest at one time also.... Eeek again!
There's a phrase us computer science people coined I believe: Beware The Bleeding Edge (of Technology).
The latest newest thing on the block with all the bells and whistles, may have hidden gotcha's.
I don't claim to be an expert or anything on SeaDoo's, I'm just saying....
It's a pity, but it seems like SeaDoo uses it's customer base as beta testers for all their newest ideas. :banghead:
- Michael
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You have a very good point. However, most of the issues with the superchargers have been known for years by the tuning community. They are the ones that found the weakness in the 2008 metal washers, and found it in a short time. In essence, they put many years worth of stress on these parts in a few hours. The latest rebuild kits seem to hold up in high boost applications really well.
The hollow exhaust valve problem took time (and corrosion) to make itself known. There are tons of blown 4-TECS out there, with there owners not really sure what to do with them.
Not much else has been introduced on the newest 215 HP engines. Keep in mind that the HP bar keeps rising. A brand new 215 HP engine today is heaps more reliable than when they were introduced in 2004. But the bar is now at 260 HP, soon to be 300 HP. These engines naturally will not be as reliable as the 215. If reliability is what you seek, you are correct to stay off the bleeding edge.
The hollow exhaust valve problem took time (and corrosion) to make itself known. There are tons of blown 4-TECS out there, with there owners not really sure what to do with them.
Not much else has been introduced on the newest 215 HP engines. Keep in mind that the HP bar keeps rising. A brand new 215 HP engine today is heaps more reliable than when they were introduced in 2004. But the bar is now at 260 HP, soon to be 300 HP. These engines naturally will not be as reliable as the 215. If reliability is what you seek, you are correct to stay off the bleeding edge.
Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
You have very good points also, and I do not disagree. Bottom line: the OP has to make his own decision regarding this 2005 RXT SeaDoo.
btw: How is SeaDoo squeezing more horsepower out of the newer 4-TEC engines? Are they increasing the cylinder cc's or something else? Just curious... 215 hp is already A LOT of power for such a small boat!
Regards!
- Michael
btw: How is SeaDoo squeezing more horsepower out of the newer 4-TEC engines? Are they increasing the cylinder cc's or something else? Just curious... 215 hp is already A LOT of power for such a small boat!
Regards!
- Michael
Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
Every decently nice lake-ready on a trailer 2006 RXT I've seen listed for the past 6 months on Ebay has gone for a little over $6k without exception. The few 2005 RXT's (green/black models) I've watched on Ebay have gone for a little over $5K. But all have been listed as lake-ready with under 80hrs and in very clean condition.
I watch them not because I'm looking to buy another one right now, but just because I want to see what they're going for. Eventually I'd like to get a 2nd red/black 2006 RXT so I can have a pair of them, but not right now. The 2005 green/black RXT's are kinda neat looking too so I usually watch them as well.
As many as I've watched sell on Ebay for these prices, I'd be suspicious if somebody was looking to sell one of the 2005/2006 RXT models at a significantly lower price... I'd have to wonder just what's wrong with it that the seller isn't saying!
My 2006 RXT came off Craigs List, but I got it very cheap because it had a bent connecting rod on #1 piston and the engine had been completely disassembled by a dealership... the owner balked at their estimate of over $4K to replace the bent connecting rod and re-assemble and re-install the engine! I don't blame him honestly! He wanted out of it, and I liked the hull colors A LOT and I got it at the right price such that if the engine didn't work out I could still afford a replacement engine at least and still be well under $6K into it! A few weekends and a few hundred dollars later and I was able to put the engine back together. After putitng a new battery in it, it ran great! I can't wait for things to warm up around here again!!!!!
- Michael
I watch them not because I'm looking to buy another one right now, but just because I want to see what they're going for. Eventually I'd like to get a 2nd red/black 2006 RXT so I can have a pair of them, but not right now. The 2005 green/black RXT's are kinda neat looking too so I usually watch them as well.
As many as I've watched sell on Ebay for these prices, I'd be suspicious if somebody was looking to sell one of the 2005/2006 RXT models at a significantly lower price... I'd have to wonder just what's wrong with it that the seller isn't saying!
My 2006 RXT came off Craigs List, but I got it very cheap because it had a bent connecting rod on #1 piston and the engine had been completely disassembled by a dealership... the owner balked at their estimate of over $4K to replace the bent connecting rod and re-assemble and re-install the engine! I don't blame him honestly! He wanted out of it, and I liked the hull colors A LOT and I got it at the right price such that if the engine didn't work out I could still afford a replacement engine at least and still be well under $6K into it! A few weekends and a few hundred dollars later and I was able to put the engine back together. After putitng a new battery in it, it ran great! I can't wait for things to warm up around here again!!!!!
- Michael
djredman99
New Member
They do it by altering the components such as adding superchargers, intercoolers, larger supercharger, etc. The 155 hp Rotax engine is essentially the same engine as the 260 hp RXT-X.
The 155 hp engine has no supercharger and no intercooler.
To get to the 185 hp machine, they added a supercharger. This forces more air into the engine.
To get to 215 hp, they added an intercooler. This cools the air entering the engine via an open-loop cooling system with water from the environment.
To get to 255/260 hp, they added a larger supercharger capable of forcing even more air into the engine.
EDIT: Perhaps I should add that increasing the amount of fuel/air in a cylinder at ignition allows for greater power output. The superchargers compress the air entering the engine allowing more in the cylinder. Intercoolers will keep the air cooler allowing for greater compression.
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Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
Wow! Now that's interesting! So does that mean you can put the larger supercharger from a 255/260hp engine onto a 215 hp engine and get the higher horsepower rating with no other changes basically?
I'd presumed the engine block itself must have been altered with larger cylinders/pistons to get them up to 260hp. There's got to be a limit to just how many ponies you can squeeze out of a given cc engine block.
So you're saying the 4-TEC blocks are essentially unchanged from the 155 hp model up thru the 260 hp model?
Thanks for the insight!
- Michael
I'd presumed the engine block itself must have been altered with larger cylinders/pistons to get them up to 260hp. There's got to be a limit to just how many ponies you can squeeze out of a given cc engine block.
So you're saying the 4-TEC blocks are essentially unchanged from the 155 hp model up thru the 260 hp model?
Thanks for the insight!
- Michael
djredman99
New Member
Yes, that is what I am saying. They are the same engine.
djredman99
New Member
No, the pistons and cylinders are all the same at 100 mm.
Just in case you want proof, you can look in any operators guide/service manual toward the end of the document and look at the CC's, Bore, and Stroke under the technical specifications. They are the same for all the Rotax 4-stroke 155-260 hp models.
Rotax® 4-TECTM. Single Over Head Camshaft (SOHC)
3 Cylinder, 12 valves
1494 cc
60 mm Throttle Body
100 mm Bore
63.4 mm Stroke
And, yes, I would agree that without increasing the engine size, there is a limit as to how much power is possible. We'll just have to see how far Rotax can take it.
djredman99
New Member
As to the original question...
Unless I were to get a deal much like Micheal describes getting, I don't consider buying a 2003-2007 seadoo. I myself am currently looking for a second ski and have been for months. I will probably end up with a 2010-2011 ski unless a deal too good to pass up comes along. Just don't rush your search or you may end up regretting it, but since you came here and asked opinions first, you seem to be on the right track.
Unless I were to get a deal much like Micheal describes getting, I don't consider buying a 2003-2007 seadoo. I myself am currently looking for a second ski and have been for months. I will probably end up with a 2010-2011 ski unless a deal too good to pass up comes along. Just don't rush your search or you may end up regretting it, but since you came here and asked opinions first, you seem to be on the right track.
djredman99
New Member
Well, I don't know if it is quite that easy. There may be differences in the computer among other things. I do not know enough to answer that.
Michael211_2000
Well-Known Member
In my case, I REALLY LOVE the black hull with red seat and hood of the 2006 RXP/RXT model SeaDoo's... had it been any other color combo (from other year models) I wouldn't have been interested in it. I already knew exactly what I was looking for (had been watching them sell on Ebay for some 2 months already when this one came up on Houston Craig's List), and finding just the right one that I could purchase outright without going into any debt was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. It also didn't hurt that it was located a mere 15 miles from where I live, as all the Ebay ones I'd watched were selling in other states from me.
If this one hadn't had the right color combination, or the price hadn't been right, or it's hull had been in poor shape, I'd likely have not been interested in it. It just so happened that everything was perfect from my point of view, so I took the chance (given that the engine was in boxes) and bought the thing!
So again it comes down to what you're looking for and what's important to you. You have to make your own damned decision (as the Oracle said, in the 2nd Matrix movie I believe). Choice! :coolgleam:
But it never hurts to ask for opinions on something.
- Michael
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Wire4Money
New Member
The 215 and 255/260 are forged pistons, whereas the 130/155/185 are cast.
Also note that the NA (130 & 155 HP) engines have a higher compression ration than the SC ones (185, 215, 255/260)
The SC raises the effective compression ratio, so they needed to lower it on the SC engines to enable them to run on pump gas.
They SC engines also have different cams, and of course a whole different set of engine management parts.
The blocks, cranks, head castings, etc from 2002-2005 are all the same. They made some changes in 2006, but you can make parts work for all years with mating up the correct companion parts.
The SC raises the effective compression ratio, so they needed to lower it on the SC engines to enable them to run on pump gas.
They SC engines also have different cams, and of course a whole different set of engine management parts.
The blocks, cranks, head castings, etc from 2002-2005 are all the same. They made some changes in 2006, but you can make parts work for all years with mating up the correct companion parts.
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