To buy or not to buy...

[Saqqara]

I'm looking at a 2002 GTX DI, at a bargain price. It's been neglected: lots of UV damage from being uncovered, missing windscreen, etc. I think it would be presentable with a weekend of TLC. I can't look at it and not want to buy it out of mercy.

I've heard of these engines having problems if not well maintained, due to carbs being lower than usual and taking in water. I'm sure this owner didn't pamper this thing.

There is some talk of an electrical problem. I don't know the symptoms. I think I can probably chase that kind of thing down, unless the whole wiring harness is decayed.

I don't know hours yet. I haven't done a compression test yet. I have seen the post on things to check on used PWC's and will print it out. She says it will run fine. Is there anything specific to this model I should check? Obviously can't see if the inside of the motor is rusted...

Assuming compression seems good and reasonably equal in both cylinders, I'm tempted to buy. The main thing that scares me is the general talk about DI engine failure. I just can't get a handle on the statistical probability of it happening to me in a season or two of occasional use.

Also: I've seen posts that oil for this thing is $40 a gallon. It doesn't use off the shelf two cycle oil? Are there alternatives to Bombardier oil?

I have never even really ridden a pwc. I know this one isn't very sporty but I'm really interested in just covering more ground than I can at 5 knots in my sailboat. I have done some light wrenching on outboards and my motorcycle so I'm not afraid of minor fixes and maintenance, but I don't want to buy something that blows up. How many hours are too many?

Forgive my rattling on, and not having details yet. I'm just excited about possibly getting a new toy; but scared of the money pit it could easily become!

 

[dieselman]

Well like you said if the comp. in both cylinders is good and all it needs is a good cleaning up buy it after all it is only 6 years old. I am sure other members will tell you about the DI motor from what I understand thay wernt that bad if looked after.

 

[ScubaDoo]

I agree, if it is a low cost deal go for it. You could always make it look pretty and re-sale it if you wanted to and get something else. The profit would help on the next purchase for your sweat equity.

 

[seadoosnipe]

DI motors.....

You are smart to be concerned about buying a used DI (direct injected) pwc. There have been a few problems with them but it seems for the most part, those who have taken good care of them, have'nt had any real bad issues.
The deal with the DI's, is that they use a compressor to over come cylinder compression to inject an atomized mix of fuel and air for combustion, which is like adding a cooling water system to an air cooled motorcycle. It's just something else you have to take care of.
The RFI (rotax fuel injected) doesn't use this compressor. It's injection system works on the low pressure side of the cylinders.
Myself, and this is only my opinion. Unless this was some killer deal, I would stay away from it. If your already seeing electrical problems and UV damage, there's no telling what other kinds of issues it may have. If you like, I can get the info on doing a pressure test, not just on the cylinders, but the fuel injection compressor too!...........
Oh, BTW, I owned a 22ft Catalina. I sold it two years ago and have missed it ever since. Boating and ski ridin is fun, but can't replace the tranquility of cruising (for free) with no noise, listening to some cool tunes without a loud engine and going down into the cabin for.....well, you know what I mean (no dirty minds here, I was talking about making a sandwhich!)
Let us know what you decide to do!...............:cheers:
There are alternatives to the oil. I use QuickSilver blend that I buy from WalMart, but you have to be careful about what type you buy. It'll say on the back that it's recommended by them. You'll also have to choose between mineral or synthetic. If you know what your using now, synthetic or mineral, then stick with it. But in changing from Bombardier to another brand, you'll need to removed all the old oil because of additives. Additives from one oil to the other may not get along well in the molecular department.

 

[Saqqara]

A closer look

I still haven't gotten together with the seller to start it up, check the hours, compression, launch it, etc. I did, however, paddle over in my canoe this morning to show my wife this beast.

It is $2500 without trailer. For a PWC of that age, that seems like a steal. However, it's not the years, it's the miles travelled, and it is looking pretty rough. One expensive repair would leave me with no bargain, and a distressed looking PWC. I'm really on the fence. I can find a well kept old PWC for this price and it might be a smaller risk. I've been checking motor prices on the SBT website just as a guage of what a catestrophic failure could cost, and the DI's motor is among the most expensive. I think my needs are simple.

Paddling up behind it (it is on the shore) I could look into the outdrive. There are a few small barnacles, it spent some time in the water. One of the steering pieces that connects to the jet drive (the aftmost connection on the starboard side) is broken, glued, and broken again. I don't know how it will steer when we put it in; maybe that is just part of the OPAS system. But the DPO's propensity to make that kind of repair adds to my concern. Why not order the silly part? It's so easy these days.

I'm still gathering information. Excessive time on it will sway me: it already looks like a rental unit would (thought I have no indication it was). If it has the hours on it to match, I'm backing off.

But as others have indicated, if I can clean it up, dodge a major failure for a year, I could probably learn something and sell it for no loss. If PWC's are like motorcycles, and it seems they are, nearly everyone second guesses their first choice within a year.

 

[Saqqara]

Seller invited another caller to come at the same time, perhaps to invoke a bidding war. In the end, he was a nice guy and helpful: saved me from buying a compression tester. He seems to want one in better cosmetic shape. He thought the broken steering piece I described would actually be part of the reverse mechanism.

Battery dead. Used my motorcycle battery.
137 hours
compression about 100-105 in each cylinder.
Spark plugs: black with carbon. Oily.
Wiring problem isolated. Can hold connector in place and it will start. Connector is screwed up, but it is only one terminal, I'm sure I can improvise something.
Engine seems to sound good (other potential buyers' opinion, I don't know how a rotax is supposed to sound).

Upon starting it again later after compression test, it wouldn't shut off. I pressed stop, and it dropped RPM's quite a bit, but wouldn't kill. I could restart it to full power. Eventually we pressed the stop button (perhaps more firmly) and it killed. Maybe the start/stop button is sticking? Anyone have some ideas on this?

Display is in french, it says Entret or something like that. She says it is due service, so that's probably just a maintenance message.

I think there was just a single beep. When I put her battery back in (having learned about wiring problem) I had a continuous periodic beep and no display: poor battery I'm sure. No big deal there, I'd want to replace it with an AGM anyway.

Steering wheel moves easily from stop to stop (I need to read up on how to check for tight steering).

She's going to try to get the thing in the water this afternoon, so I can run it around some.

She paid $1800 last year for repairs but doesn't know what they were.

I'm still on the fence. Tempted but fearful. I'm dying to start fixing things; but nothing that is going to be expensive.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Wow!....

Wow, that's a lot of hours.....It may have been a rental. I'm going to pop into the manual and look around. I remember seeing something at one time about rentals.....there is suppose to be a way to check. I'll see.
The compression is pretty much bad. If you get one year out of it, you'd be doing good.
It should be between 140-150. Anything less than 100 is considered shot and needs rebuild. The price is dynamite, but how much money will you put in it to bring it back up to par? Your obviously going to be buying an upper end rebuild and with the hours, I wouldn't doubt the lower end isn't in any better condition.
I'll see what I can find on the numbers to see if it was a rental. Seem like I remember there being a color code and for sure, I know there was a rental key. They had a key that told the mpem to limit rps to about 45 mph, verses the 70 it was capable of. But I'll do a little snooping for you.
I would be thinking seriously though about that compression test. I too would think this model has the VTS (variable trim system). The part you said is broken on the back is either going to be steering, reverse bucket or VTS.
Be weary of this sale. Be very weary.........I'm thinking a couple thousand to bring it back up.....which puts you around $4400.....or so.:svengo:

The word you see in the display is not correct. If you can get me that word, I can figure out what the meaning is.

 

[ScubaDoo]

I see it as only one word to describe this seadoo..."PASS"! I think you could buy a much better doo for less total investment then your bound to spend after the purchase of this over abused seadoo!
Here's another word..."RUN" to the next seadoo to buy something better.

 

[Saqqara]

not for me

I think I will pass on this one. Thanks for talking me down.It is on craigslist new orleans if anyone is interested. It will be a good deal for the right buyer. I am just not him.

Looking for something simpler with fewer hous and preferaby garage kept. At my budget that means older, surely.

Thanks again.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Maybe so....

Your right, maybe so.....but older isn't necessarily bad! The older models have less electronics and easier motors to work on. If you get an older model 787cc, then after you go through it one time, tuning carbs, cleaning RAVE's,.........then you'll know how she feels, a lot more. And when she wants some TLC........
I have one in a 14 ft boat and I can tell you, that engine is not underpowered in a ski!...........
So, wait on the right one.......it'll come along.
BTW, I saw a 1996 Speedster in our paper, Mobile Alabama for $3700. Says it was garage kept. Sounds like a nice buy to me!....the phone number is 251-649-8115.
If someone is interested and wants to give them a call, let me know when you do. I can go over for you and do a compression test and take some pix and mail them to you.

 

[Saqqara]

I see so many ads that say "new engine" or rebuilt engine.

I doubt there is another mainstream consumer powersport so prone to engine failure. I take it that has to do with putting maximum engine in minimum hull, and then beating it around in the water, with no speed limit. And most consumers these days don't know much about maintenance.

I'm going to skip the speedster although that seems a great price. The wife wants a PWC hull, not a runabout, and I'm not about to complain.

 

[dieselman]

You should go back and do another compresion test now that it has been run for a while. There is a right way and a wrong way to do the test if the test was done wrong it would show poor compresion. Make sure choke off and the gas held wide open. Any thing over 125 is ok and if you can talk her down $500 all the better

 

[Saqqara]

Hmm. I don't think we had the gas wide open.

 

[seadoosnipe]

No WOT....

Don't run the gas wide open throttle on land....you take a chance of freewheeling the motor and doing engine damage.
Dieselman brings up a good point though. What he's explaining is, if the motor sat up for a little while, and oil/gas residual that lubricates and seals the rings was lost. Run the engine for a minute of so, to ensure lubrication to the cylinder walls, then do the test.
If the walls are dry and the motor is cold, not running for a while, then your not going to get a really good reading.
If the engine is in really good shape, it won't matter. You'll still get a good test. My 787 will normally give me 150 or just above after coming back from the river. But before I start the motor, it'll be about 145. So, the low compression your getting on that motor, along with the hours, I'd say was probably a rental.
Like myself and KustomKarl has said, "pass"..........There are to many for sale that you'll not have to worry about and still find for a good price.

 

[Saqqara]

I don't think it was a rental, I just think it was treated like one.


But I'm wondering if I did the compression test right at all. I wouldn't have thought a wide open throttle would matter on a unit not actually running:

Had already run it for about a minute.

Had both plug wires disconnected, one grounded, other hanging (too short to ground).

Removed one plug, screwed in the unit.

Pressed starter button; don't think we touched throttle. Watched needle walk up until it stopped. Took reading.

Replaced plug and did for other plug.

 

[kustomkarl]

With the compression test...it won't change the psi enough with the throttle wide open any more than 2 or 4 psi...if it is that low ...100psi-105psi...simple IT HAS PROBLEMS. Most gages aren't that accurate anyway. I have 3 gages and all read different, within 3 psi of each other on average.

 

[robin savell lloyd]

Don't run the gas wide open throttle on land....you take a chance of freewheeling the motor and doing engine damage.
Dieselman brings up a good point though. What he's explaining is, if the motor sat up for a little while, and oil/gas residual that lubricates and seals the rings was lost. Run the engine for a minute of so, to ensure lubrication to the cylinder walls, then do the test.
If the walls are dry and the motor is cold, not running for a while, then your not going to get a really good reading.
If the engine is in really good shape, it won't matter. You'll still get a good test. My 787 will normally give me 150 or just above after coming back from the river. But before I start the motor, it'll be about 145. So, the low compression your getting on that motor, along with the hours, I'd say was probably a rental.
Like myself and KustomKarl has said, "pass"..........There are to many for sale that you'll not have to worry about and still find for a good price.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe what Dieselman was saying about wot is only for the compression test. and the main thing wrong with this di type engine is the compresser used with the fuel injection has caused alot of problems over the years. maybe rotax worst engine? :hat:

 

[Saqqara]

atypical impulse buy for me...

http://neworleans.craigslist.org/boa/631356532.html

I bought this one. It's everything the other one wasn't; garage kept, freshwater used, with trailer, simpler design, shiny. Probably not a great bargain, but that would have been for time to tell.

Compression 140/140. Hours unknown but looks to be as promised.

I will probably be looking to trade this trailer for the SMALLEST POSSIBLE one so that hopefully I can up-end it in my garage. I have no place to keep a trailer.

More later (I'm sure you won't get me to shut up for awhile now...)

Thanks guys.

 

[kustomkarl]

Yes, now this looks promising to purchase. I think it is a much better deal if it is mechanically sound.

 

[Saqqara]

Glad it meets your approval!

I don't know what struck me this morning.

I learned this weekend that I don't want a beater PWC, because they are high maintenance, low life expectancy engines (137 hours="wow"). I learned I wanted a simple (easier to work on, fewer points of failure) 3 seater (Lake Pontchartrain can turn rough pretty quickly and I want stability). I also learned my wife was excited about getting one; which really evaporated my self control.

Then when I read about this "time capsule" 2001, it just seemed exactly what I needed. Having spent the morning repairing a crumbling old 93 outboard motor (well used kicker for the sailboat), I'd had enough of spending time and effort on junk.

According to Kelly Blue Book I paid too much (I'm not going to discuss the final price as I don't get others' help in second guessing!); but NADA makes me feel better. Amazing the difference between these two sources. I can't believe I was so impulsive that I went over there without having checked.

I'm going to take tuesday off work to put it through its paces; I have not had it in the water yet.

But for a few minor scuffs, a few scratches in the hull, and some residue in the bilge, it looks like it came from the showroom. It has had some repairs, however: because it sat up for years in a garage unused (but likely not winterized) some hoses broke down. There were also some electrical repairs in another visit; expensive, but what do you expect from the stealership.

It will be fun to tinker with a Rotax. I've been a Japanese car/bike guy all my life, and this is my first Euro-toy.

I don't have an operators manual, so I suppose I'll be a premium member in about 5 minutes.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Pricing.....

When you first came in asking about the used skis and other questions, that led into the idea of, "what do you think"........this is really hard for a fair and open minded person to reply to. I'll tell you why.
When I was younger, buying an old 64 Impala supersport, I thought I got a steal.....so I bought it. Then I went to my friends house and had him look it over. I was 16. His dad came out and thought it was pretty cool too, then asked what I paid for it. He said that I got robbed!.....I was kinda bummed out about it and never got over the fact, that I may have paid to much for my car.
The moral to the story is, if you buy something and you think you got a deal, then you got a deal. Never tell someone how much you paid, because they are most certainly going to tell you that it could have been purchased a lot cheaper from the guy down the road. Keep the price to yourself and enjoy the fact that you got a "steal"...............:cheers:

 

[All Things Custom]

:agree:

I personally think that the DI is a good motor. Its like anything else out there. There is more to go wrong and because they are limited in production, They cost more to maintain.

I have worked on two that no one else could figure out what was wrong with them. They both ended up being the Injectors were bad. At $250 each for the injectors, the customer wished thay had a carb model until they touched the start button and their ski fired up.

All That went away in an instant. A smile came over their face and they were back on the water.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Good work....

Your a good mechanic, no doubt. But with a compressor as an added feature to atomize a shot of air/fuel mix, it just goes against my idea of "keeping it simple".....
The RFI (rotax fuel injected) seems to be the less trouble free injection system that Rotax has come out with. Like you, if I owned the DI model, I'd know how to test it and keep it up. But so many people that buy, they don't even know the difference between the "GTX RFI or the GTX DI" model. The salesman (woman) is only thinking about money.
For the Seadoo enthusiast who's not very good with a wrench, I'd recommend the RFI models over the DI. But if your good and can trouble shoot, then you may find good performance in the DI model.

 

[Saqqara]

Price is important, but in the end, it's just the cost to birth the baby. I can't probably brag about the deal I struck but I think it is in exceptional condition.

I think I understood the pros and cons of the DI. Had that machine had better compression I'd have taken it. But I perceive it was too complex for my needs. Coming from a sailboat, I think 85HP will be enough to make me wet myself.

I wonder how fuel economy would compare between the two. I understand that the DI was a breakthrough in economy; but I expect that is relative to engines of the same size. Hopefully I will be at least even with my lighter craft.

 

[kustomkarl]

You seem very pleased with your new toy purchase...that's the way it should be. I think you did the right thing with this machine...good luck. If we can help your out with anything else give us a shout. I think you made a good decision joining as a premium member too. Now you can do some reading up on your seadoo and learn the In's and outs of maintenance.

Karl