Supercharger Failure

[Shoveahead39]

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Well here I am hating to start complainting on my first post but it's got to be done. Bought my 2006 Rxt brand new in March of 06. Mechanically I changed the oil every 10 to 15 hrs with the proper seedoo oil and filter.Also Eye candy wise it still looks brand new today.August 2007 with about 27 to 33 hrs the supercharger blew. I had the two year warrenty so I took it to the dealer they advised me to wait new style clutches were available very soon so I waited in riding season for almost a month. NO Clutches Well I wanted to ride so the dealer put on a brand new supercharger assemble. Was able to get in one more ride with my wife.January 2008 Warrenty run out in March called dealer still no clutches on backorder. Advised to call Seedoo did so explained situation was giving a case # . I am a car mechanic for a dealer and I deal with issues like this weekly if the customer has a know issue right before warrenty runs out it is repaired no questions asked. 2008 not the best summer for me and my family rode very little.RXT has about 46 to 50hrs supercharger let go again. Brand new complete unit and failed after so few hours. Yes I ride fast but I'm not some crazy 20yr old anymore no offense.Why else would you buy this thing?Well I hauled it to the dealer were I got the biggest run-around in my life.:banghead:Called the dealer they said call seedoo then call the dealer then call seedoo you get the picture. Seedoo wanted to pull the motor apart and check for damage and stick me with the bill.Supercharger known problem when I bought it Paid hard earned Cash for this Machine if taken care of you should expect it to last more than 25hrs or so. Talked to Senior advisers at seedoo still got the same old run-around. After about a month of this Lame customer service it came down to some choice words with a seedoo senior adviser. I went and picked up my seedoo and talked with a Shop manager and a seedoo tech I met out riding one day.Was told that if this issue would have been a Yamaha this issue would have been resolved no problem. I plan on repairing the supercharger myself aftermarket parts only. None of my money will ever go into seedoo pocket if I can help it.In a nutshell this company DOES not stand behind even known issues such as this.They have a redo of the washers in the SC they admit a problem exist but don't stand behind it.One question can you run a Synthetic oil if you upgrade the washers. Seedoo Customer Service sucks.:cuss:

 

[nswillin]

Hey man. That really sucks really bad what they are doing. If they have on file that they repaired the supercharger and that they told you you would get the new style clutch they should fix it.

I would just make sure that the seadoo dealer can vouch for you waiting on the new clutch. If all that is good, I would fight it even more. Maybe even get a lawyer and insist seadoo front the bill for everything.

I wouldn't do anything to that engine until this is resolved so they cant have any reason to say no to you.

Ryan

 

[sporsterjoel]

If i were you id be talking to my lawyer.... Theres more then enough history on the web about this problem that it should prove to the courts there is a known problem and BRP should step up and fix the problem, also think it long over due for a recall on the superchargers. I also agree with you saying Yamaha treat there customers right. a couple a know had a 2008 yamaha boat and with 15hrs it blew an engine Yamaha had them a new boat within 2days. seadoo does make a good product though hope they wake up and help you out. I also have some questions for you. 1, what kind of oil were you using? 2, did you get the 10hr servise done? 3, after the first supercharger failure what did the dealer do to the motor in trems of cleaning and repairing it? when a superchagercluch lets go it sends pieces of ceramic into the oil pump and system, witch will kill the oil pump so a new one must be installed and the engine flushed. If this wasnt done then you many have more damage then you may know.

 

[kustomkarl]

There are 2 sides to every claim. It sounds like you accepted the dealer to repair your problem with the "old style" clutch parts than had a second problem after the warranty expired. At this point I would submit all copies of the paper work including dates of conversations and who you spoke, to Seadoo Headquarters explaining the problem. If your in the automotive business than you know how warranties work. I remember hearing on the forum about a member that had a seadoo that was delivered to him with all the markings of a super charged model, but got a natural aspirated model. The selling dealer went out of business, but after investigation seadoo gave the member a new supercharged model. I don't know of all the details, but that person got results. The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Karl

 

[Shoveahead39]

Here the answer to the questions as follows the 10 service was personnally done by me at the 12 to 13hr range. I'm very addament about using manufactors on recommeded products lubricants .Anybody out there changing there on oil it is in text on the back of the bottle saying that this oil is for a supercharged engine.After the supercharger failed the first time I question the dealer about the oil being changed after this type failure and they assured me it would be ok. Well I walked straight up to parts an bought the oil and filter kit and changed it myself anyway. I apprieciate the support for this type problem and YES it's long overdue a recall this is a potential engine damaging event.Don't get me wrong on this I think this machine is great but because of this problem they cause their self a huge drop in consumer confidents. The day I picked up my ski I talked to a young guy working at the dealer he had a friend who wanted to buy a SC 4tec You can only guess what he told him.I live in a coastal area boats and jets ski's are everywhere I'm telling my story to anybody who will listen and I promise it's not a positive one on seedoo's part:cuss::cuss.:Not sure what public forums are???

 

[nswillin]

That's why we have this forum, so you can say anything you like about seadoo's. This site is public and is not linked with the Seadoo company at all, so say what you like, good or bad. Every company out there will have some sort of warranty problems with anything. hopefully Seadoo will do the right thing and work with you on this issue. I hope to hear soon that it is all worked out.

Ryan

 

[sporsterjoel]

Here the answer to the questions as follows the 10 service was personnally done by me at the 12 to 13hr range. I'm very addament about using manufactors on recommeded products lubricants .Anybody out there changing there on oil it is in text on the back of the bottle saying that this oil is for a supercharged engine.After the supercharger failed the first time I question the dealer about the oil being changed after this type failure and they assured me it would be ok. Well I walked straight up to parts an bought the oil and filter kit and changed it myself anyway. I apprieciate the support for this type problem and YES it's long overdue a recall this is a potential engine damaging event.Don't get me wrong on this I think this machine is great but because of this problem they cause their self a huge drop in consumer confidents. The day I picked up my ski I talked to a young guy working at the dealer he had a friend who wanted to buy a SC 4tec You can only guess what he told him.I live in a coastal area boats and jets ski's are everywhere I'm telling my story to anybody who will listen and I promise it's not a positive one on seedoo's part:cuss::cuss.:Not sure what public forums are???

not if you changed the oil but what kind cause synthetic oil will wreck the washers and cause them to fail, so on the bottle of oil you used what type does it say???? also you didnt say what the dealer did after the first set went??? so if the dealer used to wronge oil or didnt fix it right then you could be out of luck. Do you know if the dealer put a new oil pump on and flushed the motor toget all the little pieces of ceramic washer out of the engine??? If not they id be willing to bet your going to need a new motor as well.....

 

[Shoveahead39]

The dealer put on nothing but a supercharger the first time and I changed the oil right after the first failure. I am using the correct seedoo oil it says for a 4 tec supercharged engine on the back of bottle.The engine has not been flushed.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Devils advocate....

I hate to do it but after watching this thread for a few days, it's time for me to play the devils advocate.

I don't know where to start because I have so many things I'd like to touch base on. First, ......you state your a mechanic. I'd like to know what type? Are you a certified ASME shop mechanic at a major dealership or a used car lot? The reason I ask is of the obvious frustration you seem to have at not getting the service you expect. As a mechanic, I know that I can catch more bees with honey than salt. From the beginning of your thread, you seem to have communicated with obvious disdain for the Seadoo customer service department, thus getting less than satisfactory results.

Second.......look around this forum. How many complaints have you seen by members (14,000 of them) that have had the problems that you have. Those that have had problems with the supercharger, found a solution. It may be an issue with the dealership. Since all dealerships are a franchise, a customer is obviously going to be taken care of in more ways than one. If you'd have bought this PWC in California for instance, the dealership there may have had your parts and got you fixed up right away.

Third.....the reason why there is no recall on the supercharger is because there is no mechanical issue with them. The problem came about when a dealer or individual used synthetic oil instead of a mineral oil. Your owner’s manual carries a specific warning on using the synthetic oil. It's like smoking cigarettes. There is a warning on the side of the package which reads, if you smoke, you could develop cancer. At some point, your supercharger was obviously exposed to the additives of the synthetic oil that causes disintegration of these washers.

The washers were developed because there is no other cost effective material on earth that can better insulate against heat than ceramic, for a shaft spinning over 40,000 rpm. Nasa uses it in the space shuttle program, so I figure it's good enough for BRP too.

The other problem I have is the mechanic who worked on the machine. The ceramic slip washers slowly dissolve over time when exposed to the synthetic oils. If this machine was inspected at each of its scheduled maintenance check-ups, the end play measurement should have been caught before it disintegrated, since the washers thickness is lost over time until the point it can no longer handle the slip of the charger before it blows apart. If the mechanic did no measurements on the charger during routine maintenance, this is the one you should be frustrated with.

Lastly, Rotax has been here since the 1920's. In 2005, they celebrated their 85th anniversary with 35 of those years integrated with BRP. Seadoo/Skidoo is the number one, best selling snowmobile/PWC's in the world. In 2006, they turned out their 6 millionth engine. If your idea of telling anyone your story about how you were treated is to affect their product, I don't think you stand a chance in making a dent in their sales.

I'm sorry you’re upset about your ski. You also expressed that while the dealer was waiting on your new stainless washer kit; you got impatient in waiting and told the dealer you wanted the ski. You also said he installed a new charger. I find it a bit weird that if he did in fact put on a new charger, the new washer kit wasn't already in it. I also noticed in the thread, you've been asked a couple times about your oil type. Your response is that, "on the back of the bottle, it said it was good for superchargers".....I think I'd trust what my owner’s manual said verses what the back of a bottle said.

In short, if we had several members complain over their chargers, not getting the dealers to take care of them, then I'd have more sympathy for you. But evidence in the forum (and other forums I do research in) shows that you may bear some of the responsibility of what has happened to your ski.

But, this is the place to express yourself. So, vent your frustration here. You’ll get feedback that may be useful to you. Good luck with your ski!

 

[sporsterjoel]

Snipe well said. I do think they should recall it though but just my 2cents. also he/she does seem to avoid the question about what type of oil used. Also from what they said the dealer didnt fix the problem right the first time. for example didnt replace the oil pump or clean the motor out, so id thing that why the washers whent again so soon, cause theres pieces of washer will be going all through the motor.

this is what your oil pump/system looks like after a washer failer.

 

[kustomkarl]

When the SC go south it always wipes out the oil pump...the engine always needs to flushed out and new oil pumps installed...if not this is a first. I think I read in his first post that it was flushed out.

 

[Shoveahead40]

Details

Created a new account I know I didn't just kick off To answer your ? I am a GM/Ase master tech 15yrs light duty 5yrs heavy duty. My question to you if these ceramic washers are so good why are they being replaced by seadoo and aftermarket manufactors. So there good with heat but from everthing I'm reading they are taking out oil pumps and engines that is not a good application of a part. The oil I have always used is XP-S 10w40high performance oil Made by Seadoo. Part #219 700 346 on the back it states this high quality oil has been specifically formulated and tested to ensure optimal supercharger clutch performance. 4 tec supercharged intercooled engines is also on the bottle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong this is right oil. I was so particular to this issue I would not even pour it in my engine before I read it. If it ever had a drop of Synthetic oil in it,it come from the factory with it. I did my part in maintaining this machine! I welcome any feedback negative or positive Speakup guys with this Problem.

 

[sporsterjoel]

It took seado a longtime to take this problem seriously. Now all 2008+ craft have metal washer and the factory rebuild kit from seadoo have the metal washers. also your dealer telling you they couldnt get metal washers is a crock of ****. also you being a GM master tech you should know that manufacturers dont always like to admite to problem and all are guitly of it, for example how many head gasket have you done on GM's or how many #3 rod bearings have you seen go in the quad4 & 2.4L twin cam engines? if your a gm tech for 15 year youll know what im talking about.

 

[seadoosnipe]

Asme?..

My point in that question was the fact that in your writing of post number one, it read like you used no finesse in trying to get what you wanted. It read like you rushed the dealership repair shop to hurry and fix your ski so you could go riding.

What I took from this post was that you were very impatient and probably called them to the point they got tired of trying to give you answers. So, they did what they could to make you happy.

Case in point. As a mechanic, I'm sure you've had the customer that called you 2 or 3 times a day. You finally said screw it and put his motor back together and really didn't give a hoot if it worked or not.

...........the superchargers? I think when they first introduced the new ceramic slip washers in the supercharged version of the 4-TEC, they didn't think anyone would substitute synthetic for mineral. Funny thing is most of the Seadoo's have used synthetic oils from the beginning. So, I bet dealers were servicing these things with synthetic, which helped cause the problems. If the mineral oil is the only oil used from the beginning, the ceramic washers will hold up for a long time.

In my opinion, I don't think the problem with the superchargers started off as Seadoo's fault. I think it originated from the dealerships that put these things together. They are not shipped from BRP with oil in them. The dealerships do that.
I called a dealer a year or so ago when I first researched this topic and he told me to use 10 W 40 W synthetic oil. I asked him a few more times and he never changed his answer. I also called AMSOIL, they said the same.

All oil has some type of additives in them. You can buy a 10W 40W oil from Vavoline and one from Quakerstate with the same API designation and after analyzing them, you'd find that one oil had things in it that the other didn't.

The other thing I thought strange in your first post was the fact that they put a new charger on. If so, this should have already had a set of the new washers assembled on it.

Lastly, from what I understand, the new washers are stainless with a ceramic coating. So, they didn't entirely get rid of the ceramic. I don't know that for a fact yet.........but it's what I understand.

A bit more research would also help better understand what is happening with these chargers. Maybe I can let someone else put it in better words than me.

The below is from a technical support page of the AMSOIL website. I believe, the page is cited in itself.

TSB: SE-2007-04-19
Date: April 19, 2007
Page 1 of 2
Subject: SEA-DOO® supercharged personal watercraft (PWC) and sport boats
Technical Service Bulletin
Product Description: AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke® Marine Oil 10W-40 (WCF)
Submitted By: D.R.A.
Reviewed By: D.P.
Approval By: A.A. Date: May 11, 2007
Distribution: ___Internal _X_All
OBJECTIVE:

Document compatibility of AMSOIL Formula
4-Stroke Marine Oil 10W-40 (product code WCF) for use in personal watercraft (PWC) and sport boats equipped with wet-clutch protected superchargers.
ISSUES:
The recommendation of SEA-DOO to avoid use of synthetic lubricants in supercharged clutch drive mechanisms on 2004-2007 215 hp SEA-DOO 4-TEC™ series engines used in SEA-DOO personal watercraft (PWC) and sport boats.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
SEA-DOO introduced several PWC and sport boat models equipped with 4-TEC supercharged engines in 2004. A frictional clutch device is incorporated within the engine to provide protection to the supercharger. This clutch consists of two spring-loaded ceramic friction washers which transfer rotation from the engine drive gear to the supercharger drive shaft. The clutch and surrounding support bearings are lubricated with engine oil via oil immersion.
Questions have arisen about the suitability of using certain engine oils in a frictional clutch operation due to compet-ing properties required for a clutch mechanism and a 4- stroke combustion engine. As a result, SEA-DOO cautions owners to select the right engine oil to balance those properties.
SEA-DOO operating manuals and service bulletin #2004- 1 dated October 23, 2003 both state, “oils containing friction modifiers should be avoided as their use may result in excessive slippage of the supercharger clutch. This excessive slippage could result in accelerated wear and a significant reduction in clutch life.” More critical, as the ceramic friction washers wear, they become more susceptible to fracturing. Should one fracture and shatter,
extensive damage to the supercharger assembly would
likely occur. The manuals and bulletin further state that a similar situation could occur if non-mineral-based oils such as SEA-DOO XP-S™ Synthetic 10W-40 (#293-600- 039) are used, and SEA-DOO recommends not using any synthetic oil in supercharger-equipped engines. SEA-DOO only recommends mineral-based XP-S 10W-40 (#219-700-346) for this application.
AMSOIL investigated potential concerns about operational performance through testing focused specifically on the wet-clutch frictional properties of the previously mentioned SEA-DOO 4-stroke crankcase lubricants and AMSOIL (WCF).
The test regime utilized was an SAE No.2 universal wet friction test machine operated in accordance with protocol outlined in JASO standard T903:2006 subsection T904:2006. Dynamic friction, static friction and stop time are outlined as the critical criteria for predicting wet-clutch performance.
AMSOIL INC., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2007
Ceramic friction washers
Typical supercharger component break-down
Clutch mechanism

The competitive test results for the lubricants are summarized in the table below. Each individual test result was compared with the frictional categories listed within subsection T904 of JASO T903:2006, and summary results were developed based on four frictional categories: MB, MA, MA1 and MA2. Within the standard, category MB represents lubricants with relative higher tendency for slippage in an oil-immersed frictional clutch operation, while category MA2 represents lower relative susceptibility to clutch slippage.
T904 frictional categories and test results
The SEA-DOO 4-stroke mineral-based XP-S 10W-40 oil (#219-700-348) recommended by SEA-DOO specifically for this application qualified as a JASO category MA1 product. SEA-DOO 4-stroke synthetic-based XP-S 5W- 40 oil (#293-600-039) results showed less resistance to slippage and qualified one category lower at JASO MA. These test results support the position of SEA-DOO to disqualify its own synthetic engine oil for this wet-clutch application.
AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke Marine Oil (WCF) test results show a full category improvement over SEA-DOO 4-stroke mineral-based XP-S 10W-40 oil (#219- 700-348) and a two category improvement over SEA-DOO 4-stroke synthetic-based XP-S 5W-40 oil (#293- 600-039). AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke Marine Oil (WCF) has even better wet-clutch properties than the
mineral-based product recommended by SEA-DOO.
Blanket conclusions based on generic categories of lubricants like “synthetic-based” should not be made and are often used as tactics to cause customers to purchase the OEM-branded fluid.
RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL confidently recommends owner/operators use AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke Marine Oil (WCF) for 2004- 2007 215 hp SEA-DOO 4-TEC series engines without concern for the clutch slipping or wear-caused damage suggested by SEA-DOO.
AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke Marine Oil (WCF) does not contain friction modifiers and demonstrates better slippage resistance than SEA-DOO 4-stroke mineral-based XP-S 10W-40 oil (219-700-348) in the SAE No. 2 friction test. It delivers excellent wet-clutch performance in 2004-2007 215 hp SEA-DOO 4-TEC series engines used in SEA-DOO personal watercraft (PWC) and sport boats.
REFERENCES:
1. SEA-DOO watercraft service bulletin # 2004-1 dated October 23, 2003.
2. 2007 SEA-DOO operator’s guide, 4-TEC series, #219-000-474.
3. JASO standard T903:2006 sub text T904:2006.
4. SAE No. 2 Universal wet frictional test machine.


TSB: SE-2007-04-19
Date: April 19, 2007
Page 2 of 2
Subject: SEA-DOO supercharged personal watercraft (PWC) and sport boats
Technical Service Bulletin
Product Description: AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke Marine Oil 10W-40 (WCF)
Submitted By: D.R.A.
Reviewed By: D.P.
Approval By: A.A. Date: May 11, 2007
Distribution: ___Internal _X_All

 

[Croixcruiser]

Oil Decision

Thanks for the informative thread on which oil to use.

I have a 2007 RXT approaching 95 hours and I felt it was overdue for an oil change. I did not like the $10/Qt price the dealer was offering for Seadoo oil and though I would go with Mobil One that I run in all of my other machines. Thanks to this thread I will be making the trip back to the dealer to pick up the Seadoo oil. I just hate paying high prices for dealership brand when there may be better lubrication on the shelf; however, in this case it appears for warranty protection I had better keep with the Seadoo oil.

In your thread you reference that Seadoo advises to not use synthetics. I have read the manual back to back and went back again after your thread and no where in my manual does it ever mention anything about oil type. All is says is take it to the dealer, and under oil type it says see liquids and then I can find no section for liquids.

Why should this be so tough to provide advice on oil maintenance in a owners manual. Not that I don't like dealers, it's just that my nearest dealer is an hour away. That is two hours round trip and four hours for a project if you get my drift. Plus, I don't know them or their mechanics and I have found myself more times than not having to repair something at home AFTER I got it back from the dealer. I am handy with a wrench as I assume a lot of owners of high performance machinery are. Never have I had so much difficulty trying to figure out something so easy as changing the oil in my own equipment. Numerous blogs say that any oil is ok. Not until I searched "Supercharger wet clutch lubrication" did I discover this informative thread. I was ready to put synthetic in, now it is back to the dealer.

I love the machine and its performance but now I am worried about the ceramic washers in the turbo. Is there a warning sign or is the measure of free play the only indication they are ready to go. Is there a recommended service interval for replacement of the washers. I have the extended warranty so want to make sure I take advantage of that.

Once again, thanks for the informative thread.

 

[sporsterjoel]

Thanks for the informative thread on which oil to use.

I have a 2007 RXT approaching 95 hours and I felt it was overdue for an oil change. I did not like the $10/Qt price the dealer was offering for Seadoo oil and though I would go with Mobil One that I run in all of my other machines. Thanks to this thread I will be making the trip back to the dealer to pick up the Seadoo oil. I just hate paying high prices for dealership brand when there may be better lubrication on the shelf; however, in this case it appears for warranty protection I had better keep with the Seadoo oil.

In your thread you reference that Seadoo advises to not use synthetics. I have read the manual back to back and went back again after your thread and no where in my manual does it ever mention anything about oil type. All is says is take it to the dealer, and under oil type it says see liquids and then I can find no section for liquids.

Why should this be so tough to provide advice on oil maintenance in a owners manual. Not that I don't like dealers, it's just that my nearest dealer is an hour away. That is two hours round trip and four hours for a project if you get my drift. Plus, I don't know them or their mechanics and I have found myself more times than not having to repair something at home AFTER I got it back from the dealer. I am handy with a wrench as I assume a lot of owners of high performance machinery are. Never have I had so much difficulty trying to figure out something so easy as changing the oil in my own equipment. Numerous blogs say that any oil is ok. Not until I searched "Supercharger wet clutch lubrication" did I discover this informative thread. I was ready to put synthetic in, now it is back to the dealer.

I love the machine and its performance but now I am worried about the ceramic washers in the turbo. Is there a warning sign or is the measure of free play the only indication they are ready to go. Is there a recommended service interval for replacement of the washers. I have the extended warranty so want to make sure I take advantage of that.

Once again, thanks for the informative thread.

A warning sign for a supercharger failer is LOW rpm's. Also any regular(mineral) motor oil for example castrol GTX 10w40 will work fine.

 

[Croixcruiser]

Great, Thanks!