Troubleshooting Challenger 2000

[gerrychuck]

Hello, all; I am a new (as in today) owner of a 2002 Challenger 2000 with the 240 efi. My son (an apprentice auto mechanic) and I did a brief checkout pre-purchase, including compression check (120's across the board)and checking plug condition and gap. The battery was dead, and we threw an industrial charger/booster on it, and started the motor very briefly (about 5-10 secs) to make sure it would. I took delivery of the boat today, and ran it out to the lake to try it out; the battery was still low (predictably) which I had kind of conveniently forgotten about, which led to attempts to charge it up with booster cables. I seemed to be quite difficult to get the charge up, and eventually we boosted it in the water (that was a bit of a process) and got it started. It idled fine, but there was a whining noise from the instrument panel; it wasn't very loud, more annoying than anything, and I couldn't tell if it was supposed to be a warning or was in fact a normal sound for that boat. Unfortunately the seller had forgotten to bring the manual so I didn't have anything to refer to. We idled away from the dock, and when I tried to advance the throttle the motor bogged until I brought it back to idle, then I tried to advance the throttle again and the motor died. Despite the time on charge and having run for 5-10 minutes, the battery was deader than before, and we ended up paddling back to the dock.

So, a couple of questions. First, I have read here that there is in fact a low voltage warning in the boat; is that likely what I was hearing after startup? Second, if the battery was still very low on voltage, could it cause the boat to die when I started to bring the power up? If not, any ideas about what the issue might be?

I am giving the battery a thorough charge tonight, but I suspect the battery is pooched, and I'm hoping that's all that's wrong. I might try starting the boat hooked up to the hose briefly tomorrow (probably will need my booster pack) to see if the warning is still on when running with a charged battery.

Last question: the flush port is on the starboard side under the engine hatch, right above the battery, yes?

Thanks in advance for any assistance here; I'm looking forward to participating on this forum as I learn about the boat.

 

[Dr Honda]

SeaDoo only used the Merc engine for a couple years... so we don't have a supper knowledge of it.

First... replace the battery. A wet battery... once they start to die... there is usually no bringing them back to life, and it puts a huge load on the charging system. I would not try to run that boat any longer on a dead battery. Also, if the voltage sags below 10.5v, the engine isn't' going to keep running. Unlike a car... the charging system doesn't have much of an output at low RPM's.

Second... it is incredibly bad to "Jump Start" any SeaDoo boat. The MPEM is fragile, and you could burn it out, and on a Merc boat... if you can find one... it will be expensive.

Third... you can run the engine using a garden hose for cooling... but most of the time, your problems won't show up until it's sitting in the water, and there is a load on the engine.


OK... as far as the problem...


The Merc EFI system is very convoluted. You have 3 fuel pumps... and any one of them could be bad. I would start with checking pressures along the way, and then report back. Also, check for any air leaks in the fuel system, and check the filter to make sure it's clear.


As far as the "Whining" noise... there is a warning buzzer under the helm, and it may be bad. In turn... just making a screeching/whining sound. Find the buzzer, disconnect it, and feed it 12v directly to see if it's working.

If the buzzer is dead... and that was what was making the noise... it was probably just because of a low voltage alarm.

 

[RFoster130]

Once again Doc is dead on. I have seen the regular mercury motor guys stress repeatedly that the engine is very fragile when it comes to proper voltage. They run bad when the battery or chraging system isnt up to par. I would guess a new battery fixes a lot of the problems. Swap it out and go for another test run and then post back how it reacts.

 

[gerrychuck]

Thanks for the quick feedback and assistance. It confirms what I was thinking; that the warning was because of low voltage, that the system couldn't charge at idle, and that the low voltage subsequently killed the motor when the load increased. That really makes sense considering Dr. Honda's info that the charging system doesn't have much output at idle speeds. The 10.5 v threshold is really useful information; when I got home and put my charger on the battery, it only read 8 volts, so it was really badly discharged.

Unless I did some damage with the boost, I'm very hopeful the battery is the only problem. The seller is a standup guy who swears the boat performed flawlessly over the past 3 seasons, and I have no reason not to believe him. He left the battery switch "on" inadvertently for several weeks before I came over to check the boat out; prior to that the battery had been okay too. It certainly sounds like the bad battery can explain pretty much all the issues I've seen, so hopefully that's all there is to it.

Now the issue will be getting a chance to try the boat in the water again; it's a crappy day today, I'm away for the next 2 weekends, and in this country opportunities to get a boat out in October are few. Thanks again for responses; it's really appreciated.

 

[gerrychuck]

One more observation, and question: The battery in the boat is not a wet battery, but rather it appears to be an AGM (new in June 2004); does this have any material affect on the issue?

Also, regarding the potential for damage from boosting, I should mention that this battery has two sets of posts; the boost current was applied through the unused large posts on the battery, and not through the smaller posts, which are the ones used to actually connect to the starter and all the other electricals on the boat. Hopefully this would isolate the boost current from the boat's systems. Hopefully.

Thanks.

 

[WAJetboating]

One more observation, and question: The battery in the boat is not a wet battery, but rather it appears to be an AGM (new in June 2004); does this have any material affect on the issue?

None at all. A dead battery is a dead battery.

Also, regarding the potential for damage from boosting, I should mention that this battery has two sets of posts; the boost current was applied through the unused large posts on the battery, and not through the smaller posts, which are the ones used to actually connect to the starter and all the other electricals on the boat. Hopefully this would isolate the boost current from the boat's systems. Hopefully.

Nope. It just has two sets of terminals connected in parallel. If the boat's cables were connected to the battery, whatever you applied to the battery was applied to the boat's electronics.

Replace the battery with a new, charged one. That's Step One. Fuel injected engines don't deal well with excessively low battery voltage; as just one symptom, the injectors don't see sufficient voltage across their terminals and therefore don't open fully, starving the engine for fuel and running it lean.

 

[gerrychuck]

Thanks for the reply. As soon as I posted the comment about using the open terminals on the battery I realized I was wrong; my apologies for the brainfart.

Regarding the comment about how low voltage affects fuel injected engines; that really makes sense considering how the boat behaved. It was willing to idle, but acted starved for fuel when I tried to advance the throttle. As you noted, the obvious first step is to replace the battery and try again. I spoke to the seller yesterday, and he was adamant that the boat ran perfectly 2 weeks ago. I know the battery is dead, and I believe in Occam's Razor; that the most obvious answer is probably the right one, so I doubt that something else failed simultaneously with the battery.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to get the boat back in the water soon, but the weather today is +5 C (40 F) and raining, so it certainly won't be today...

Thanks again for the help.

 

[gerrychuck]

Quick update; we're having some Indian summer here, so I managed to get the boat out (with a new battery) for a quick run tonight. Very rough water, so I couldn't exactly wring it out regarding top speed, etc. but the battery seems to have fixed the mechanical issues. The boat started right away, no warning buzzer, and ran fine; good acceleration and throttle response, no issues at all. Looks like that was the entire problem.

Now, on to the fun stuff: hydroturf, maybe a bimini, getting a ski pylon fabbed up, and possibly sending the impeller off for a rebuild. Thanks again for the assistance.

 

[WAJetboating]

Yep, fuel injectors need to see a full 12VDC to open properly. Glad the battery seems to have resolved the issue!

 

[gerrychuck]

Yeah; it was a real relief to get the boat out and have it run fine. Now we'll see if I can avoid making any more stupid mistakes like boosting from a running vehicle

 

[Dr Honda]

Glad to see it's running for you.

Just a few FYI's...

1) A good battery should always be step #1 if you are having issues.

2) A wet battery should only have a 3 year life if maintained. Sure, they can go 5 or 6 years... but don't count on it. Since yours was 2004... it should have been replaced without question.

3) an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) is a "Wet" battery. The difference is, it's acid is in a fiberglass mat that is acting like a sponge to keep it from spilling.

4) Some Jet Ski's... like Polaris, and Arctic Cat... they can have enough power in the battery to crank the engine with good speed... but the voltage can sag past the point where the ignition won't turn on. I get them in my shop all the time and people say they won't start. The first thing I do, is to drop a different battery in it... and they fire right up. (The FITCH fuel injected engines are even more temperamental to battery voltage)

5) Believe the Mods when we suggest something. We aren't perfect... but we normally have seen the problem before.

But... you can read this:

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?t=33643

 

[gerrychuck]

Thanks. All good points you're making, certainly. As noted in my first post, I was very aware from the get-go that the battery needed replacing, and thought (hoped) that it was the only problem. The responses from both mods and other members reassured me that most likely this was in fact the problem, and getting that confirmation from more experienced people was very helpful. Interestingly, when I actually got the battery restraint off, we realized we had misread the date on the battery; it was actually new in 2009, not 2004, so it definitely failed somewhat prematurely.

Regarding the "wet" battery definition, my apologies; I was mixing up the usage of "wet" versus "flooded" batteries.

Again, thanks for taking the time to advise and help out. I've been involved with many boards like this one, and the expertise and willingness to help of experienced people like yourself has helped me problem-solve situations more times than I can count. Hopefully as I gain a little experience with my boat I'll be able to help someone else out down the line

 

[gerrychuck]

Quick update on my Challenger 2000; I had the opportunity to take the boat out today again on much smoother water, due to an unseasonably gorgeous stretch of weather for this time of year (mid-20's C, high 70's F). Under these much more favourable conditions, we were able to confirm that the boat is running fine and really see what it could do, and I'm still trying to wipe the grin off my face. Great holeshot and acceleration, indicated 50+ mph top speed, and those insane jetboat turns. 40 mph is so effortless in this boat; hardly feels like it's working. There was enough of a wind to experience the weathervaning tendency of the boat at speed; makes me think a little bit more about the possibility of putting the Cobra jet fins on at some point. Overall, however, I'm very happy with the boat and it's performance, and really looking forward to next summer.

Next step; winterize, and while I have the stator off, I think I'll pull the impeller off and send it off for reconditioning and possibly some repitching to further improve the hole shot (our main use for the boat will be slalom skiing, and we're all around 200 lbs, so there's no such thing as too much bottom end). I also have the mounting tube for the ski pylon off, and I'm going to run it down to a machine shop to have them fabricate a solid bar to fit the sleeve.

On a slightly different note, I ordered and received my cover from Poppy, and couldn't be more happy with it; great fit, easy to put on, looks great, and trailers great. I can honestly say I've never had a better boat cover. Terry and crew have a really good product and I certainly would recommend it based on my experience so far.

Thanks again for help and advice, and I'm really looking forward to next summer!

 

[WAJetboating]

Glad all is working well and you're happy! It's a great boat. You'll be trying to wipe that grin off your face all summer next year.

Terri Poppy OWNS the market for Seadoo covers. No better covers nor customer service anywhere. I wish she made covers for other things, too - she'd have a lot more of my money.

Please be sure to keep us informed of your adventures, and photos are always appreciated!

 

[gerrychuck]

New questions!

Regarding the Poppy company and their product; I bought the cover after researching the subject here on the forum and the research certainly paid off; saved me making the mistake of ordering a replacement factory cover. As far as customer service, my cover shipped the same day I placed the order; you can't beat that!

Quick question; my boat (2002 Challenger 2000, 240 efi) should have the low speed steering assist, correct? If so, mine is not working or has been disabled, as full lock steering inputs do not change engine rpm at all.

On a related note, there are several electrical connectors on the starboard side of the engine which have been disconnected; there are (I believe - I'm writing this at work so I don't have the boat handy to check) 3 individual wires, each with a male/female connector, all, as I mentioned, disconnected. Just wondering what these might be for. Sorry I can't provide pictures right now.

Last question (today, that is): Has anyone had any experience with the StarBrite stabilizer/fogging product? My local boat dealer mentioned it to me yesterday; you add the product to your fuel like any other stabilizer, then run at least 5 gal. of fuel through the engine, after which you can put the boat away for the winter without further fogging, "witches brew", etc. Just wondering if anyone has tried it.

 

[WAJetboating]

Quick question; my boat (2002 Challenger 2000, 240 efi) should have the low speed steering assist, correct? If so, mine is not working or has been disabled, as full lock steering inputs do not change engine rpm at all.

Check the cable setup behind your steering wheel. You should be able to see the cable being pulled when the wheel is turned all the way to one lock or the other.

On a related note, there are several electrical connectors on the starboard side of the engine which have been disconnected; there are (I believe - I'm writing this at work so I don't have the boat handy to check) 3 individual wires, each with a male/female connector, all, as I mentioned, disconnected. Just wondering what these might be for. Sorry I can't provide pictures right now.

This V6 2.5L engine is shared with a variety of jetdrives, outboards, etc. It's a very popular workhorse for Mercury. The wiring harness is set up for lots of applications, and there are "extra" wires that don't get used depending upon the life that particular engine is living.

For example, on the starboard side you'll find a stray grey wire hanging near the voltage regulators. That's the output for the tachometer. There's one coming from both of the regulators but your boat only needs one such signal, so the other wire is just left over. You could connect your tach to either one and it would work identically.

Last question (today, that is): Has anyone had any experience with the StarBrite stabilizer/fogging product? My local boat dealer mentioned it to me yesterday; you add the product to your fuel like any other stabilizer, then run at least 5 gal. of fuel through the engine, after which you can put the boat away for the winter without further fogging, "witches brew", etc. Just wondering if anyone has tried it.

If you winterize according to Mercury's instructions, there's no need to fog your engine. The extra-rich oil ratio protects things just fine.

 

[gerrychuck]

Had a bit of an interesting afternoon trying to winterize the boat today; had some issues servicing the jet drive. First, I had purchased a new lube pump with the proper thread, since my old pump was a metric thread for my Yamaha outboard. Unfortunately, that nice, appropriately threaded fitting on the new pump wouldn't even pass air, much less gear oil. It seems to have a check valve in it, which clearly is not functioning as designed. I ended up using the old pump with the end fitting flipped around and held manually up against the drain hole, but eventually managed to get the front gear oil changed successfully. So much for the successful part of the day...

Moving to the back of the drive, I had no trouble detatching the thrust reverser and steering cables and removing the hood/nozzle assembly. After removing the bolts through the stator, I was having a gret deal of difficulty breaking it loose from the wear ring, until I eventually realized that I had to detach the trim plate (not mentioned in the otherwise extremely helpful directions I pulled off the board here). Once that was done, we managed to break things loose, but instead of the stator coming loose from the wear ring, the first thing to break loose was the wear ring from the housing in front of it. We were then able to separate the stator from the wear ring and get it off, but there was about a 1/4" gap in front of the wear ring, which allowed a small o-ring (about 3/4" diameter) to fall out from near the top of the junction between them. We carefully tapped the wear ring back, and tried to relocate the o-ring, which was very difficult as it was impossible to see if it was staying where it was supposed to be or not. Since it wasn't sticking out anywhere visibly or palpably on the inside or outside of the housing, and didn't seem to be lying in the bottom of the wear ring in front of the grate, and since the housings seemed willing to mate up again properly, we assumed it was in position. So, with the stator off and draining, I removed the center hex plug to finish the draining process. Reinstalling it, it stripped out badly; it's back in, but will never come out again without considerable difficulty (at least I put anti-seize on the threads). On to the top plug; one quick look showed that it was already badly stripped, and efforts to remove it proved that to be correct. I could probaby get it out with an ez-out or something, but putting it back in would be impossible, so I left it as is and left the stator without lube in it and reinstalled it as is for the time being. Altogether a bit of a frustrating day.

So, I have a couple of questions. First, what is that little o-ring that fell out for, and what would the consequences be if it was not back in position properly? It came from the top of the housing on the starboard side, just in front of a large bung on the outside of the wear ring housing. I think it is in position, but can't really be sure. Ideally I would have taken the impeller out and then put everything back together properly, but I didn't have the right tool to get the impeller nut off, so that wasn't possible and we did the best we could. The other option was to slide the wear ring off over the impeller, but I didn't know if that was a good idea to attempt or not.

Second, are those hex bungs (bloody soft brass...) an item that I could pick up locally, or will I have to order them from Mercury or another seller? Obviously I can't finish the winterization process without replacing them, and I'd like to do that as soon as possible so I'm not out working in below freezing temps.

Third, how do you break the stator loose without the wear ring coming with it? Once the bolts are out, there is nothing holding either one on, so how is that accomplished?

Thanks in advance. I think I'll start drinking now.

 

[RFoster130]

Sounds like a rough day. I would have some beers and go at it again tomorrow. hopefully one of the merc guys has some answers for ya.

 

[gerrychuck]

Quick update; I've gone ahead and ordered the plugs (and the impeller socket) from Crowley Marine, so they're looked after. Still a bit concerned about the o-ring. I think I'll go flying tomorrow and forget about boats for a couple of days

On the positive side, my impeller looks pretty good, although it does have one significant nick in the leading edge of one of the blades. The wear ring looks very good. There is also a little bit of damage on two of the vanes on the stator. I'll get in touch with impros; probably send the impeller off for a bit of refurbishing (and quite possibly a repitch to improve holeshot) and quite likely the stator as well. Might as well start with everything tip top for next season.

 

[WAJetboating]

which allowed a small o-ring (about 3/4" diameter) to fall out from near the top of the junction between them. We carefully tapped the wear ring back

Be really careful when you do that, because there's a big o-ring that surrounds the wear ring to provide an airtight seal. That's really important because if you get an air leak in that area you'll suffer huge efficiency losses.

what is that little o-ring that fell out for, and what would the consequences be if it was not back in position properly?

It is VITAL that you have that o-ring positioned properly. That is the cooling water supply for the entire engine. The wear ring has a set of holes that allow some of the water - pressurized by the impeller - to be forced up and into the engine block and exhaust system. There is no water pump; the cooling system runs off the impeller itself. This is another example of the simplicity of the SportJet, as there is no separate water pump nor rubber impeller nor hull penetration.

Back to the o-ring... if you don't make sure it's properly positioned, you may not get proper water flow up into the block and exhaust. I presume I don't need to describe the dangers of overheating {grin}.

The other option was to slide the wear ring off over the impeller, but I didn't know if that was a good idea to attempt or not.

Yes, that's acceptable, though I'd try hard to minimize the side load that the weight of the impeller puts on the impeller shaft. It will be stressing the bearings back in the jetdrive's gearcase. It wouldn't hurt to have someone there to help hold things.

Once the wear ring is off, I use a dab of anerobic gasket maker to hold the o-ring in place while reinstalling the wear ring. You could use thread sealant, or any other tacky material that wouldn't degrade the o-ring. (Example: Don't use Vaseline, since it's petroleum based just like the o-ring.)

Second, are those hex bungs (bloody soft brass...) an item that I could pick up locally, or will I have to order them from Mercury or another seller?

Yes, those are standard plumbing plugs. However I order mine straight from Mercury. Most shops stock them since they are used on lots of different Mercury engines. BTW, I install them with a dab of thread sealant; it helps them seal properly and also acts as antiseize.

how do you break the stator loose without the wear ring coming with it? Once the bolts are out, there is nothing holding either one on, so how is that accomplished?

It's interesting this happened to you. I've had to work VERY hard to get the wear ring off. Getting it back on is really tough, too. I'm talking deadblow hammers and many minutes to seat the wear ring properly.

This is due to that large o-ring that I mentioned above, which makes me wonder if yours might be missing {yikes!}. Without the o-ring the two pieces slide right on and off.

You need to pull the wear ring off anyway to confirm that small o-ring's placement. In the process, make certain you have the large o-ring too - and if not, order one immediately. You should not run the jetdrive without it.

Report back!

 

[gerrychuck]

Thanks (yet again) for the explanation. It's amazing how much help I've received already on this forum, particularly from yourself, and I REALLY appreciate it.

So...I guess I'll wait until I get the impeller socket, take the impeller off, then the wear ring, make sure both the big o-ring and the little one are present and properly positioned, and re-install the wear ring if both rings are there. If not, I'll order whatever's missing while I send the impeller and stator off for reconditioning, and put the whole mess back together (with oil this time) when I get all the stuff back. It means a delay in putting the boat away, but at the end of it I should have everything good as new and ready to go for next season.

Thanks again for the assistance; I'm sure it won't be the last time

 

[gerrychuck]

Update: I got the impeller socket and the plugs last week, took the impeller and stator off and sent them to Impros for refurbishing. The wear ring has no major gouges, so I don't think I'll bother doing anything with it at the moment. Today we pulled the wear ring off, made sure both o-rings were in place (they were) and reassembled. We ended up using a bit of grease on the wear ring flange to get it back on; it was quite reluctant, even with the assistance of a rubber "kinetic persuader", but eventually snugged up nicely.

One point: I saw one poster who gave up on taking his wear ring off because he couldn't get a wrench on the nut that secures the steering cable to the ring. I originally intended to use a crow's foot to do this, but unfortunately we didn't have one quite big enough. Instead, I managed to get a large crescent wrench pretty much straight onto the nut to grip it, then put a large screwdriver through the hole on the end of the wrench handle to exert some torque and the nut popped loose fairly easily. I don't know what technique others use, but this worked for us.

So now I'm just waiting for my impeller and stator to come back, and reinstalling those items (and filling the stator with gear oil) should be a pretty quick job, after which I'll run the boat for a few minutes to get the stabilizer and fogging agent through the motor, and the longest winterization in history should be done. Lord, I hope so anyway! The upside of all this is that it has given me an opportunity to really learn the ins and outs of the M2 pump and how it all comes apart and goes back together, which is certainly a good thing in the long run.

Off the topic of jet boats, but still on the mechanical front; I posted a couple of weeks ago that I thought I'd go flying the next day and forget about boats for a bit: I did, had a good flight, and then a couple of hours later my partner in the plane went to fly, pushed in the throttle and heard/felt something not quite right, and shut down. Long story short, the crankshaft in the engine (130 hours since overhaul, rated for 2000 hours) fractured clean through the number 3 rod journal Fortunately it happened on the ground rather than in flight, and the only damage (expensive though it is) is to the engine itself. Anyway, my issues with the boat are incredibly minor compared to that!

 

[gerrychuck]

Spring update: The impeller and stator didn't make it back until late winter, so I wasn't able to reinstall everything until last w/e (at which point it started snowing....again). Anyway, I had a warm afternoon today and decided to fire the boat up to (finally) run some stabilizer/fogger through the motor. Fortunately, it's been below freezing ever since I took the jet apart in the fall, so there hasn't been much opportunity for corrosion to get busy. So...hooked up the hose, the motor fired up immediately, and I let it run at idle for a couple of minutes. After it settled into that lovely lumpy 2-stroke idle, I started to notice a significant rattling noise from the jet drive. I shut the motor off, then started it up again and held the reverser hood to see if it was vibrating and causing the noise, but that wasn't it. The noise was definitely arising inside the drive, and seemed to correspond to hiccups in the idle. Now...I've never run the boat out of the water for longer than 15 or 20 seconds, so I really don't know if the noise is normal and I just hadn't run it long enough to notice before, or if this is something I should be concerned about. Looking back at the work I've done; I drained and refilled the front gear box, removed the impeller and stator, sent them off for rebuild, re-installed them, refilled the stator, and reinstalled the steering vane and reverse hood, which seem to be moving and functioning properly. My question, then, is whether this metallic rattly noise is normal for this drive at idle out of the water. I didn't want to rev the engine up any to see if it went away with increased engine speed (and smoothness) because I understood you shouldn't run the boat at anything above idle on the hose. That might have been quite informative if I had. Thoughts?

 

[WAJetboating]

Totally normal. That drove me nuts too when I first got my C2K. I tried holding the thrust reverser, steering nozzle, everything - and nothing helped. Then I realized that it's coming from the impeller shaft, and is caused by the fact that there is no load (no water) on the impeller. I worried that I had a bad bearing or something, but all clearances checked out fine. Eventually a Mercury mechanic confirmed that it's totally normal and "Stop worrying about it."

When I got my two Seadoo jetskis, they made the same sound. Horrible noise when on the trailer. Since then, I've completely rebuilt the entire jetdrive on both skis. Guess what - they still make the noise.

Don't worry about it. Just enjoy your boat!

 

[gerrychuck]

Lol; thanks! That's exactly what I thought; no load, therefore banging around. I just wanted to check it out with someone more knowledgeable than myself to be sure. Should be fun when I do get the boat out; in addition to having the impeller and stator rebuilt I also had Impros repitch the blades for a bit better holeshot. I have a replacement ski pole (the new part number, supposedly improved/stronger) on the way as well, so I'm looking forward to trying the Challenger as a ski boat.

Now...need a depth finder for my shallow, rocky lake. Any suggestions?