1999 Challenger - 1 engine will not turn over

[Jims5543]

I thought it was hydro locked, so I pulled the plugs, spun the engine, cleaned up the mess that got past the towels over the holes.

It still would not turn over with the plugs in, I pulled them again, repeat, repeat, repeat, finally got it to turn over and almost fire, then it locked up again, repeat clearing it out for about 5 minutes, then got it to turn over with plugs in again, same deal, almost fired, could not get to turn over.

Giving up for the night as I was losing light.

I am going to give it a good charge and make sure I have a full battery tomorrow and try it again.

I have been told I am seeping oil into the engine, I installed an inline petcock and have a remove before flight flag over the start button to remind me to open it up. I figured all the cranking I did would be enough to clear it out.

Any suggestions?

Of course a rebuild is on my list, and I may just say screw it and do that.

 

[Coastiejoe]

If it was/is hydro-locked with oil, it simply takes time and sometimes a new set of plugs.

Generally speaking, the oil leaks past the crank seal over a longer period of time. In most cases if it is run once a month it will smoke a bit, but will not creat an issue. Once the oil clears it stops smoking. Putting a valve in-line is a common fix. I have always suggested to hang the lanyard on the valve,,,,

 

[Jims5543]

My problem is when I put the plugs back in, it will not turn over at all, just a click of the starter engaging and then nothing else.

I am hoping it is just a weak battery.

 

[Jims5543]

I trickled charged the battery overnight with a battery tender, making sure to keep the main power switch on the boat turned off.

I disconnected the trickle charger this evening and tried to fire up the right engine. It turned over for 10 seconds then I lifted off the starter button. That would be the last time it would turn over.

I tried the left engine and it fired right up and I ran it for about 30 second then shut it down.

Then I tried to start the right engine again and you could hear the starter click and load up then nothing. I pulled the plugs and now a new problem.....

I go to start it and now it clicks like a bad solenoid then I get a single beep and nothing.

I threw a volt meter and I have 12.8 volts.

So I try the left engine again, it is doing the same thing now, I get a click then a loud beep and nothing. You can hear the circuit disconnect.

The voltmeter would shoot up to 14 volts then down to 6 volts then bounce back to 12.8 volts.

So now neither engine will turn over nor will hitting the start button do anything other then set off one single loud beep.

Time to hit the shop manual...

 

[jhjesse]

I would start by pulling and cleaning all the ground wires one at a time using dielectric grease. Then take a hard look at the starter.

1 long beep = MPEM is not reading lanyard or loose connection on DESS post/ bad DESS post
1 short beep = Shifter not in neutral position.

 

[Jims5543]

Never thought to look at the shifter, I may have bumped it when pulling off the cover.

One more try tomorrow....

Thank you!! I forgot to add that in my forehead slapping moment...

 

[Chakane]

If it is only one engine that won't turn over, it won't be the shifter. If this was the problem, wouldn't it not allow either engine to turn over?

 

[MEDOO]

One of my engines hydrolocks with oil, and oddly enough its only the front cylinder, the rear one is clear... I took out a starter before I figured this out, so be careful.
My symptom was, at first attempt it would turn over for a few of seconds, then stop and lock up. Now, when it sits for a period of time and locks, I will literally soak a good sized towel with oil from the plug hole before it stops blowing oil. Then put the plug back in and it pops right off, with a nice smoke cloud. I try to clear that out before going to the boat ramp...

 

[MEDOO]

Which oil line gets the valve? I have been clamping both the small and larger line on the bottom of the tank because I wasn't sure. I would like to go ahead and put a valve in.

 

[Jims5543]

If it is only one engine that won't turn over, it won't be the shifter. If this was the problem, wouldn't it not allow either engine to turn over?

Well, it started with one engine and now neither will turn over, same deal, a loud click like the starter is engaging and then one short beep followed by the system shutting down. The only way to get life again is to remove the key and put it back on thus resetting it.


I am about to give up and take it to a shop locally. I am going to do some trouble shooting tomorrow and if no dice off it goes, check book boat mechanic, as much as I hate being a check book mechanic, I would rather not fubar this boat further.

 

[Jims5543]

Which oil line gets the valve? I have been clamping both the small and larger line on the bottom of the tank because I wasn't sure. I would like to go ahead and put a valve in.

I cut the line coming out of the bottom of the tank about 2" above the "V" where it splits off to the 2 engines. I put it there. Seems to be doing the job well. Just make sure you have a reminder so you do not forget to open it up and shut it off.

 

[Jims5543]

My 2 engine problem turned out to be a loose positive battery connection.

They now crank like they should, well, the one does, the other was full of oil again, I pump it dry, put the plugs back in, cranked it and it hydro locked while I was trying to start it.

I pulled the plugs, cleared it out again, as in, turned it over for about 5 minutes in intervals pumping out a remarkable amount of oil. Same deal, I cannot turn it over for 20 second before it locks back up.

I am throwing in the towel, I am pretty sure this motor is done, or the oil metering is screwed, both beyond the realm of my ability and or time constraints.

Thanks for the suggestions though, they were helpful.

 

[1800chall_tim]

been there done that. i was in the same boat two seasons ago, no pun intended. the port side engine in my '99 challenger had bad crank seals and was to the point where it would fill up and hydrolock after only 24 hours sitting.
i dealt with it throughout the season (killing all the misquitos at every boat ramp i went to,LOTS OF SMOKE)

after shopping around and some research i decided to bring the engine to FULLBORE in michigan for a full rebuild, in the offseason they discount the premium rebuilds and give you a two year warranty.

with a little mechanic know how and a full shop manual it was a peice of cake pulling the engine, you are in the right place talking to the right guys if you decide to tackle this project.

or do what the previous owner did with my boat and make sure you clear all the oil really good before you take the next poor soul out for a test ride then when it smokes a little tell them it is the first time out this season and the smoke is from the fogging oil in the cylinders. TALK ABOUT TICK A GUY OFF, I AM STILL MAD TO THIS DAY!! SUNK $1800 INTO THAT ENGINE BECAUSE OF THAT LITTLE PRANKSTER JERK!!

sooooo....... the question is do you rebuild it knowing the other engine has had the same life with the same oil and same wear and tear??? keep your check book out and keep searching this site, the experts on tnis forum are great and really helpful. GOOD LUCK, TIM

 

[1800chall_tim]

been there done that. i was in the same boat two seasons ago, no pun intended. the port side engine in my '99 challenger had bad crank seals and was to the point where it would fill up and hydrolock after only 24 hours sitting.
i dealt with it throughout the season (killing all the misquitos at every boat ramp i went to,LOTS OF SMOKE)

after shopping around and some research i decided to bring the engine to FULLBORE in michigan for a full rebuild, in the offseason they discount the premium rebuilds and give you a two year warranty.

with a little mechanic know how and a full shop manual it was a peice of cake pulling the engine, you are in the right place talking to the right guys if you decide to tackle this project.

or do what the previous owner did with my boat and make sure you clear all the oil really good before you take the next poor soul out for a test ride then when it smokes a little tell them it is the first time out this season and the smoke is from the fogging oil in the cylinders. TALK ABOUT TICK A GUY OFF, I AM STILL MAD TO THIS DAY!! SUNK $1800 INTO THAT ENGINE BECAUSE OF THAT LITTLE PRANKSTER JERK!!

sooooo....... the question is do you rebuild it knowing the other engine has had the same life with the same oil and same wear and tear??? keep your check book out and keep searching this site, the experts on tnis forum are great and really helpful. GOOD LUCK, TIM

 

[Jims5543]

I wish I had the time to pull the engine(s) I found a great local shop and so far so good with the owner. He knows his stuff and is busy as hell. (good sign)

He checked out my boat today and confirmed what I already knew, bad engine seals. He said while is was cheaper for me and more profit for him if he does the rebuild he is too busy and suggested a reman engine with 2 year warranty. $1500 installed, I told him to do both of them so I do not have to do this again next summer. So, $3100 and I get 2 new engines installed and a boat ready to go in about 2 weeks.


Tim - That sucks, I hate dishonest sellers. I cannot complain I paid 4K for this boat last year, got half a season out of it and with new engines hope to have a several more now.

 

[Jims5543]

2 new engines have been installed and she should be ready to pick up tomorrow. Too bad it is a holiday weekend, I will wait a week before I take it out.

Here is something curious. The owner of the shop asked me what kind of 2 stroke oil I was using, I told him I was using Sea Doo oil I purchased 3 gallons and have 1 gallon left.

He told me not to use it anymore, he is going to tell me what to use when I pick up the boat tomorrow. He said he had never seen 2 cycle oil that was like water before. Did I get a bad batch? He told me he was amazed how thin that oil was when it was running out of my full crank cases after the engine pulls.

BTW - Both engines were FULL of oil when they were pulled he said he never saw anything like that.

So I have to wonder, did my thinking I was doing good, do in my engines? They were perfect last season and I did not start to have problems until the new stuff started to run through them.

He wants to premix the gas for the break in period and said we will use the Sea Doo crap and only put what he said was a proper oil in the tank from now on.

I am amazed how fast he got this done I dropped the boat off last Monday and it only took him 9 days to do the job.

 

[Coastiejoe]

First,,, I really hope all goes well in regards to all the work and money you have invested.

Second,,, the oil issue is a HUGE topic here. I know there is a preferred oil but don't recall which it is. [MENTION=31048]LouDoo[/MENTION] can give you good advice on that.

 

[Jims5543]

I have her back in my driveway with the hopes of getting out of work early Friday to go out for an evening break in run.

Not sure what other folks break in technique is but I was told by the shop owner to run it a tad over idle speed for about an hour, then progress with the rpm's over the next 9 hours then I can have at it.

He also has me premixing the gas in addition to the oil system on the boat.

He was a great guy, gave me a tour of the shop and took the time to show me engines in various stages of being torn down showing me how the oil injection works and how the oil pump works. I did not initially understand that the oil circulates back into the holding tank.

He then poured some of my Sea Doo oil in a plastic cup and some Valvoline oil in another cup. What he did not like was how watery the Sea Doo oil was and you could see that swirling the cup. The Valvoline was much thicker and I could understand how the better viscosity would benefit the pumps.

Anyway, I have a week or so of boring sedate boating ahead of me. I am happy that I did this though, I look forward to a fun summer.

 

[racerxxx]

Not going to start the oil debate, just make sure your new oil meets the API-TC oil rating, which I don't think Valvoline makes an oil that is API-TC rated. It should also be synthetic. You should not really be using a TC-W3 oil in a Rotax engine. There are alternatives to the XPS-II oil that are API-TC rated. The XPS-II oil is formulate to flow at a very low temp ( I think -40F) for snowmobiles as this oil fits many of BRP's recreational products. Please don't judge oil by eye and check the rating.

 

[Jims5543]

Understood. Thank you for the explanation.

Maybe I am over reacting I did not have a problem with the boat until I put the See Doo oil in.

I understand what you are saying about the judging by eye, I use a high quality 2 stroke oil in my RX8 that is very well reviewed in the community (yes we premix the gas in our rotary cars, it makes them happy) and the consistency of the oil is very watery. I should have thought of that.

 

[racerxxx]

Just a for instance.... I bought my Speedster brand new in 99 and have ran XPS-II from day one, my cranks don't weep oil. Just make sure that new oil carries the correct rating since you have 2 brand new mills in there.

 

[Jims5543]

I am in the process of ordering 4 gallons of Amsoil proper specs for my engines. I have a friend that is a distributor and passes his pricing on to me. I just have to let him order it.

Gonna grab a bottle of Quicksilver tomorrow so I have something to run in her for now. The guy at the shop did tell me to get Quicksilver (at Wally World) so maybe I misunderstood him.

Glad I posted up on here. I also found break in instructions on SBT's website that were much more detailed and made good sense. So I am going to use them. The process will take 3 hours to complete.

 

[Jims5543]

Just a for instance.... I bought my Speedster brand new in 99 and have ran XPS-II from day one, my cranks don't weep oil. Just make sure that new oil carries the correct rating since you have 2 brand new mills in there.

I just thought of something. You are aware that the Sea Doo oil has changed and is now red? I swore I read on here some were blaming sudden seal failures on the new formula oil.

 

[racerxxx]

I just thought of something. You are aware that the Sea Doo oil has changed and is now red? I swore I read on here some were blaming sudden seal failures on the new formula oil.

Yep, I made a post last year about it when they switched from Castrol making it to now Redline making it for BRP. In my 96 XP I ran the old stuff and switched to the new stuff. I've never heard that it was causing seal failures.


http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?62688-New-Oil-Thread!!!!&highlight=redline

 

[Jims5543]

Thank you for the input Racerxxx.

I also went to SBT's website and did some reading last night and since these engines came from them, I am going to yield to their break in instructions as well as put the proper oil in the her.

Not sure what is going on with the shop, I hate to doubt the guy especially since he has many years experience with these crafts and tears them down all the time, he has to know more than most.