One last question guys. Finally settled on buying a 2006 sportster 215 SC. The guy is the original owner and had the super charger rebuilt at 45 hours. He had that done in 2011 and has paperwork. He now only has 70 hours on it. Question is.. Do I need to get the super charger rebuilt again because of the years and age?
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Super charger rebuild
- Thread starter rossc23
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The squirrel cages and bearings get brittle over time. If they break, they will fall into the engine and at the very least, you will need to pull the engine to clean out the parts.
Worse case, cause engine damage,,,
Worse case, cause engine damage,,,
Mike Barton
Member
I figured I would ask this question in this post and hope for a reply. I have a 2009 Challenger 180 with 43hrs on it. I put 12 hrs on it last year and figure to do 5-10hrs more this year. I am thinking of having the supercharger rebuilt after this season. Is this still considered to be "required" service with the 2009 seadoo's? Is there an hour mark (not 100hrs) that anyone recommends to have the unit rebuilt? Any insight is much appreciated.
The issue in your case is, the bearings and cages are old and potentially brittle. If they fail they will be in your engine. It is 100 hours or two years, whichever happens first. Once rebuilt with the updated shaft, you can go 200 hours or 2 yrs,,,
Yes, ceramic washers are engine killers. But,,, bearings and cages that fail do the same thing. And they fail mostly based on aged. As they age, the cages become brittle and can break. This allows the bearings to drop into the engine.
rcguy
Active Member
I thought that once you replaced the ceramic washers you were safe from destroying your engine. Are you sure about steel washers. If you are right we all own time bombs with superchargers on our engines. How can a manufacturer put out such garbage. That's BS shelling out over $250 a year for maintenance of a supercharger. If I would have known this before hand I would have run away from the Seadoos.
The bearings can absolutely fail. Many have. That this is spinning at tens of thousands of RPMs.
Don't misunderstand. The bearings and races are very good, but they do wear. Something has to,,, they do not fail as easily as the ceramic washers, but they are considered a "wear part".
Don't misunderstand. The bearings and races are very good, but they do wear. Something has to,,, they do not fail as easily as the ceramic washers, but they are considered a "wear part".
To some degree yes. The newest designs are a bit more user friendly.
Carboncow
Active Member
[MENTION=67735]rcguy[/MENTION]...since you have a an strong opinion on this that it's BS (that is may be valid for others) let me apply a little perspective and how I sleep at night with this info.
Yes there is no question that ceramic washer was a design flaw...they happen all the time and no manufacture is very good as systemic problem resolution...from Porsche with IMS bearing failures to Ford V8/V10 with spark plug issues they all just put their heads in the sand for helping customers out when this issues cause major problems. Nobody usually gives a crap until it becomes life threatening! Incremental fixes usually occur but are swept under the carpet.
What one consumer perceives as "BS" may not be the same to all. We all accept the fact that cooling systems need winterized, boats need waxed and oil needs changed because this is common is every other engine in the world. These are not Chevy Cobalts but in fact 215/255HP engines crammed in 1.3L and thus very high performance. Technology and dependability come at costs. From what I understand it was documented requirement from day one with the 4-tec engines that this was a regular maintenance with the internal being changed from 100 to 200 hours when the shift from ceramic to stainless washers.
Now I didn't buy my boat new but being a shade tree mechanic I made sure I got up to speed on the engines and drive trains of the 4-tec before I bought it...read these posts and determined the annual cost works for me. It took me an hour to remove the supercharger the first time and 20 minutes to put it back in plus the $400+ rebuild. Yes it would be twice or more for a dealer todo it.
Let the buyer beware does apply in buying anything but especially technology or performance. Is it BS?...maybe a little but it's a fact that is well known and well documented. This board and community was instrumental in my purchase by answering my pre-purchase questions w/o distain.
If a $400-500 rebuild every 2-3 years (keep in mind I'll go 3 or 4 because I live in Ohio where the season is only a fraction of what you Florida guys do) has you concerned, don't buy a bigger boat! My annual preventive maintenance on my 34ft Sea Ray is about $600 annually when averaged over 5-10 years.
I've got a neighbor with a really boring Chris Craft 19ft with some boring V6 that is approx. 3.0L and no more HP then our boats. He had to spend about $2000 on some out drive issues...I explained to him my boat has no out drive but comes with it's own set of concerns. I also told him in the jet boat/ski world the moto of "if you maintain it then you prob won't need to fix it" applies. In the world of boring 19ft V6 engines it's like having a Chevy Cobalt where oil is optional to owners during their ownership!
So I've had my boat but a few months so honestly what do I know but I can tell you now that I have the right washer in there and will prob average less then 50 hours a year I will prob do mine every 3-4 years. Running a boat year round and in salt water is another story. The one thing I learned about boating on Lake Erie for 20+ years is that we hardly tax our boats.
Not trying to say your point is wrong...but just offering a perspective especially for new buyers doing research. My research has shown me that these 4-tec engines are pretty dependable and fun little engines.
Yes there is no question that ceramic washer was a design flaw...they happen all the time and no manufacture is very good as systemic problem resolution...from Porsche with IMS bearing failures to Ford V8/V10 with spark plug issues they all just put their heads in the sand for helping customers out when this issues cause major problems. Nobody usually gives a crap until it becomes life threatening! Incremental fixes usually occur but are swept under the carpet.
What one consumer perceives as "BS" may not be the same to all. We all accept the fact that cooling systems need winterized, boats need waxed and oil needs changed because this is common is every other engine in the world. These are not Chevy Cobalts but in fact 215/255HP engines crammed in 1.3L and thus very high performance. Technology and dependability come at costs. From what I understand it was documented requirement from day one with the 4-tec engines that this was a regular maintenance with the internal being changed from 100 to 200 hours when the shift from ceramic to stainless washers.
Now I didn't buy my boat new but being a shade tree mechanic I made sure I got up to speed on the engines and drive trains of the 4-tec before I bought it...read these posts and determined the annual cost works for me. It took me an hour to remove the supercharger the first time and 20 minutes to put it back in plus the $400+ rebuild. Yes it would be twice or more for a dealer todo it.
Let the buyer beware does apply in buying anything but especially technology or performance. Is it BS?...maybe a little but it's a fact that is well known and well documented. This board and community was instrumental in my purchase by answering my pre-purchase questions w/o distain.
If a $400-500 rebuild every 2-3 years (keep in mind I'll go 3 or 4 because I live in Ohio where the season is only a fraction of what you Florida guys do) has you concerned, don't buy a bigger boat! My annual preventive maintenance on my 34ft Sea Ray is about $600 annually when averaged over 5-10 years.
I've got a neighbor with a really boring Chris Craft 19ft with some boring V6 that is approx. 3.0L and no more HP then our boats. He had to spend about $2000 on some out drive issues...I explained to him my boat has no out drive but comes with it's own set of concerns. I also told him in the jet boat/ski world the moto of "if you maintain it then you prob won't need to fix it" applies. In the world of boring 19ft V6 engines it's like having a Chevy Cobalt where oil is optional to owners during their ownership!
So I've had my boat but a few months so honestly what do I know but I can tell you now that I have the right washer in there and will prob average less then 50 hours a year I will prob do mine every 3-4 years. Running a boat year round and in salt water is another story. The one thing I learned about boating on Lake Erie for 20+ years is that we hardly tax our boats.
Not trying to say your point is wrong...but just offering a perspective especially for new buyers doing research. My research has shown me that these 4-tec engines are pretty dependable and fun little engines.
rcguy
Active Member
Thanks for the lecture but my opinion is still the same.
I'm a bit calm down, Carboncow, now that some time has past. Not happy about the supercharger destroying the engine because of wear. These engines are very expensive to replace. I must admit I enjoy this boat and receive many compliments every time I take her out. I put about 25 hours a year on her and will probably rebuild the supercharger every 3/4 years like you. I rarely push the engine over 6000/6200 rpm.
I see SeaDoo jet skis out at the flats and those guys really push those 4 tec engines. I'm surprised they last as long as the do because of the extreme abuse those engines take.
I'm a bit calm down, Carboncow, now that some time has past. Not happy about the supercharger destroying the engine because of wear. These engines are very expensive to replace. I must admit I enjoy this boat and receive many compliments every time I take her out. I put about 25 hours a year on her and will probably rebuild the supercharger every 3/4 years like you. I rarely push the engine over 6000/6200 rpm.
I see SeaDoo jet skis out at the flats and those guys really push those 4 tec engines. I'm surprised they last as long as the do because of the extreme abuse those engines take.
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X-Runner
New Member
I agree with both rcguy and Carboncow. you have to expect some extra cost for high performance, but the Seadoo S/C thing is a little excessive.
I had my Yamaha Waverunner for a few years. It was a S/C intercooled 1.8L engine. I could wring that thing out all damn day. And i did quite often. It never gave me a lick of trouble. 2 years later, the guy that bought it tells me the same thing. He rips up and down the river and has still not done a thing to it other than the yearly maintenance. So in 7 years and around 160 hours on it, it is still fine.
So what i am saying is, yes, i think the Seadoo S/C design is a bit weird that you need to replace bearing after 2 years. That just doesnt make any sense to me. And i am a mechanic. Nowhere else have i ever heard of bearings going bad by just sitting there. As long as they were taken care of, of course.
Someone please explain to me how tempered metal parts just become brittle by simply sitting there? Not trying to be a jackass. Sorry if it comes across that way. Just trying to learn here.
I had my Yamaha Waverunner for a few years. It was a S/C intercooled 1.8L engine. I could wring that thing out all damn day. And i did quite often. It never gave me a lick of trouble. 2 years later, the guy that bought it tells me the same thing. He rips up and down the river and has still not done a thing to it other than the yearly maintenance. So in 7 years and around 160 hours on it, it is still fine.
So what i am saying is, yes, i think the Seadoo S/C design is a bit weird that you need to replace bearing after 2 years. That just doesnt make any sense to me. And i am a mechanic. Nowhere else have i ever heard of bearings going bad by just sitting there. As long as they were taken care of, of course.
Someone please explain to me how tempered metal parts just become brittle by simply sitting there? Not trying to be a jackass. Sorry if it comes across that way. Just trying to learn here.
Carboncow
Active Member
Well there are other options for upgraded SC but they must have the same internals, no?
My opinion is (as mentioned above) that the ceramic failure is really what pushed the published service interval. I have a feeling with the stainless update they will run forever and as [MENTION=76421]X-Runner[/MENTION] stated anyone who's been around the block knows...why would such and item fail? Hell, I've closing in on 300K miles on my 2003 Volvo XC70 and still has the OEM turbo charger...so WTF?
As stated before It will be 200+ hours and 5 years before I do my SC again. The one that came out looking spotless. I'm sure my 4-tec will have other issues long before the SC does.
Carboncow
Active Member
If you see the build/quality of the bearing assembly...it looks pretty impressive. I'd love for someone to chime in who has seen a failure of the upgraded design. I've been over not he "green" forum and have yet to see that. They would know but I'm not sure if the techs could give a honest answer since they have a great business model going on. I don't have any conspiracy theories from the techs but would love to see some data about any failures related to the upgraded...I know there are not a ton of boats out there but many many skis. Any one here active on the ski forum know any antidotal evidence?
miramar2
Member
And not to forget,
Regular oil and filter change are crucial important on SC engines, all kind of engines for that matter!
And of course, using a top quality engine oil specified for the engine.
A poor quality or contaminated oil will not do the bearings in the SC any good!
Greetings from Norway.
BR
Tom
Regular oil and filter change are crucial important on SC engines, all kind of engines for that matter!
And of course, using a top quality engine oil specified for the engine.
A poor quality or contaminated oil will not do the bearings in the SC any good!
Greetings from Norway.
BR
Tom
rcguy
Active Member
I'm not going to rebuild my supercharger every two years. I rarely go over 6200 rpm and change the oil and filter every fall of every year. I use my boat 25 to 30 times a year and don't usually put on more then an hour of engine time even when fishing. I'm thinking like a rebuild every 4/5 years and that's a rebuild every 100 to 150 hours of engine time. I may even reconsider that interval.
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RowdyRod
Member
JPass
Well-Known Member
This is why I have the non-supercharged version
+1. We wouldn't have purchased our boat if it had the twin SC motors. With maintenance costs twice that of a single engine boat, we opted for the non-SC to avoid the $1K maintenance of the SCs. 310 HP is plenty for us.
rcguy
Active Member
Smart move. 310 plenty of horsepower for a 21 ft boat.
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