Starting problems

[atlantis6]

Hello

Earlier i posted a thread about my solenoid because i touhgt it was the problem.

Now we tested it and it seems that it is still good, put 12 v to it and it clicked en measured 0 ohm.

the next test i did was the lanyard on pos 1 tested the red wire on the solenoid with ignition key on result 12 V.

I assume this means that the ignition key works.

There is also a thin yellow-red wire on the solenoid there is no 12v on it or is there only 12 v when the ignition key is turned over.

What i did next is red wire from battery connecting with the yellow-red wire on solenois and solenoid clicked but starter did not turn.

I measured the voltage on the starter when big red wire en yellow-red wire where connected (12v) got about 4,5 V on starter i can think that this is not normal.

Anyone any idea what is broken

 

[Coastiejoe]

If I understand you right,,,

All is good except on the output side of the solenoid. It shows 4 to 5 volts when it SHOULD be cranking, correct?

If so, then I would say there is something wrong inside the solenoid. It is connecting but is dirty for example. If you jump over the solenoid with a big pair of pliers what happens? If it cranks as it should, then I would say for sure you need a solenoid. If it doesn't, then it is likely a bad wire or connection issue.

 

[atlantis6]

the solenoid output shows 4 volts if i connect the big red battery wire to the small yellow- red wire on the solenoid.

When i jump over the solenoid big red wire to wire with yellow cap it do not crank it sparks like short circuit

What about the thin yellow red wire should there be 12 v when turning over the ignition key

 

[Coastiejoe]

No mater what any volts SHOULD be on any terminal, if it does NOT crank when you jump over the solenoid then you have an issue.

If you KNOW you battery is good and the connections of the wires are good, then you have a starter that is defective.

You should expect a bit of a spark when jumping the solenoid but once you get a good connection there should be no sparks. If you get a pretty good spark or it keeps sparking then again, there is an issue with the starter.

By jumping the solenoid, in theory you are connecting the starter directly to the battery.

So again, if you have a good ground and good connections, I think you must have a bad starter.

 

[atlantis6]

i hope not the starter to many €€€€€€€€€€€

 

[Coastiejoe]

You can hope,, LOL

But it sounds like it to me.

You have to be VERY careful about jumping the ski as it often smokes critical parts of the electrical system of the ski. I do NOT recommend you use anything other than the installed battery to do the various tests while the started is installed in the ski.

Sometimes the starter gets wet and sticks (rusts). It may require nothing more than removing it and cleaning it up. But once removed, you can easily test the stater. Simply ground the body and put 12 positive to the terminal...

If it sparks, like I think it will, you have a seized starter. I have seen others hit the body with a ball peen hammer to jar the armature loose and what not and it comes back to life. If you do so, you are hitting it enough to jar it, NOT BREAK IT...

I am sure others will jump in and offer their thoughts on this as well.

 

[atlantis6]

that i did last year with a hammer and it worked but now nothing.

But what about the 4 volts on the output of the solenoid.

Would it not be better to remove the starter clean it fix it in a bench at put 12 v on it.

last question should there be 12 v on the yellow red wire when turning on the ignition key

 

[Coastiejoe]

I don't have your wire diagram in front of me so I can't answer the yellow wire question off hand. Can later today..

You should have 12v on the output, that is correct. My guess is due to the seized starter you are not getting an accurate reading as the voltage is being absorbed through the starter and the ground of the starter.

I would think you could remove the wire that runs to the starter to see if you would then get 12v potential power. Called potential as it will not be going anywhere but ending at the output terminal.

But again, if you KNOW you have a good 12v battery and you jump the solenoid, then the starter should crank as long as the stater is grounded, the wire running to and from the solenoid is good and clean, and the starter itself is good.

Yes, removing it and bench testing it would help to isolate the issue as well. Sometimes the Bendix get stuck and the starter doe not work as the power is not going to the right location within the starter. I would loosen the starter a bit, tap it with a hammer and HOPE you hear a click noise. If you do, that would be the Bendix moving back into location.

Tighten it back up and then see if it cranks.

The fact that "you did this last year" further leads me to think you have a starter issue....

 

[Coastiejoe]

Did a little reading to make sure I was thinking right...

Your solenoid gets it power to engage from the MPEM, much like a key of the ignition of a car. Once the solenoid gets power at the small terminal, the solenoid should close and allow a strong current of 12 volts to go to the starter. Again, don't have your schematic in front o f me so I can not say what the colors are.

I assume there are two-large red wires, one on each side of the solenoid and one smaller wire which is likely the yellow wire you mentioned. If this is the case, then the yellow wire should give 12v to the solenoid and then the starter should crank. So, if the yellow wire does read 12v and AGAIN,, all contacts are good AND the solenoid is good, then the starter will crank.

Post a picture of your solenoid for me and I will feel better about the various colors and what not.

But I really do think you have a starter issue,,,

 

[atlantis6]

thanks for your help saturday i will remove the starter and i inform you

What is the Bendix (sorry i am from Belgium)

 

[Coastiejoe]

Bendix is the gear that actually engages with the flywheel.

In cars, the Bendix is thrown into the flywheel due to the spinning of the starter. Once the engine starts, it spins faster than the starter can and it forces the Bendix back away from the flywheel.

Jest ski starters/Bendix's may be slightly different but will work on the same principle.

 

[atlantis6]

View attachment Scan 130800001.pdf


hope this can help you

 

[Coastiejoe]

It helps me,,,,
The Black wire with the yellow stripe is your output from the solenoid to the starter. That wire should get 12v when you are pressing the start button.

I assume that the main feed (Other large wire) does in fact have 12v correct? If it does, and you have only 4 to 5 volts on the BLK/Yllw wire, then you have a defective solenoid and or starter as we discussed above. If you remove the BLK/Yllw wire and then get 12 volts at the post you just removed it from, you have a starter issue and or a connection issue, (Bad ground or connection at starter).

 

[bigJake]

Joe, you mentioned possible ground issue. Could the problem be a bad ground wire from the battery?

 

[Coastiejoe]

Joe, you mentioned possible ground issue. Could the problem be a bad ground wire from the battery?

Sure could be.

In theory, the ground is the other wire. If the ground connection is poor, you will not carry the amperage needed to make the starter work. The starter requires more amperage than any other unit as far as generic amps go. Generic meaning not built up by other devices such as how the ignition works.

You MUST have a good wire and a good connection on both the positive and the ground side of things...

In the auto world, with Fords one of the first thing I would do was to bolt on an additional ground wire from the battery to the block and from the block to the body of the car. I bet this solved 30 to 35 percent of all issues. When computers came along this was not the case as they carry their own grounds relative the circuit it was on. For example, the injectors were controlled by a ground that opened and closed in the ECM. Thus, the extra grounds normally meant nothing to them as they were tripped on and off by a dedicated ground.

With starters and motor blocks this is not the case. They still use and like traditional grounds.

 

[atlantis6]

I will remove the black yellow wire and test it for 12 v tomorrow.

i let you know what the results are

tx in advance

 

[Tim75]

One thing no one has checked---
Is the engine seized?
Is the starter gear engaged into flywheel gear and trying to turn a seized engine?
I would not wish this on anyone, but it would explain a lot.

 

[atlantis6]

Motor is not seized luckily i can turn the flywheel around with no problem.

you can see clearly that the starter is not working. But good remark.

tx

 

[atlantis6]

ok today i removed my starter and indeed it did not turn.

i put it between a bench and tried to loosen it and i can now turn it around by hand but when i put 12 v on it it does nothing and when i measure the current battery drops to a few volts.

any idea

 

[Coastiejoe]

As a premium member you can download the service manual that will show how it all comes apart and how to test the internal components. It is probably the most affordable option for you. Simply rebuild it yourself. I've done hundreds in the automotive world. Just a matter if getting your fingers into it and learning a bit.

 

[atlantis6]

i opened my starter today and at first site everything looks good.

But at the part where the brushes are it seems that there are some springs to lift up the brushes these are missing.

maybe is that the reason and if it is then i have been very lucky the last years

 

[Coastiejoe]

Springs are crucial behind the brushes. Without the brushes having good conduct to the armature the electricity basically stops as it does not know where to go.

This is why you showed partial voltage as the current was going into the starter and being absorbed by the wire wrappings that are attached to the casing.

 

[atlantis6]

ok i found the springs back


i openend my starter and i measured it and as far my ohm meter reads it looks ok.

i placed the springs back put it back together in tried it again.

i used jumper kabels to trie and when i connect the - on the battery it sparks quit hard but starter does not turn.

does this means it is bad