2000 Challenger 2000 will not start

[Canned ham]

So just bought above boat yesterday. Started at dealer twice an ran it for 10 seconds each time. Load up brought it home.
Well today planned on taking family to lake. So in prep this am I checked everything and started it again for 10 seconds ran fine.
Loaded up the family headed to the lake. Got it unloaded in the water and started it up while I put up the Bimini top. While putting up the top it idled slower and slower and then cut off. I tried to restart an it would not fire up. Loaded it backup with kids upset and came home. I have been reading the forums and manuals. I have checked that there is fuel coming out of vapor separator by removing the drain plug and putting the switch in the on position. Fuel appears to be pumping out at that level. I have not had a chance to check spark at this point. I am charging the battery now. Looking for a way to test fuel pressure on the rail without a gauge.
Any other suggestions?

Tony

 

[Dr Honda]

Welcome... and sorry for the issue.


Since you are talking about the vapor separator... I'll assume you have a 240 efi engine.


Well... that's a strange one.


Just for giggles... turn the steering wheel all the way to one side, and try to start it. That should bump the throttle a little.


Just an FYI... I know if I don't run my bilge fan for a couple minutes... my engine will fire, stumble and die.


There isnt' any way to test the fuel pressure without a gauge. BUT... it's a regular shrader valve... so a tire gauge will work.


Finally... check for spark... and while the plugs are out... check the compression.

 

[Canned ham]

Update. Have spark.also after charging the battery for an hour or two it tried to start and back fired twice.mi shut it down and pulled the plugs. Wet and black. Went to auto parts store they had 5 plugs and will have the 6th in the morning. Put the five in and cleaned one of the old ones and tried again.fired up and ran for about 30 seconds have hose attached and crimped so I can shut the water off. Anyway tried to restart and it fired back up with the same result. Of idling poorly then cutting off. Checked the fuel rail pressure with a screw driver and fuel squired out pretty good. So I am going to let the battery charge over night and put the 6th plug in tomorrow.
Any ideas on poor idling ?

 

[Canned ham]

Thanks for the update

 

[Dr Honda]

First... a few things....


1) On the EFI engines... low voltage will cause issues. So... if the battery was weak, there can be enough power to crank, but not enough to keep the computer on. That could have been your problem, since it sounds like it was started, and shut off a few times, without being "Run" to charge the battery.

2) if the plugs were "Wet and black"... that's never good. But... here again... starting, and not letting it run can foul the plugs on a 2-stroke.

3) Unlike the Rotax/seedoo engines... the mercury engines can have water flowing, without the engine running. So... there isn't any fear of filling it with water, and causing damage. (so you don't need to pinch off the hose)


Before we go much deeper... please tell me what engine you have, and post the serial number of the power head. Some of the engines have known issues, and fixes. On the early 240... the Port side temp sender goes bad, and the engine will run rich, and have a crappy idle.

 

[LouDoo]

None of my business, but since you got this from a dealer if it were me I would take it back. I don't know in your state but here we have 3 days to cancel the deal, if purchased from a dealer.

Lou

 

[Canned ham]

To Reply to LouDoo. In NC they got rid of that law several years ago. So she is mine now.
And to answer Dr. Honda. the engine serial number is 0E376320. Hope that is the number you were asking for. I found this number on a sticker on the fly wheel cover on a sticker.
Also so the rain last night caused the GFC to kick last night so the battery did not charge. Also I did replace the plugs and it will start stumble and die. I pulled the new plugs out and they are wet. As to turning the wheel to one side to boast the idle. Well it appears that cable is disconnected in the engine bay. Also opened the dash to look for the idle black box thing I read about in another threat about cutting the black and yellow wire. Well what I found in there is a nightmare of stuff cut and disconnected.
I have gotten my self into a mess on this one.
Anyone have a recommendation on a new battery? The battery that is in it looks like a car battery.

Thanks

 

[Dr Honda]

Your battery should be a Group 24 MS (marine starting) Personally... I like Die-Hard. They area good price, and some of the best quality made. I picked up a 24ms at the beginning of the season... and it was about $80 out the door. If you order it on-line from sears, you save a few $$$. BUT, the nice thing is... you can still do a store pick-up.


Yes... that's the right number. You have the early 240. but, it still has the Port side temp sender that can cause issues. It's about $30 from boats.net... and it's P/N 13536A14 (part 7 below)

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/M...84499/Cylinder Head And Reed Block/parts.html


If you look on the main page, of the Merc section... there is a sticky about "The best tune-up". You can read about it. But basically... when it goes bad... the computer thinks it starting the engine in freezing weather, and floods it.


The other thing that could be an issue is the TPS has gone bad. BUT... it's almost $500... so let's hope it's not that.

 

[Canned ham]

Quick update on this issue. So Got it running..... Bone head mistake. Battery cables ends were corroded. Should have checked that first. Anyway on the wiring issue in the dash. I have no clue what that mess is. I will have to go through it to figure out what has been done.
Also there seems to be an open on the main on/off switch. Have to wiggle on the back of the main on/off switch to get blower and bilge pump to come on.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Dr Honda]

That would do it. (lol) Loose battery connections will cause voltage fluctuations, and the ECU will do crazy stuff.


if your battery switch is bad... I have a few good used ones. You can have one for the price of the shipping. But... pull the mounting screws, and make sure it's not just loose, or a little corroded.

 

[Canned ham]

Going to pull it in a bit. It is raining now...

 

[Canned ham]

Ok so pulled the switch and it was nasty as well. Cleaned it up. Blower and bilge pump work like the should now.
But there is still a cold start problem. It had been a couple hours since I ran it on the hose for 30 to 45 minutes and it was completely cooled down. It took about 5 tries to get it to keep running. Could that be caused by the port side temp sensor?

 

[Dr Honda]

Yep. As it drifts... it get's richer, and richer at idle.


If you have the manual... there is a chart for resistance, and temp. Just use a meter and check it.

 

[Canned ham]

I have the manual. I went ahead and ordered the sensor. As it does smell rich while running and a bit of smoke. Just like the old days with dirt bikes when you add a little to much oil to the gas.

 

[Canned ham]

Update. Installed sensor. Boat fired right up. Then stalled out. Took about 10 tries to get it to stay running. Still seemed rich. Also during the my 10 starts while it was trying to idle I tried to give it throttle but it would not take it and would die quicker. It wasn't till it was warmed up a bit before it would take any throttle. Is this normal? Could it be bad gas? As this is a new used boat to me. I am not sure how long it has been sitting or even how old the gas is.

Thanks

 

[Dr Honda]

If I don't run my bilge fan for a couple minutes... my engine will start, stumble, and even die if I give it throttle. It's basically too much fumes, and not enough air in the engine bay.


But... with that said... since you found corrosion... I would check the wire ends on the high pressure fuel pump. If they are loose, or messy... you may not have enough pressure.

Then... you may want to check the output on the TPS. (throttle position sensor) They dont' last forever... and when they die... the engine ha a hard time figuring out what to do. But... let's hope it's OK. A new one is almost $500.

 

[Canned ham]

I haven't had time to check the connections on the fuel pump yet. But have a question as I was reading another forum and one person suggested replacing 3 sensors. Port side, starboard side, and air temp sensor. Well I cannot find the air temp sensor on boats.net for my engine. Also my last question is how do I test the tps sensor with out the tool the m2 manual says to use. I do have a digital multi meter.

Thanks

 

[Dr Honda]

The starboard side temp sender has nothing to do with fuel on the 240. It's basically a leftover for the carb engines, and they use it for a temp gauge if you want to add it. (the tan wire behind the helm) The PORT side will make it run BAD if it gives up.


Yes... the air temp sender can cause issues... but in my time here... I have yet to see someone say it went bad.


The manual has the method of checking the TPS with a meter also. Off the top of my head.... you disconnect the port side temp sender, and you tap into the Blue, and tan wires on the TPS. (they make a harness, but you can just put pins though the wires, to hook a meter to them) Then... you check it at idle, for about 0.20v to 0.30v. You can loosen the screws, and adjust if needed.


THEN... slowly open the throttle, and watch the voltage. It should go up smoothly to about 7v. If the signal drops, or the voltage at idle drifts around... then it's gone bad.



Oh.... forgot to say. This is with the key on.... but they engine NOT running.

 

[Canned ham]

Update. So I checked the voltage at the tps. .190 at idle. 4.00 at WOT. Seems to be working although needs adjusting. Loosed screws. Would not turn. Took screws out and tried to remove. No good. Now here is the strange part. While taking the screws out and down inside this beast. I had the flash light pointing at the tps and noticed a gap in the ecu harness I pulled it out of the holder and sure enough it was in hooked. I reconnected it and put the screws back in the tps since I don't want to break it.
So two questions. 1 how do you get out a stuck tps with out breaking it and 2 would the engine even run in so fail safe mode with the ecu disconnected? Btw after hooking up everything I fired it up and it ran like a top. I only let it run for about 15 to 20 seconds since I didn't have the hose hooked up. Also for those keeping score I checked the wet exhaust and some one had already replaced them.

 

[Dr Honda]

1) I haven't heard of the TPS getting stuck. It's plastic, and the housing is aluminum. SO... there shouldn't be any issue with corrosion holding it. All I can think of is that someone put some kind of sealer on it. If the screws are all the way out... you can try to twist it by hand.... BUT.... DO NOT use a tool to try to break it loose. If you physically break it... it's almost $500 for the replacement.


2) Yes... the engine will run. BUT, without the input of the TPS... it will run 40% rich at idle. The ECU can run the engine with just the MAP sensor hooked up... but the port side temp sender, air temp, and the TPS "Trim" the fuel in low to mod RPM ranges.


With that said... since you found the plug open, and your idle voltage is just a little out of range.... I would probably not worry about the TPS being stuck, until you need to replace it.

 

[Canned ham]

Took the boat out to the lake today. So took 5 times of starting it at the dock to get it started. I got it out and and ran it up to 5000 rpm. Rode around for about an hour and stopped to swim with my daughter. Got back in about 20 minutes later and it fired right up and we rode off. Rode for about another 20 minutes and stopped at a marina and got some snacks. Got $20 of gas as I only had about half a tank left. Fired it backup without a problem and rode for about another 45 minutes to a cove where there is little traffic and we stopped for another 30 minutes. When we started to leave the boat would not start. Took about 5 times to get it started. And when it finally started it seemed to be missing. Would not take throttle it would bog down but would recover when brought back to idle. After putting out of the cove. It finally took throttle but she was not running right. Got back to the dock and loaded it up. Pulled the plugs 2 were black. The ones that are fouled are top port side and middle one on starboard side.

So I have ordered pressure testing tools to check compression and fuel pressure.
Also noticed that the steering was a work out. As it wanted to always go left. Played with the trim tabs and that helped some. But there is a bunch of play in the steering. Is that adjustable? Or indication of a worn part.

 

[Canned ham]

Update.
Compression check appears to be good. Have between 120-122 on all 6. Fuel Pressure is 33 PSI.
Not sure what is next.

 

[Dr Honda]

Well.... 33 is actually below spec. 34-36 is your target pressure. But... we can assume (at this point) that the gauge is reading a little wrong. But... we need the pressure when it doesn't want to start.


And... as I asked before... when it didn't want to start... did you run the bilge fan for a couple minutes first?

 

[Canned ham]

To answer your question. Yes I have been running the bilge fan for a couple of minutes. On Sunday when I took it out I started the fan before I backed down into the water and had to try 5 times before it would run.

As to the PSI on fuel. I will try to start it on the hose in the next day or two with the gauge hooked up and see what is happening.
Would low pressure be an indication of the fuel filters being clogged?

 

[Dr Honda]

OK on the fan. I know I've said it on a few thread recently... but on my boat... I've noticed it to be a real issue. If I run it... my engine starts. if I don't... it will cough until it gets some fresh air.


Low press could be a clogged final filter... but it could be a bad pump, or bad regulator too.