No restart when hot

[honu]

Greetings all!!! I purchased a 2001 Challenger 1800 with the 240 on Easter Sunday this year. We put it in the water and it ran fine. Trailered it back 4 hours home and put it in storage until the Friday before Mother's Day. Put it in the lake here locally and all was good. Two days later< Mother's Day, we put the boat it and ran fine so we went to the far side of the lake for lunch(45 min ride). Shut it down for lunch and when we got done tried to restart with no luck. Followed the starting procedures. The starter would spin and it would try and fire but it just wouldn't kick over. Had a friend drive me back to my truck so I could get to a closer ramp to pull it out. The boat sat for about 1:30 when I finally got back to get towed to the closest ramp. While in tow I tried to start it and it did start but it only would go 10mph at WOT and was smoking awful. Got it out and took it to the only place that would touch it, Bass Pro. They scanned it and advised the CDM module assembly was shot and thus why it was running rough and on 3 cylinders. Two weeks later, Memorial Day, we tried to go out again but couldn't even get it started at the ramp. Pulled it back out and we by a friends shop the next day. He hooked it up to a hose and it fired right up. Did it 4 times in a row. He asked me to show him what steps I do to start it, it started. Today - Get to the ramp and she fires up first try. So we head out with our baby for a fun day on the lake. Go about an hour over to the same place to eat, stop, eat and get ready to leave and......no start. It would spin and almost catch up no go. Paddled it over to the boat shop and they hooked up a charger to see if it was a battery issue, no start. I get permission to use their private ramp to pull it out so I called a friend to come pick me up and drive me to get my truck. Come back around, total down time 2 hours, still nothing so I paddle it to the trailer and we head home. We have about a 45 min drive and once we get home I just wanted to see so I tried to start it and it fired first try, didn't even run the blower. Cut it off and it started 3 more times. In my brain it is either a charging issue or the temp sensor. Also want to add, that both times when we stopped I left the battery switch on as I thought there shouldn't be any pull on it so it wouldn't matter. With that being said would the few hours down allow for the deep cycle to come back up enough to start it? I do not currently have a volt meter to test the current voltage but can get one tomorrow. So electrical or temp sensor giving a faulty reading or a Yeti gets on board when we go eat?
Thanks


Outside temps are in the low to mid 90's here currently.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Sounds like to me you need to avoid holidays,,,,

OK, I do not know the layout of the Seadoo boats as far as what modules, PCMs, MPEMs, ect ect are where.

That said, it is VERY common for a module or electronic component to fail due to physical heat or load heat (meaning due to use).
It sounds to me that a module or component is getting hot and failing.

How they fail is, they get hot and expand and either open a circuit fully and partially. Fully opened and it normally stop functioning, partially and it functions but at a reduce performance. And in most cases, due to the electrical load on the item it will not open or partially fail until you kill the electric current (aka turn it off). Once the flow is stopped, it opens and will not work until it cools and allows the circuit to touch and work again.
[MENTION=16022]Dr Honda[/MENTION] is the Merc man and he may have knowledge of a specific item that is a common failure on the Merc boats.

One thing you can do is to pour water over the various electrical items for a few minutes. If it starts right back up you found the issue.

 

[quick_8]

I am sure Dr Honda can answer this for you......i would like to know this fix also!

 

[Dr Honda]

OK... before we start.... I need to know exactly what engine you have. From your description, it should be the first gen 240 EFI. But, to be sure... is the top cover on the engine round, and only covering the flywheel? OR, is it more rectangle, and coving most of the top of the engine?



But, to start.... are you running the bilge blower? My boat won't restart if I don't get fresh air down into the engine compartment.

 

[honu]

Yes, the top cover is round. Yes, I am using the bilge blower prior to starting at both the launch and restart. We even opened the cover and removed the trays while running the blower in hopes that would help as well.

 

[mjttheiss]

I've had similiar issues with my 2006 Challenger 180. I only have about 50 hours on it. On a few occassoins I have gone to start it and it would turn over but not start. It is stored covered in my hoist. I've pulled it and took it to the shop and it started right up for them. Ran fine for a while and then had the same issue a 6 months later. A year ago had it in the shop and they promised me a new battery would solve the problem. Ran great last summer, no problems. Picked it up from storage Saturday and it started on the first try but ran rough. Was hesitating when I gave it throttle. Thought maybe was from six month old gas in the system. Added 10 gallons of fresh high octane non ethanol gas (haven't used ethanol laced gas for over a year). Went to start it a short time later and it would not start. Not sure if it is an electrical issue or a fuel issue (fuel filter). Had spark plugs replaced about 10 hours ago.

 

[Dr Honda]

Since the guys at bass pro said that the ignition unit was bad... did you replace it? Or did you check into the stator?

 

[honu]

They replaced the ignition unit. Requested they check the stator and fuel lines for a possible leak thus causing a defueling issue. I think it's an electrical issue, it's like owing a Land Rover with their electrical gremlins.


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[TisBit]

I am having almost the exact same issue with my 2001 Islandia and it appears to have the same engine. We purchased the boat last year and it generally cold cranked on the first try and didn't have problems. The first few trips we never noticed any problem, stopping and starting, etc. But we then started having issues with hot/warm starts. Many of the times, if we sat for a period longer (could be 15 minutes could be an hour or more) it would restart.

Last week we also started having problems with cold starts as well. After being towed in several times, I have replaced the battery with an AGM battery, replaced the port side temperature sensor and ran it with some sea foam through the system to hopefully clean anything out. This weekend we got it to start, took out and ran it, coming back to the dock to shut it down. Friday and Saturday we had no problems starting with 15 minute break and an hour break. So we figured it was good. Yesterday after refueling (without sea foam), we took it out, cold started fine and ran for about 20-30 minutes. Stopped to let the kids ski and the boat would not crank hot. We sat for about 15 minutes and still nothing. Opened the engine cover, turned off the batteries and after about 30 minutes tried again and started the first try. We rode around for the day and came back to dock to shut it down. Waited a few minutes and it didn't seem to want to fire.

It also appears that we are getting more smoke on starts and very low speed. I had purchased some TCW3 oil from West Marine last year, so I am switching back to Mercury Oil to check to see if that reduces our smoke. I was really hoping the port side engine temperature was the issue, but it doesn't appear to be. So I also ordered the starboard sensor to switch that out and see if it helps. We don't get any alarms on the boat, but I have also wondered if it is overheating and our alarms are not working? We don't seem to have any issues with speed/rpm's...it runs low 40's at about 5800-6k rpms WOT.

 

[TisBit]

Have you found anything on your boat? I have replaced the spark plugs (which were fouled), Changed the oil to mercury oil and both port/starboard sensors. It has corrected the cold starts, which are consistent and it seems we are ok if we sit for a few outs. The other day we went out for the kids to try to ski, we shut down and restarted twice no issues, then we couldn't start the third time. Took about an hour or so and the boat started, but smoked a LOT. Yesterday, we went out and it smoked much less than when we brought it in on Friday. I am wondering if it could be the Throttle Position Sensor, but they are super expensive and i don't want to take a shot in the dark on that. I took it off today to check to see if anything was obviously bad on it, wires don't show wear on them or have any cracks/breaks....not sure how to check the sensor properly though.

 

[honu]

According to the shop it is in fact the throttle position sensor. It was reading faulty, making the engine think it was at 4k rmp while I was trying to start it thus it flooded. After and hour or so all the fuel would evaporate or go somewhere and allow for a restart. Part has on back order for two weeks and came in this last Wednesday, should be installed Monday and I hope to be on the lake next Saturday.


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[Jscott123]

Had same issue on a Utopia 180 with the 240EFI. Problem was a bad coil. Started when cold but when hot and everything expanded (i.e. thermal expansion) there wasn't enough energy for the spark to jump the gap and cause ignition.

 

[TisBit]

Well, I replaced the throttle position sensor yesterday and all seems good now. Very little smoke, it corrected a low idle and the boat now starts cold/warm/hot all with zero effort. It also increased my top speed a bit and sounds so much better. Glad I found the problem, it was becoming quite frustrating!

 

[honu]

Took the boat out Friday, rode for about an hour and came back to the dock. Restarted fine, backed the trailer down and tried again, yep it worked. Loaded up the wife and baby today and it did great until......after about an hour and a half we were going to a local hangout and while ideling in it cut off. Tried to restart right then but no go. Turned on the blower and tried again, nothing. It spins over but won't "catch". We decided to play in the water and try again after a bit. Waited about an hour with the same result, nada. Luckily I got Tow Boat US for Fathers Day as a joke but it was great today. The last time I took it in I waited 6 weeks to get it back, if I do that again the summer is over. Suggestions? I'm almost temped to offer to cover Dr Honda's expenses to come check it out.


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[TisBit]

So I am not Dr Honda at all! But have you tried replacing the port side temperature sensor...its about 40 bucks and you can easily do it yourself. It seems to do a lot of the same things as the TPS in regulating oil/gas flow based on the engine temperature.

Honestly, after testing it I have been on vacation and haven't been back on the boat, so I am hoping my TPS was the final issue and everything would be good. But as I mentioned I have replaced both port/starboard temp sensors and spark plugs as they got fouled after all the issues I have had. Hopefully it was a combination problem of the TPS and the Temp Sensor for you and this will fix it.

 

[honu]

My knowledge of the internal combustion engine is very limited. I have also pondered the idea that maybe a fuel injector could be bad or going bad causing excess fuel to leak into the chamber this causing a flood type situation. Possible?

 

[Dr Honda]

It's a good idea... but the port side temp sender won't make it die like that. It will just run rich.

Yes... you could have a bad injector. Have you checked the spark plugs, to see if they are fouled?

 

[TisBit]

I was out with mine today, we did skiiing/tubing for a couple of hours. Started with zero effort about 20 times (once it didn't go right away and took cranking it for about 20-30 seconds).

And as for dying when you were idling in, I have never had the engine just stop while it was running....it was always just a starting issue.

 

[henryb]

I must jump in here and say you are not the only one that has starting issues with a warm engine... these engines (Merc M2) are buggers to start when warm! I just had a tune up, carbs cleaned, new gas, new oil, new plugs, new filter and still it's hard to start when warm? I'm thinking that the restriction on the throttle when in Neutral is a big draw back. This engine needs to have a manual choke and full control of the throttle when starting. I have to use the Steering Throttle mechanism to get this engine to start when warm! It works , but it takes some doing, numerous tries.

I remember reading somewhere that there is a procedure for wiring up the ignition key push button to the gas enrichment valve. Has anyone tried this recently? Does it work? And has anyone disabled the throttle lock out when in Neutral?

Thanks,
Brent.

 

[honu]

Just got a call saying it is "fixed" at least for the moment. Shop said the diaphragm in the fuel pump was toast thus allowing excess fuel to dump in and flood out. We shall see if I get stuck on the water again this weekend or not.