X20 possible gas issues PLEASE HELP

[Mstone9942]

Hey guys it's been a while. I winterized my boat etc. Memorial Day came and I cleaned it up took it out only to have it start right up and back up then when I took off it went about 50 yards good then when I idled it down some it quit. When I started it back up it went about 20 yards then died again. I kept starting it and it would go a little and quit until it got to the point where it would just turn over when cranking but wouldn't start.

It seems like a gas issue to me but I could be wrong. That or possible needs new spark plugs? My father n law said he figured I needed a new fuel filter installed. Any feedback on what to look for would be great

 

[Dr Honda]

It's could be a bunch of things. What have you checked?

But yes... the gas could be bad/separated... The filter(s) could be plugged... or the plugs could be fouled.

 

[Mstone9942]

It's could be a bunch of things. What have you checked?

But yes... the gas could be bad/separated... The filter(s) could be plugged... or the plugs could be fouled.

Nothing yet. I wasn't sure where to start but it ran perfect all last summer so I wouldn't think it could be much. I just assumed something in the gas or spark plugs needed to be replaced. I guess I should start with plugs first then possible run some gas treatment through it or replace the fuel filter? Thanks for the feedback Honda. Much appreciated

 

[Dr Honda]

Adding fuel treatment to sour fuel doesn't do anything. You needed to put it in when you winterized it.


If you suspect fuel, then either drain it, or fill the tank. (if it's very low)

When fuel is suspect... you always change the filters. The big, "Spin-on" filter will pull out water, and it could be full/plugged up.

When a 2-stroke doesn't run, and it's the first time out for the season... I would start with fresh spark plugs. The Merc engines don't normally have issues... but I've had a few 2-strokes in the past, that would give almost no warning, and stop running because the plugs were bad. Heck... I had an old stand up jet ski, and I would have to put new plugs in it, every time I took it out. They weren't fouled... but the engine ran hot, and would cook the plug internally.


As a final FYI... please put what engine you have in your signature line. It's very hard to give advice when I'm not sure what engine you have. There were 5 Merc engines used in the seadoo boats, and every time I thought I knew where they were used... I would get an odd ball. So, now I don't even try to guess.

 

[biffdotorg]

Craziest thing, I had my first no-start with our 240efi yesterday. This was after running it well for the past few weeks.

We were surfing and running fairly slow speeds, and wouldn't you know it would not start after someone dropped. I had not turned on the fan. I ran it for around a minute, and it fired up and ran just fine.

I have noted that running across the lake, it's not usually an issue, but at slow speeds and always before starting, the fan should be running. They do like fresh air. My heart sank when I had a full boat and it just cranked and sputtered. Then noticing the fan was off, I felt a bit better. QUICK FIX for me anyway!

Good luck,

 

[Mstone9942]

Adding fuel treatment to sour fuel doesn't do anything. You needed to put it in when you winterized it.


If you suspect fuel, then either drain it, or fill the tank. (if it's very low)

When fuel is suspect... you always change the filters. The big, "Spin-on" filter will pull out water, and it could be full/plugged up.

When a 2-stroke doesn't run, and it's the first time out for the season... I would start with fresh spark plugs. The Merc engines don't normally have issues... but I've had a few 2-strokes in the past, that would give almost no warning, and stop running because the plugs were bad. Heck... I had an old stand up jet ski, and I would have to put new plugs in it, every time I took it out. They weren't fouled... but the engine ran hot, and would cook the plug internally.


As a final FYI... please put what engine you have in your signature line. It's very hard to give advice when I'm not sure what engine you have. There were 5 Merc engines used in the seadoo boats, and every time I thought I knew where they were used... I would get an odd ball. So, now I don't even try to guess.

Ok well I took it to a guy and didn't receive much good news. We checked:
-the water separator filter was dirty but wasn't clogged and wasn't the problem
-checked gas but no water present
- ran compression test and everything checked out
- changed spark plugs and they were all firing (before and after)

This is where we started to discover issues
-when the battery switch is turned on it automatically starts dispersing gas to the High Pressure Fuel Pump but the fuel pump doesn't pump because there is no pressure. He unscrewed a plug or screw on bottom of canister of the High Pressured FP and very little gas came out. He pushed the needle on the HP fuel pump and said gas should have shot up but it just dribbled out. His initial reaction was I needed a fuel pump but then he started testing it and a few other things to see what all exactly was getting power. Everything was getting power. The HP fuel pump still getting power stumped him. He even disconnected it and separated boat (key switch,harness) to engine to see if it was in the engine or if it was something in the key switch up in the boat. The fuel pump was still getting power which gave him the impression it was running non stop last summer when I used it and burned the HP fuel pump up. He also wondered about the ECU because he stated it usually controls all the power to the engine and works almost like the brain. Said it could potentially be bad but wasn't sure.

As I left he said first thing was we had to figure out why it's getting continuos power. Somebody previously had to hook something up wrong or there is a short somewhere if not. He also noted it could even possible be the relay that feeds fuel to the High Pressure Pump. He didn't have a electronic reader like a lot of big boat places has so the electric part was what he seemed most unsure about.

I have no idea what to do next. I'm hoping what all I just said makes sense and maybe you guys can give me a few pointers. I have a feeling this is going to cost a few thousand or more to fix. Sucks because if I had known I could have fixed it before any issue came about it. I just had no idea since it ran great all last summer. Feedback is def appreciated. Thanks again

 

[Dr Honda]

Biff: My boat is the same way. If I drop anchor, and let the kids swim.... if I don't get that fan on for a couple minutes, it will start... sputter... and die. At first I thought there was an issue... but after a few years... I just realized that's the way it is.

MStone: The high pressure pump will run whenever the key is on. But the "Lift Pump" will only come on while cranking the engine. SO... if the tech drained the tank on the high pressure system... then more fuel WILL NOT come back into the tank, unless it's cranking. Once running... the lift pump shuts off, and the pulse pump is the only thing feeding the system. (it's a mechanical pump)

Finally.... if the high pressure pump was bad... the engine wouldn't start at all. You need good pressure to feed the engine, and if the pump was bad... it wouldn't start. (I think you are safe there)


If there is ANY question about the ECU... then you really need a hand data terminal to check it, and run the tests. If where you took it is a real shop... then they should have a tool. Yes, the Merc tool is crazy expensive... but Rinda makes one that is around $400.


OK... if this was my boat...

1) I would verify that you can suck fuel up the feed hose, that is connected to the bottom of the lift pump.
2) Then, I would check the function of the lift pump. (only comes on while cranking) There is also a relay and fuse mounted next to it that need checked)
3) Replace the small metal filter on the bottom of the fuel pump (it plugs easy) and replace the main screw-on filter.


I think if you do that... you will be OK.



Did the tech tell you what your compression was?

 

[Mstone9942]

He is used to working on outboard motors only but was going to try and help me out. He said the Mercury V6 should run like the other Merc power heads.

He said the compression checked out fine and the spark plugs were getting fire. The boat actually started up initially for a second then quit. After that it would just crank but would not start up.

He said -The problem he thought was that the High Pressure pump is getting power even when the key is OFF. Said it was a potential fire hazard. He disconnected the entire key switch completely from the engine to seperate the engine from everything else in the boat but yet the High Pressure Pump was still getting power to it as long as the battery was turned on. While cranking he said he couldnt feel the HPP kicking on or trying to pump. Again he stated the pump (Lift pump I assume) that feeds the High Pressure pump both are getting power even when the key switch is disconnected.

Also is it normal that when the battery switch is turned on there is a noise for about 30 seconds every time you turn the switch to ON (Battery 1 or Battery 2 or BOTH) and "the lift pump" disperses or shoots gas up through the tube thats connected to the High Pressure Pump.

There is a RELAY switch that hangs down beside the hose that runs up to the HPP. It hangs beside a small black looking box (Im thinking

I called one Sea doo place over here and they stated they didnt even work on the Merc engines any longer. I really appreciate you replying back. I need all the help I can get. Let me know if there is anything else I can him. I'm still hoping its not as complicated as he thinks.

 

[Brian in Honolulu]

I would like to offer my experience with this type of issue. I work on a 2002 X-20 for someone and have fought fuel issues for months. So I had to read and learn.
So here is what I will tell you.
There are 2 fuel pumps. One to move fuel from tank through filters to High pressure pump.
And then the high pressure pump that supply's fuel rail.
What I did not know for the longest time was there is a needle and seat in vapor canister which houses high pressure pump.
Its is just like a carburetor. Fills up and float shuts off fuel pressurizing line for first pump.
Here is what happens: Needle is aluminum and is plated. when plating wears on edges of needle it oxidizes. It expands..... I have found it usually sticks when closed , therefore shutting off fuel to high pressure pump starving engine for fuel.
Yes, it took me a while to go through fuel system to totally understand it. But the fix was a $28. needle kit. You will also need the odd shaped o-ring to seal vapor canister also. Now I don't seem to starve for fuel. Hope it helps.

 

[Mstone9942]

I would like to offer my experience with this type of issue. I work on a 2002 X-20 for someone and have fought fuel issues for months. So I had to read and learn.
So here is what I will tell you.
There are 2 fuel pumps. One to move fuel from tank through filters to High pressure pump.
And then the high pressure pump that supply's fuel rail.
What I did not know for the longest time was there is a needle and seat in vapor canister which houses high pressure pump.
Its is just like a carburetor. Fills up and float shuts off fuel pressurizing line for first pump.
Here is what happens: Needle is aluminum and is plated. when plating wears on edges of needle it oxidizes. It expands..... I have found it usually sticks when closed , therefore shutting off fuel to high pressure pump starving engine for fuel.
Yes, it took me a while to go through fuel system to totally understand it. But the fix was a $28. needle kit. You will also need the odd shaped o-ring to seal vapor canister also. Now I don't seem to starve for fuel. Hope it helps.

Hey Brian thanks for the input. What you said makes total sense. In fact he mentioned that exact thing and said that very we'll could be the issue. What he still didn't understand though was why power was still getting to both of the pumps when the key switch was completely disconnected and unhooked from the engine. He used a test light and both are still getting power as long as the battery switch is turned on.

I really appreciate you all for chiming in. If any of you think of anything else please share. I can use all the help I can get. I'm going to kind of put in order easiest to hardest from what you just said to what Dr. Honda told me to check. Thanks again for the reply and if anyone else has any experience shoot whatever info you got. It's def appreciated

 

[Mstone9942]

Biff: My boat is the same way. If I drop anchor, and let the kids swim.... if I don't get that fan on for a couple minutes, it will start... sputter... and die. At first I thought there was an issue... but after a few years... I just realized that's the way it is.

MStone: The high pressure pump will run whenever the key is on. But the "Lift Pump" will only come on while cranking the engine. SO... if the tech drained the tank on the high pressure system... then more fuel WILL NOT come back into the tank, unless it's cranking. Once running... the lift pump shuts off, and the pulse pump is the only thing feeding the system. (it's a mechanical pump)

Finally.... if the high pressure pump was bad... the engine wouldn't start at all. You need good pressure to feed the engine, and if the pump was bad... it wouldn't start. (I think you are safe there)


If there is ANY question about the ECU... then you really need a hand data terminal to check it, and run the tests. If where you took it is a real shop... then they should have a tool. Yes, the Merc tool is crazy expensive... but Rinda makes one that is around $400.


OK... if this was my boat...

1) I would verify that you can suck fuel up the feed hose, that is connected to the bottom of the lift pump.
2) Then, I would check the function of the lift pump. (only comes on while cranking) There is also a relay and fuse mounted next to it that need checked)
3) Replace the small metal filter on the bottom of the fuel pump (it plugs easy) and replace the main screw-on filter.


I think if you do that... you will be OK.



Did the tech tell you what your compression was?

A question about the lift pump. You said it should only come on while cranking but it comes on and starts working immediately when the battery is switched on. So wouldn't that mean something is wired wrong to the battery switch that is giving the lift pump power when in fact it should not unless it was getting cranked?

Another scenario I was wondering about...Would the Relay switch typically stop the lift pump from working and wait until it was cranked? Or at least stop the lift pump from automatically starting to disperse gas when the battery is cut on?

 

[Dr Honda]

Actually.... there are 3 pumps on the 240 EFI engine.

1) High pressure pump. This feeds the injectors, and is in the vapor tank.

2) A pulse pump. This is the low pressure pump that feeds the vapor tank WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.

3) An electric lift pump. This pump pushes fuel though the pulse pump, and feeds the vapor tank while cranking only. Basically, it's an electric version of the pulse pump. At cranking speed, the pulse pump can't deliver enough fuel on it's own. But once the engine is started... the pulse pump pushes plenty of fuel.


Since there is a redundant pump in the system... both the lift pump, and the pulse pump not only have to do their job at the right time... but they also need to be free flowing when NOT in operation. This is something that gets overlooked. SO.... assuming you can draw fuel up the feed hose before the lift pump... you should also be able to draw fuel up the hose before the spin-on filter. (after both pumps) If either is dirty internally... then there can be issues.


Brian has a good point. In more than one occurrence, I've seen the needle and seat in the vapor tank be corroded, and stop functioning. But, if fuel isn't flowing in.... it can be observed with either opening the drain on the vapor tank, or putting a pressure gauge on the high pressure regulator.


Yes... the 200 opti, 210 carb, 240 efi (gen 1 & 2) all are based off the 2.5 L Merc powerhead... and they all run similar. BUT... they are all a little different. Regardless... there should be no guessing. I thought you took it to a real shop... but it's perfectly fine to have a buddy help out.


But, before I give anymore help.... I want to know the exact compression on each cyl. Over the years... I've tried to help people, and it turns out to be a roasted engine. Even a bad set of reeds or a broken hose on the bleed system will show up as low compression. This is not a test to looked at lightly.

Also... I want:

1) Verification of fuel flow. (mechanical)
2) Verification of pump function. (all 3)
3) Verification of fuel pressure on the high pressure rail.


The high pressure pump shouldn't come on, until the key is in the "on" position. But this is easy to verify. Just put a meter on it, and watch the voltage. As I recall... the ECU controls the ground. SO... the hot wire is ALLWAYS hot. That means... if the other wire has gotten shorted to ground... the pump will run. SO... check the ground for a short to ground. If you find it shorted... pull the plug on the ECU, and check it there. It should be "Open" until the key is turned on.

 

[Mstone9942]

Actually.... there are 3 pumps on the 240 EFI engine.

1) High pressure pump. This feeds the injectors, and is in the vapor tank.

2) A pulse pump. This is the low pressure pump that feeds the vapor tank WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.

3) An electric lift pump. This pump pushes fuel though the pulse pump, and feeds the vapor tank while cranking only. Basically, it's an electric version of the pulse pump. At cranking speed, the pulse pump can't deliver enough fuel on it's own. But once the engine is started... the pulse pump pushes plenty of fuel.


Since there is a redundant pump in the system... both the lift pump, and the pulse pump not only have to do their job at the right time... but they also need to be free flowing when NOT in operation. This is something that gets overlooked. SO.... assuming you can draw fuel up the feed hose before the lift pump... you should also be able to draw fuel up the hose before the spin-on filter. (after both pumps) If either is dirty internally... then there can be issues.


Brian has a good point. In more than one occurrence, I've seen the needle and seat in the vapor tank be corroded, and stop functioning. But, if fuel isn't flowing in.... it can be observed with either opening the drain on the vapor tank, or putting a pressure gauge on the high pressure regulator.


Yes... the 200 opti, 210 carb, 240 efi (gen 1 & 2) all are based off the 2.5 L Merc powerhead... and they all run similar. BUT... they are all a little different. Regardless... there should be no guessing. I thought you took it to a real shop... but it's perfectly fine to have a buddy help out.


But, before I give anymore help.... I want to know the exact compression on each cyl. Over the years... I've tried to help people, and it turns out to be a roasted engine. Even a bad set of reeds or a broken hose on the bleed system will show up as low compression. This is not a test to looked at lightly.

Also... I want:

1) Verification of fuel flow. (mechanical)
2) Verification of pump function. (all 3)
3) Verification of fuel pressure on the high pressure rail.


The high pressure pump shouldn't come on, until the key is in the "on" position. But this is easy to verify. Just put a meter on it, and watch the voltage. As I recall... the ECU controls the ground. SO... the hot wire is ALLWAYS hot. That means... if the other wire has gotten shorted to ground... the pump will run. SO... check the ground for a short to ground. If you find it shorted... pull the plug on the ECU, and check it there. It should be "Open" until the key is turned on.

Thanks for response. I will rely information on. It is a shop he just typically doesnt work on Seadoos but he works on boats daily. I will pay to have the compression tested again but he said the compression was what it was supposed to be so "hopefully the engine roasted" isnt a possibility. Thanks again for the help. I will let you know the results.