Engine exerciser

[jimmaki]

From personal experience and also based on many of the messages here, mechanical things, especially SeaDoos, evidently do not like to sit idle for long periods of time and owners often pay a high price when this happens. I have a whole house generator, a mechanical device that is very rarely used, (once a year if that) but it has to work if and when needed in a power outage. It has a built-in battery tender and is programmed to automatically start and run once a week. I have had it for five years and have never rebuilt its carbs, changed fuel lines or filters, oil filters, batteries, had a seal or bearing failure, or had a magneto, trigger coil, rectifier, stator or computer fail ... knock on wood.

It would be great if our SeaDoos were designed to start and run themselves once a week or so. I'm betting we'd have a lot less problems. Use it or lose it seems to really apply to these things. There is an lcd readout on my generator that tells me if it tried more than x number of times to start and failed due to bad battery, low fuel, low oil, etc. So it's not totally hands off maintenance, but it does 90% of the work and tells me when I have to do my 10% to keep it 100% reliable and ready to run when needed.

 

[LouDoo]

I really don't think it's necessary. I know you live in Florida, and I assume you don't winterize your ski, but most of us do winterize our ski's and they sit unused for most of the year. My two ski's both 96 models have their original engines, compression of around 150psi and I have had very few mechanical problems.

Lou

 

[jimmaki]

I really don't think it's necessary. I know you live in Florida, and I assume you don't winterize your ski, but most of us do winterize our ski's and they sit unused for most of the year. My two ski's both 96 models have their original engines, compression of around 150psi and I have had very few mechanical problems.

Lou

Yes, you're correct, I live in Florida and I don't winterize. What is winter?

When you say you don't think it's necessary because most of you winterize your skis ... I don't know for sure, but I think it's a safe bet to say that most people don't take as good care of their skis as you do.

If I can extrapolate data from the Group membership numbers here, Florida and Tampa groups outnumber all the other groups combined and I can't tell where some in the other groups like the boat groups are located, but I doubt those demographics are much different than the groups by state or location. So I don't think most of you winterize.

Regardless of weather, I just don't know when the next time will be when I will use my ski. It could be later in the same day, tomorrow or in two months or two years. So, I'd have to winterize after every ride. It ain't gonna happen.

All I'm saying is even an after market auto run system would be something I'd buy and maybe a lot of other people would too, depending on price of course. But I've spent close to a grand on my ski just to correct things that simply not using it have caused. I didn't run it without oil or roll it or abuse it other than just letting it sit for too long without running.

Maybe a bilge pump hooked to the flushing connector could start up just after the engine starts. Water cooled 4-cycles wouldn't even need that. A way to prevent the carbon seal from overheating would be fairly easy to do. Or maybe just running for 30 seconds, stop and let it rest for a while, then run for another 20 seconds would do the trick so no special cooling would be necessary. It would also be great to have a small, removeable, maybe one gallon auxiliary fuel tank that I could switch over to with the fuel selector switch after each ride that I could keep full with fuel containing stabil and oil. Before riding I would put fresh gas in the main tank and switch to it and use my small tank as the reserve.

 

[LouDoo]

You're making much more of what I'm saying, all that I meant to say is most people north of central Florida winterize their ski's and therefore they don't get run for 6-9 months out of the year. So all I meant was it wasn't necessary. If you want to go out and start your ski every couple of weeks go ahead, it won't hurt a thing, but probably won't help either. Remember these are 2-strokes and unlike 4-tecs they get fresh oil, so old oil with dirt and acids don't just sit in the crankcase. It would make more sense to fog your engine after each use.

My skis are still running fine with excellent compression after 19 years with really just normal maintenance.

Lou

 

[jimmaki]

You're making much more of what I'm saying, all that I meant to say is most people north of central Florida winterize their ski's and therefore they don't get run for 6-9 months out of the year. So all I meant was it wasn't necessary. If you want to go out and start your ski every couple of weeks go ahead, it won't hurt a thing, but probably won't help either. Remember these are 2-strokes and unlike 4-tecs they get fresh oil, so old oil with dirt and acids don't just sit in the crankcase. It would make more sense to fog your engine after each use.

My skis are still running fine with excellent compression after 19 years with really just normal maintenance.

Lou

The only anecdotal experience I have with two cycle engines and how they hold up are the 2-cycle Stihl tools in the un-airconditioned shed. Grass grows 24/7/365 down here so the John Deere mower and all the trimmers, clippers and blower/vacs get run just about every week. I've never fogged any of them and the only maintenance is an occasional air filter change and sharpening blades. Given the choice of fogging or starting an engine, starting would be my choice, and having it start itself regularly would be far and away a first choice. The problem is the to do list gets long around here so squeaky wheels get the attention. When the grass gets too long, believe me I hear squeaking. If the SeaDoo or boat sit another week unattended, ahh, pure silence.

So, something that would start them up once a week without my intervention would be nice. Probably not necessary, but because of other priorities or maybe just laziness, it would probably go a long way in making them last longer or lower maintenance costs/effort to run them once a week. Maybe this only applies to me, but I thought I'd throw out the idea of a generator like auto exercise system in case others are in the same boat, so to speak.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Mothballing a motor.... For the most part I think it's enough to oil these up using a good preservative oil, run some fuel stabilizer through the carbs and run carbs dry if storage is prolonged. Standard practice for those of us forced to winterize.

If possible and they will sit unused for years, give them a full turn periodically to redistribute the preservative oil. Cover over any unprotected inlets and outlets by stuffing a rag into the open holes so they can breath and watch moisture doesn't condense inside and cause corrosion.

Someone mentioned they use their shop vac to suck the remnants of water from the exhaust system, sounded like a great idea to me. Remove the spark plugs and suck away on the transom thru-hull down the open plug holes and through the open exhaust ports, might even spray fogging oil in cylinders while doing that?

It's pretty common here to see water condensate just rolling off the outside of an engine block up until noon following a cold winter night.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

IMO outdoor storage and sitting for long periods do certainly contribute to normal fault points popping up. But if properly stored (preferably indoors) I can only see limited value at best in a "weekly" start thing. On paper not a bad idea and an interesting discussion but in reality not really necessary.

edit: actually on 2nd thought, (and this is non gearhead input, so grain of salt please) its actually quite possible given the fact that these are oil/fuel lubricated machines, the two worst things for a perfectly tuned engines are the first 30 seconds and anything over a minute with the throttle pegged. Obviously a machine that is running lean/rich would exacerbate the problem.

So having a weekly startup at idle even for a few seconds just increases the frequency of possible micro-damaging startups by two fold, or 10 fold depending on your weather patterns.

with that said, I do firmly believe that engines are meant to run and long layoffs (12 months) are bad, with exception to a 951, IMO there isn't much difference between a 20 yr old ski with 75 hours vs 150, and its possible that the 150 hour machine mechanically might be more sound since in order to stay under 100 for that long it probably sat for a 2-3 year stretch.

 

[Apeman]

"What is winter?"
Why I oughta....
Up here in Wisconsin, Winter is hell. On everything. Cars, Boats, Motors, Homes, Plants, your joints, etc.
-az-

 

[jimmaki]

"What is winter?"
Why I oughta....
Up here in Wisconsin, Winter is hell. On everything. Cars, Boats, Motors, Homes, Plants, your joints, etc.
-az-

Many moons ago I went to grad school in East Lansing, MI. The day I graduated I headed south and never looked back. When I lived up there I remember impatiently waiting until late May to water ski on the lake north of campus and having to be careful not to hit any pieces of floating ice.

 

[bajaman123]

There is definitely something to what jimmaki is saying, mechanically speaking. I too have a generator that MUST work when it needs to, though it is not a sophisticated 'whole-house' system. So I just make it a point of starting it up once a month or so.

I've got a friend who has a car dealership, and he often talks about "lot rot"; a phenomena that happens with used cars if they sit on the lot for a long time. Usually involves seals that were once perfectly fine that develop leaks as the car sits. I knew he tries to cycle any used car off his lot within 3 weeks and will take them to auction if he's had them more than a couple of months.

Practically though, for a lot of folk it is not possible nor even safe to have a system that would fire the engine up every now and then.

 

[Bills86e]

You should put a ball valve in the RV oil line to shut down the gravitational oil pressure on the crank seals when you store the ski more than a week.
You should spray Storage oil into the engine after every use of the ski, as preventive maintenance of STEAM from the hot engine will find a way into the crank journals-cylinder walls, piston wrist pins, if this is NOT DONE at rinse-out time. This is THE most important thing to preserve your ski's engine!
TRain yourself to empty and examine the water separator/filter, remove the seat, turn on the oil ball valve, smell, look for any gas leakage/fumes ALWAYS before you launch/ride.
Charge/check the battery voltage and recharge anytime it falls under 12.4V. I have batteries older than 3 years, still in good health! Replace the oil cavity filter every two years.
Use non-ethanol recreational gas only. This will prolong the small internal rubber parts of your machine. Replace your two RV oil lines every two years, these get brittle and fail.


Bills86e

 

[jimmaki]

IMO outdoor storage and sitting for long periods do certainly contribute to normal fault points popping up. But if properly stored (preferably indoors) I can only see limited value at best in a "weekly" start thing. On paper not a bad idea and an interesting discussion but in reality not really necessary.

edit: actually on 2nd thought, (and this is non gearhead input, so grain of salt please) its actually quite possible given the fact that these are oil/fuel lubricated machines, the two worst things for a perfectly tuned engines are the first 30 seconds and anything over a minute with the throttle pegged. Obviously a machine that is running lean/rich would exacerbate the problem.

So having a weekly startup at idle even for a few seconds just increases the frequency of possible micro-damaging startups by two fold, or 10 fold depending on your weather patterns.

with that said, I do firmly believe that engines are meant to run and long layoffs (12 months) are bad, with exception to a 951, IMO there isn't much difference between a 20 yr old ski with 75 hours vs 150, and its possible that the 150 hour machine mechanically might be more sound since in order to stay under 100 for that long it probably sat for a 2-3 year stretch.

I live on a lake so the water toys are stored on lifts over the water outdoors. Triple whammy. Heat of the day, cool of night, hanging just feet over millions of gallons of humidity generating water.

Good point on the first 30 seconds of damage but isn't that a 4-cycle concern where the oil has to be pumped up from the sump to the top end? My thought was to just run it at idle not WOT and for just a few seconds. Usually a lean idle engine won't idle if it even starts.

The micro damage that I'm hoping to avoid is the light dusting of iron oxide, a good abrasive, that forms on metal parts after they have been sitting out in the elements for a while. I realize fogging, storing indoors, and moving to the desert all help avoid this problem, but I am looking for alternatives since in 22 years of SeaDoo ownership, I haven't done any of them... well, I did do the fogging, flushing, washing, polishing and waxing the first couple years. Familiarity breeds contempt.

 

[jimmaki]

You should put a ball valve in the RV oil line to shut down the gravitational oil pressure on the crank seals when you store the ski more than a week.
You should spray Storage oil into the engine after every use of the ski, as preventive maintenance of STEAM from the hot engine will find a way into the crank journals-cylinder walls, piston wrist pins, if this is NOT DONE at rinse-out time. This is THE most important thing to preserve your ski's engine!
TRain yourself to empty and examine the water separator/filter, remove the seat, turn on the oil ball valve, smell, look for any gas leakage/fumes ALWAYS before you launch/ride.
Charge/check the battery voltage and recharge anytime it falls under 12.4V. I have batteries older than 3 years, still in good health!
Bills86e

Probably a good idea, but I'm afraid I'd forget to turn the valve back on, plus I never know if it will be a week or a day before the next ride. Some of the problems I'm seeing in the current teardown are that the MAG rv seal was leaking, but no enough to hydrolock the engine, but enough to sling oil up to the piston and gum up the lower ring and create carbon build and scoring problems on the skirt. I think the oil was coming from the bottom not blowby as the top ring is good and free and both cylinders read 160PSI.

You bring up an excellent point about checking for fuel leaks Something an autoexerciser would probably not be able to do as well as a human with good nostrils, if at all. Athough, how many SeaDoos have we heard about exploding due to gas leaks? Maybe the owners aren't around any more to tell about it.

 

[jimmaki]

Mothballing a motor.... For the most part I think it's enough to oil these up using a good preservative oil, run some fuel stabilizer through the carbs and run carbs dry if storage is prolonged. Standard practice for those of us forced to winterize.

If possible and they will sit unused for years, give them a full turn periodically to redistribute the preservative oil. Cover over any unprotected inlets and outlets by stuffing a rag into the open holes so they can breath and watch moisture doesn't condense inside and cause corrosion.

Someone mentioned they use their shop vac to suck the remnants of water from the exhaust system, sounded like a great idea to me. Remove the spark plugs and suck away on the transom thru-hull down the open plug holes and through the open exhaust ports, might even spray fogging oil in cylinders while doing that?

It's pretty common here to see water condensate just rolling off the outside of an engine block up until noon following a cold winter night.

Those are all great ideas and things to do to help prolong the life of these moisture hating devils, but I just don' see myself dragging the shop vac down to the dock and doing all that orifice sucking, pardon my French.

Condensation inside the hull doesn't seem too noticeable. From what I've seen of the inside of the engine so far, and I've only torn it down to removing the jugs, no obviously visible rust so far. The PTO side is squeaky clean. The MAG side is so gummed up with carbon and oil from a leaking rv seal, that it's hard to see much. Once I get the bottom end opened, I'll know more about bearing rust damage, pitting, etc.

I'm actually surprised to see so little water/moisture damage in the engine. Now damage in the carbs and VTS are another matter. But periodically starting the engine wouldn't have helped either of those situations. Unprotected metal and water just don't get along so the whole concept of a wet boat with metal parts is almost an anachronism. Anyway, I'm starting to get into the specifics of designing an auto exercise system and some of the design issues are considerable, nevermind what real or imagined benefit such a system would have and if they would solve the maintenance time and costs I'm experiencing getting this thing back up and running. The design issues that I'm aware of so far are:

1. How to start a DESS system without mucking with the MPEM or bypassing it, if even possible. Leaving the key on wouldn't help because of the auto off timer.

2. How to tell if the engine actually started, and if not, how many times to keep trying and at what number of tries does the starter motor overheat and the battery get too low to sustain spark?

3. How to tell if the oil pump is working along with the injection fittings and tubing.

4. How to tell if there is a fuel leak prior to cranking?

5. How to tell if there's a water or oil hydrolock prior to cranking?

6. Overheat detection.

7. How to keep a running unattended SeaDoo from being stolen or taken for a joy ride by strangers.

So this is going to take some array of sensor input relying on the MPEM or in addition to it. And it's also going to take some software development.

Generac amortized it's development costs over thousands of generators ... a one off is going to probably end up costing me more than the hunk o' junk whose life it's trying to prolong or what I'm spending fixing the damage inactivity may have caused.

Since I haven't fogged my 787 in many years and it looks fairly clean inside save the very dirty, oily MAG side from the rv seal failure. I know there's at least one failed bearing in there, but I'm not sure what caused it to fail. I'll wait until I get the bottom apart before taking a guess. Two big 4th of July BBQ/fireworks parties on the lake this weekend so I won't know more until next week when I pull the bottom end out and crack it open.

Thanks everyone for your inputs. I'm hearing ya! Between probably not needing it and definitely not justifying it's cost and effort to develop, I'm realizing this idea has no legs. At least I don't plan on taking it into the Shark Tank.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

One final thought if you start your carbureted 2-stroke on a regular basis without taking it out for riding then I think it would be a good idea to run some pre-mix in the fuel tank, for lubrication.

The reason is b/c at low throttle positions (as in running on a trailer/lift, idling through no wake zone) there is little to zero oil being injected by the oil injector pump. I think it's possible starting and restarting periodically might leave the crankcase dry of oil thus oil in the fuel will help to void washing the oil from the crankcase?

Something to consider, perhaps.

 

[jimmaki]

One final thought if you start your carbureted 2-stroke on a regular basis without taking it out for riding then I think it would be a good idea to run some pre-mix in the fuel tank, for lubrication.

The reason is b/c at low throttle positions (as in running on a trailer/lift, idling through no wake zone) there is little to zero oil being injected by the oil injector pump. I think it's possible starting and restarting periodically might leave the crankcase dry of oil thus oil in the fuel will help to void washing the oil from the crankcase?

Something to consider, perhaps.

I agree it would be a good idea to have some extra oil for dry starts at idle. Although generally when I start up when the engine is cold, I leave it at idle speed until it warms up for a minute or more and keep an eye out for smoke out the exhaust and the tell tale cooling stream and generally see both so I know it's getting oil and cooling.

This might be outdating thinking but doesn't using premix in a ski that's not being used for a while promote the formation of varnish in the carbs and elsewhere from the oil in the fuel after the volatile elements evaporate? Maybe a small aux tank could be used off the fuel selector switch for the premix without putting oil in the main tank. Although, the return line would have to be moved as well.

Maybe devising a way to advance the oil pump rate so it's pumping more than normal at idle. Possibly as simple as opening the throttle and putting a hemostat on the oil pump cable so it can't close back down when the throttle is released? Probably would want to use minimal clamping pressure or protect the cable so it didn't fray.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Synthetic XPS2 isn't a great storage oil IMO, b/c synthetic ester oils are typically quite hygroscopic.

 

[jimmaki]

Synthetic XPS2 isn't a great storage oil IMO, b/c synthetic ester oils are typically quite hygroscopic.

Seriously? I didn't know that. And here we're bad mouthing E10 while putting XPS2 in our engines and in some cases fuel (premix). Does that apply to just the synthetic or are the blends and mineral oils non or less hygroscopic?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Ever tried pumping the moisture off a refrigeration system that's been open to atmosphere for an appreciable period of time? The system loaded with mineral oil will reach ultimate vacuum pressure faster than one using an ester synthetic lubricant, assuming you can reach the same ultimate pressure. It's more difficult to pump the water off I think, maybe easier to flush and replace the lubricant.

You should use whatever storage oil your due diligence indicates fills the bill, E10 probably isn't the best choice either, IMO.

Just sharing what's worked for me for decades, and the reasons why (as so few do).

 

[jimmaki]

You should use whatever storage oil your due diligence indicates fills the bill, E10 probably isn't the best choice either, IMO.

Just sharing what's worked for me for decades, and the reasons why (as so few do).

E10, a fuel mixture of 10% anhydrous ethanol and 90% gasoline sometimes called gasohol. I wouldn't use it as a storage oil and I barely tolerate using it as fuel. I was just commenting that while we bad mouth E10 as a water sucker, some people add XPS2 to it to help speed along the process. I'm hoping the XPS mineral oil isn't hygroscopic.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

E10, a fuel mixture of 10% anhydrous ethanol and 90% gasoline sometimes called gasohol. I wouldn't use it as a storage oil and I barely tolerate using it as fuel. I was just commenting that while we bad mouth E10 as a water sucker, some people add XPS2 to it to help speed along the process. I'm hoping the XPS mineral oil isn't hygroscopic.

It's probably not accurate to expect premixing XPS2 enhances or accelerates the speed at which gasohol absorbs water and disassociates, decays or is degraded. Any oil at all is better than no oil when it comes to lubrication and any oil shines brightest when it's used for the purpose it was intended.

Life is a series of compromises, right? I don't think XPS2 was ever intended to be used as a storage preservative oil. I'll add, I don't know of any 2-stroke oil I'd rely on to serve this purpose for long periods under harsh conditions but if push came to shove and based on the premise any oil is better than none, my first choice would be a mineral type.

I think it's not much of a secret there are many flavors and grades of synthetic lubricants, the HVAC guys have learned well, that HFC system moisture contamination is considerably more critical than used to be when mineral oils and CFC's were the prevalent chemistry.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

In this 2-stroke Rotax ultralight aircraft manual page 5, they specify a hydrocarbon based preservation oil in case of extended storage periods.

http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/portaldata/5/dokus/d02986.pdf

 

[jimmaki]

In this 2-stroke Rotax ultralight aircraft manual page 5, they specify a hydrocarbon based preservation oil in case of extended storage periods.

http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/portaldata/5/dokus/d02986.pdf

Interesting, how did you run across that manual from 1998? You have an ultralight with a Rotax engine? We mostly blocked off airplane orifices to keep solid junk and critters out of the engine intakes, not so much for corrosion protection. I'd like to say I never got started down the runway only to notice airspeed wasn't building up for takeoff because the pitot cover was still on. Yeah, REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT! I probably wouldn't block off the exhaust outlet on a SeaDoo unless I knew for sure all the water was out of the pipe and muffler... only be trapping the water IN. I do rev up the engine a few times once it's on the lift to try to get as much water out of the exhaust system as possible. However, I think much of the damaging water/corrosive acid gets into the engine via the fuel.

Ethanol fuels have given rise to a multimillion dollar fuel additive and preservation oil industry, not to mention rebuild kits and replacement parts. If XPS2 synthetic is indeed hygroscopic, it would be helpful if it contained anticorrosive and dehydration additives, but then at $50/gal that might be too much to expect.

Some outboards come with Schrader like valves owners can connect a fogging oil can to which makes it easier to get the can contents into the engine. Even so, the cowl on my outboard must weigh about 40 pounds and has to be manuevered to get off and on while leaning over the transom. The SeaDoo seat is a lot lighter but it sure would be great if they would come up with a hydrocarbon based preservative oil that could be added to the fuel or injected with a pump during shutdown. Or ... hmmm ... maybe a poor man's version for me would be a piece of 3/32 oil tubing from the dash to the fogging grommet on the air box. heheh.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

We've done a fair bit of flying when we can, our number of landings remains equal to the number of takeoffs.

 

[jimmaki]

We've done a fair bit of flying when we can, our number of landings remains equal to the number of takeoffs.

Always a good thing. My neighbor thought he could pick up a few mph by raising the trailing edge on his Bucaneer. It did go about 2.5 mph faster at cruise, but it stalled out 10mph sooner on approach and he dropped a wing and cartwheeled it into the lake. Luckily aside from some bruises, only his pride was injured.

Hair brained idea alert! .... I am thinking of putting preservative oil in a small container and hooking the reserve line from the fuel selector to it. Last ride of the day switch the fuel selector to the small tank and wait for the smoke and the engine to die. Or the switch can be alternated back and forth between oil and the gas. After hibernation for however long, this also gives the engine a good dose of the stuff before gas clears the lines and reaches it and it starts ... maybe at a slight cost of the starter motor's lifespan (someone mentioned about 6 seconds). Not sure if preservative oil sitting in the lines and carbs hurts anything, but if it sits in the engine for extended periods on similar materials and seals, it would seem like a safe bet. No? The other issue I can think of might be more frequent fouling of the plugs.