Water regulator?

[dbracela]

Had the boat out twice this weekend, 1998 challenger 1800, twin 787's. Ran fine all day Saturday. Right engine was a little difficult to start Sunday after it was warmed up. After that everything seemed fine. I stopped to pick up a water skier, started up and got steady beeping, hit the fuel button on the dash and that stopped the beeps. Thought it meant low fuel. It was at a 1/4 tank. Went to head to shore and the right engine began to surge from 5000 to 7000 rpm up and down. Got fuel, checked plugs (mag side was wet, pto side light brown and dry). Started up and it ran fine for 5 minutes then the surging began again. Shut it down and limped to shore. Now it is extremely difficult to start, and won't rev past 5000 rpm with occasional surges to 7000. It dies at idle and has a continues "backfire" out of the carb into the air box. Got it started again and had my father drive while I checked the engine compartment. The right side water regulator was leaking, as the screw had fallen out of the ring that holds the bellows. Did I overheat because of the failure? There was water coming out of the telltale all day, but I suppose that could have been from the good side. I'm on my way to town to buy a compression tester. Plugs are new, water regulator put back together, all fuel lines tight. Anyone have any thoughts? I'll post the compression once I get back to the lake. Can I even test compression in the water?

Thanks, Dan.

 

[dbracela]

Compression on the rear cylinder is 0. I'm guessing I fried it because of the water regulator. Or am I missing something here? I can't tear into it until I get home in a few days, but should I start assuming that I can just do a top end on it?

 

[Guest_User]

Compression on the rear cylinder is 0. I'm guessing I fried it because of the water regulator. Or am I missing something here? I can't tear into it until I get home in a few days, but should I start assuming that I can just do a top end on it?

hey Dan, sorry to hear ya lost an engine...
I was lucky with finding my mystery water leak when the misses video`d the engines while we were underway... and the WCV was leaking like a sieve.

you won`t know how bad until it`s apart. post up some pics of the cylinder bore and the piston and thoroughly check everything out...

good luck bro...

 

[dbracela]

Completely my fault, should have shut her down and left it till I checked it all out. Thanks for the condolences though!
I'll post up pics as soon as I tear it down in a few days. Currently at the cottage and tools and working space is limited (the cottage burned to the ground at Christmas).
It ran so well yesterday, and my wife was so happy. Now she says she's done with the thing and we need to "upgrade" to a more conventional boat.

 

[Guest_User]

Completely my fault, should have shut her down and left it till I checked it all out. Thanks for the condolences though!
I'll post up pics as soon as I tear it down in a few days. Currently at the cottage and tools and working space is limited (the cottage burned to the ground at Christmas).
It ran so well yesterday, and my wife was so happy. Now she says she's done with the thing and we need to "upgrade" to a more conventional boat.

wow, sorry to hear about the Cottage...

I`m almost certain we will do the same eventually, upgrade to a more conventional boat...

 

[Bobbuff]

Wait a second..... I am having the same problem with mine. It starts fine but the starboard motor wants to surg from 4000 to 7000 and then dies out. Is that the same problem you are having??? I rebuilt the carb and it ran awesome for about thirty minutes and then started doing the same thing again. I hope I don't need to rebuild

 

[dbracela]

Mine started surging after doing some water skiing. 7000 to 5000. Then it would barely start. Then it wouldn't idle. Then it started a continuous backfire. When it first started I thought it was a fuel delivery issue. Messed around a bit and tried it again and found the water regulator leaking like crazy. I knew I shouldn't have kept running it but I just couldn't leave it alone. Anyway, I haven't torn it down yet but I now have 0 compression on one cylinder. So it's rebuild time for me I think, but I hope that isn't the case for you.

 

[Bobbuff]

I hope not either.... I really need to invest in a compression tester. Think I ll buy one tomorrow do you have to test it in the water or no? Should it be warm or can I do it cold? I am pretty new at this so just wondering. Thanks.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

You can test the compression in the water or on a trailer....just be sure to ground the plugs first.
Cold is better and it must be at WOT (wide open throttle) while cranking.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I prefer to test compression out of water, to avoid any possibility of water ingestion. Otherwise be aware of the possibility and prepared to start and run engine if small amounts of water are ingested. Any boat that can't run should be sitting on the trailer, IMO, if it's in the water with a dead engine, it's nothing more than flotsam.

 

[dbracela]

I prefer to test compression out of water, to avoid any possibility of water ingestion. Otherwise be aware of the possibility and prepared to start and run engine if small amounts of water are ingested. Any boat that can't run should be sitting on the trailer, IMO, if it's in the water with a dead engine, it's nothing more than flotsam.

Agreed, but sometimes that's impossible. And to be honest, I never even thought of that happening.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Agreed sort of, but it's risky IMO. For instance, I once sucked a tow rope into my sportster's jet pump and so removed the plugs to rotate engine backwards by hand, I could hear water sloshing in the exhaust and feel air rushing in and out of the plug holes as the surf jostled the boat. So yes, I agree it's possible to check compression in the water but why take a chance if the engine isn't capable of running to dry out any water that might make it back into the cylinders? A motor that won't run is bad enough, no need to make it worse by taking a chance on water ingestion, IMO. My preference is to perform comprehensive maintenance of this type on the trailer, due to the potential for water ingestion.

The boat almost always has to be removed from the water anyway, to perform comprehensive maintenance. Although it may not be possible to remove the boat from the water, it's also impossible to expel water ingested into an engine if it cannot be started and run.

I'd say a good percentage of boats I've repaired (countless hundreds) were damaged by water ingestion, this occasionally happens even on sterndrive types when the throttle is pulled back too quickly. I've replaced countless starters on engines hydrolocked by ingestion, the customer hits the starter, the starter motor mounting frame flexes and distorts, the bendix gear gets destroyed, and the flywheel teeth get chewed.

Some will just keep on hitting the starter trying to catch a few teeth and get it going. After this happens about five or six times, the flywheel condition is so bad, the motor has to come out for a new flywheel.

So yeah, better safe than sorry when it comes to water ingestion.

 

[dbracela]

Agreed sort of, but it's risky IMO. For instance, I once sucked a tow rope into my sportster's jet pump and so removed the plugs to rotate engine backwards by hand, I could hear water sloshing in the exhaust and feel air rushing in and out of the plug holes as the surf jostled the boat. So yes, I agree it's possible to check compression in the water but why take a chance if the engine isn't capable of running to dry out any water that might make it back into the cylinders? A motor that won't run is bad enough, no need to make it worse by taking a chance on water ingestion, IMO. My preference is to perform comprehensive maintenance of this type on the trailer, due to the potential for water ingestion.

The boat almost always has to be removed from the water anyway, to perform comprehensive maintenance. Although it may not be possible to remove the boat from the water, it's also impossible to expel water ingested into an engine if it cannot be started and run.

I'd say a good percentage of boats I've repaired (countless hundreds) were damaged by water ingestion, this occasionally happens even on sterndrive types when the throttle is pulled back too quickly. I've replaced countless starters on engines hydrolocked by ingestion, the customer hits the starter, the starter motor mounting frame flexes and distorts, the bendix gear gets destroyed, and the flywheel teeth get chewed.

Some will just keep on hitting the starter trying to catch a few teeth and get it going. After this happens about five or six times, the flywheel condition is so bad, the motor has to come out for a new flywheel.

So yeah, better safe than sorry when it comes to water ingestion.

Now I'm scared. I hope I didn't wreck it. I just wanted to test it so I would know but I couldn't get the trailer down to the boat. We were at my parent's cottage to clean up after a fire, and launched the boat to have some fun between jobs and to keep everyone's moods up. We felled a number of half burned red pines across the "path" that allows us to back the trailer down to the lake. There is no other launch on the lake. My impatience got the better of me. After some mad Chainsawing, It's now on the trailer out of the water, how can I tell if I ingested any water?

 

[Guest_User]

our jetboats have 2 huge mufflers, then waterboxes, then the tuned pipe, turning upward to the head pipe and manifold... you really need a lot of water to get all the way in there to flood the cylinders.

unless I`m misunderstanding something here...

I have muff delet on ours and just run the water boxes with custom stainless exhaust to the outlets. I`ve never injested water from floating around or when cranking the engines over...

but, for good practices, always do a compression test on the trailer, this way there is no load on the impeller from water and the engine will spin freely to give an accurate test reading....

 

[Guest_User]

4 giggles, this is how we found our leak... took a video while getting up on plane and wa la there it is!:facepalm::lols:

and this was a brandy new WCV right out of the box...

[video=youtube;aldY0Nh_aC0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aldY0Nh_aC0[/video]

 

[dbracela]

4 giggles, this is how we found our leak... took a video while getting up on plane and wa la there it is!:facepalm::lols:

and this was a brandy new WCV right out of the box...

[video=youtube;aldY0Nh_aC0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aldY0Nh_aC0[/video]

Good catch on your part. I think I'll have my head in the engine compartment on every "first run" once this thing is fixed.

I was getting at least that much water out of my WCV. How long do you think you could have run your boat like that before it caused any damage?

 

[Guest_User]

Good catch on your part. I think I'll have my head in the engine compartment on every "first run" once this thing is fixed.

I was getting at least that much water out of my WCV. How long do you think you could have run your boat like that before it caused any damage?

in searching for the leak, I was feeling around the engine and pipes and nothing was to hot, I believe it was still getting some water and leaking at the same time. That feed from the pump pushes a ton of water...

 

[dbracela]

The damage




Dug into the engine today and found that the circlip from the rear piston had blown out. Looks like a needle bearing also came loose and chewed up the cylinder and piston head. I think it's actually embedded into the piston but it may be difficult to tell in the pictures.

What would cause a failure like this?

I am installing a reman engine. I will be rebuilding this one over the summer, so I'm wondering what type of damage I should be looking for in the bottom end. So far I haven't found anything. The connecting rods do have a bit of side-to-side slop. Is that normal? I know it doesn't matter, as it will all be rebuilt or traded in as a core, but I'd like to use this as a learning experience.

Thanks, Dan.

 

[dbracela]

Also, how many needle bearings should I have found?

 

[dbracela]

Pulled the engine, packed it to be delivered to a local rebuilder. He quoted me 700 to 1000 and a week turnaround time.

Now, I pulled the carbs and left them off to the side, as I couldn't figure out how to get the choke and throttle cables off. Is there a trick to this? I've read the manual but it's kind of vague.

Thanks, Dan.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I don't know how your choke and throttle cables are set up, the one's I'm used to seeing have barrels molded on the ends and a notch that lines up with the cable. Just rotate the barrel til the cable aligns with the notch, and pull the barrel out of the pocket it sits in.

That piston crown doesn't have much carbon on it, must've been getting plenty of fuel to keep it cool? Circlip just popped out, eh? I've seen a few posts with similar descriptions.

Were those pock marks on the crown from wrist needles kinda looks like maybe?

Any relation to the water leak, overheating? Doesn't look like overheating to me, from way over here.

 

[dbracela]

I don't know how your choke and throttle cables are set up, the one's I'm used to seeing have barrels molded on the ends and a notch that lines up with the cable. Just rotate the barrel til the cable aligns with the notch, and pull the barrel out of the pocket it sits in.

That piston crown doesn't have much carbon on it, must've been getting plenty of fuel to keep it cool? Circlip just popped out, eh? I've seen a few posts with similar descriptions.

Were those pock marks on the crown from wrist needles kinda looks like maybe?

Any relation to the water leak, overheating? Doesn't look like overheating to me, from way over here.

I was thinking the pock marks were either from the wrist needles or the circlip itself. I found 34 needles. If you zoom in on the pic of the piston you can actually see either what's left of a needle or what's left of the clip embedded in the crown.

I honestly don't know what caused the failure, but the clip took a chunk of metal with it when it came out. There's quite a bit of side to side play in the rods, so maybe just an old tired motor.

I'll be checking and cleaning every system I can while waiting for it to return, but so far I haven't found any other blocked cooling lines. When it happened on the water that engine was quite a bit warmer than the other, so the leak may have played a role.

Thanks for the tips on the carbs, I'll check them out again tomorrow.

 

[dbracela]

Wow, am I ever glad I read this forum every day and decided not to do just a top end on the engine. The more knowledgeable guys on here say that you can't tell what shape the bottom end is, so just doing a top end is risky to say the least. Just got a call from the guy rebuilding my engine (I had three engine "swap" deals not work out), he said that a number of bearings were damaged, one was missing, a "cage" had melted, and one bearing was mashed to pieces as if it spent some time up in the cylinder. He says that cage often fails in overheat situations. One cylinder will need a re-sleeve as the grooves are too deep to machine out. Sorry about the lack of terminology, I don't do much bottom end work, even on the cars, so I am having difficulty explaining it well.

Long story short, don't just do a top end without at least inspecting the bottom end first. Mine turned over by hand smooth as can be, I couldn't see any damage without splitting the cases, and all I could hear from it was a slight click when rotating it by hand.

 

[ericbesso]

Nice thread, very thorough. good luck with the rebuild. let us know how it ends up.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Yeah, you MIGHT get away with doing just a top end under certain circumstances but IMO unless you really have to pinch pennies or are a risk taker it's much better to go reman and get a warranty, let someone who builds these engines all day long everyday do it right.

Now, make sure the driveline is straight, you'll need the alignment fixture to do it right.

Eventually every one of these engines will fly apart, only a question of when. Could be within 2hrs or after 300hrs, this is why it's so important to get the fuel system right, get it fat then come back till it isn't too fat. Oil too, else you will experience early failures.

This is why I took no chances